Craig Murray Dog Training

[Grace1979]

Grace will be starting a new training program, i was wondering if anyone has taken there dog to this training school before. Its a non food based training.

[Nekhbet]

yup big thumbs up for Craig, you would be hard pressed to find a better trainer. Great man he came down to Geelong the other day for council seminars

By the way good training does not have to be food based.

[huski]

There are loads of ways to motivate a dog that doesn't involve food but you would have to be pretty short sighted to think all dogs can be trained without it. I would be asking them why there is a no food rule for the class before signing up. I don't understand why you wouldn't use a dogs strongest drive to your advantage if you have a very food driven dog.

[pixie_meg]

yup big thumbs up for Craig, you would be hard pressed to find a better trainer. Great man he came down to Geelong the other day for council seminars

By the way good training does not have to be food based.

agree, haven't used Craig but have had a behaviour training session with one of his staff. Really helped us. one session and it was amazing the impact it had. I'd do obedience training with them if i lived closer.

[Nekhbet]

There are loads of ways to motivate a dog that doesn't involve food but you would have to be pretty short sighted to think all dogs can be trained without it. I would be asking them why there is a no food rule for the class before signing up. I don't understand why you wouldn't use a dogs strongest drive to your advantage if you have a very food driven dog.

He has 25 years experience and does work with man tracking, search and rescue, cadaver dogs, assistance dogs etc. He's not an idiot when it comes to dogs, he just doesnt believe that purely food reward is the be all and end all. Trust me, he does plenty of work with the dogs drives.

[huski]

I know who he is and I don't think food rewards are the be all and end all but I don't understand why you'd rule out what is a really useful tool. What about using the method that is best for the dog? You don't need food rewards to train all dogs but not all dogs can be trained without them.

[gsdog2]

There are loads of ways to motivate a dog that doesn't involve food but you would have to be pretty short sighted to think all dogs can be trained without it. I would be asking them why there is a no food rule for the class before signing up. I don't understand why you wouldn't use a dogs strongest drive to your advantage if you have a very food driven dog.

He has 25 years experience and does work with man tracking, search and rescue, cadaver dogs, assistance dogs etc. He's not an idiot when it comes to dogs, he just doesnt believe that purely food reward is the be all and end all. Trust me, he does plenty of work with the dogs drives.

I agree that Craig Murray's a great trainer, but I'd also like to know why he would rule out food? I use prey drive with my GSD, but I know my GR works much better if I use food so why rule it out

[Grace1979]

Im happy to hear that because we are having afew issues with grace at the moment and her breeder put me on to him. Im glad its not food based because it was a waste of time for grace. I took her to the vip dog training and it was only focused on food. Grace hated everything and would just spit it out so itstead of concentrating on training i was worried more about what treat i had to give! The trainer i had made me feel awful because grace just wasent cooperating with her. Im really looking forward to starting its on the 24th and to see how she goes without having to give her food.

[huski]

Sounds like it might be perfect for her! Please let us know how she gets on

My dog is quite food driven but wouldn't even notice me waving food in front of her nose when she was really distracted, it's not an uncommon problem and something the other instructor should have been able to help you with instead of making you feel bad.

[corvus]

I'm yet to find a reward that you can deliver as fast and frequently as food. If I had a dog that didn't want to work for food I would try to find a way to get them working for food because it's just so freaking useful. Even if you almost exclusively train with something else. There's nothing like rapid fire treats when you're trying to teach your dog something.

[kelpiekaye]

I'm yet to find a reward that you can deliver as fast and frequently as food. If I had a dog that didn't want to work for food I would try to find a way to get them working for food because it's just so freaking useful. Even if you almost exclusively train with something else. There's nothing like rapid fire treats when you're trying to teach your dog something.

A pat or "good dog" can be delivered pretty quick. I find training with food too distracting for my girl but Im lucky she just likes to please me and loves doing everything.

[Nekhbet]

I'm yet to find a reward that you can deliver as fast and frequently as food. If I had a dog that didn't want to work for food I would try to find a way to get them working for food because it's just so freaking useful. Even if you almost exclusively train with something else. There's nothing like rapid fire treats when you're trying to teach your dog something.

prey and pack rewards can be just as good if not better. A dog in prey drive will naturally refuse food, what, would you starve it so it moulds into your ideals? There is more to dog training then food rewards, frankly I barely use them with my clients and have a really positive outcome AND quickly as well. I teach people skills to train, not become food dispensers.

I know who he is and I don't think food rewards are the be all and end all but I don't understand why you'd rule out what is a really useful tool.

Obviously you dont since you dont know how he trains.

I think people misunderstand, Craig is NOT about not using rewards, he just doesnt use all positive reinforcement training hence why Grace would have written its not food based training.

[Grace1979]

Sorry if ive confused anyone! The vip training i went to only used food to train for everything. When i rang and spoke to craig he said they dont use food at all. I dont know the difference in training between the two im very very new to the whole training thing. I just think in my situation training without having to have food on me all the time and the fact grace doesnt want it, not having food as a reward might be better.

[Tilly]

Grace1979 - where about are you going for the training? (if you don't mind me asking)

I have contacted them about doing a basic obedience class at Regents Park...

[corvus]

I'm yet to find a reward that you can deliver as fast and frequently as food. If I had a dog that didn't want to work for food I would try to find a way to get them working for food because it's just so freaking useful. Even if you almost exclusively train with something else. There's nothing like rapid fire treats when you're trying to teach your dog something.

prey and pack rewards can be just as good if not better. A dog in prey drive will naturally refuse food, what, would you starve it so it moulds into your ideals? There is more to dog training then food rewards, frankly I barely use them with my clients and have a really positive outcome AND quickly as well. I teach people skills to train, not become food dispensers.

Really? You can distribute prey and pack rewards at a rate of about 1 every 2 seconds? I can get it faster than that if I have treats in my hand. Click treat click treat click treat. The whole reason why I don't use "yes" as a marker word is because it's too slow to say. It's a limiting factor. I would love to hear if someone has found a faster way to reward than a click and treat.

Trying to reward a dog in prey drive with rapid fire treats is kinda stupid, no? I said rapid fire treats are very USEFUL. I didn't say they were all you needed to train a dog. A dog has to eat eventually. No reason why they can't work for their food even if they are a prey driven dog. I'd give it a go purely to have that that rapid fire option in the tool box. If you haven't tried it you should. You can get a really positive outcome REALLY quickly. Being a smart and fast food dispenser is an extremely useful skill for a trainer to have. Doesn't mean you have to ditch the pack and prey rewards or some such.

[Nekhbet]

Really? You can distribute prey and pack rewards at a rate of about 1 every 2 seconds?

This is the problem - unless you see food being shoved into a dogs mouth you think its not 'good enough'. Dogs dont need a continuous stream of food in order to learn. Yes it is one method, fine. For thousands of years dogs have been trained without food rewards and clickers corvus, to incredibly high standards. No need to now say that food is the be all and end all. I also dont enjoy standing in a puddle of drool with a hungry dog (bordeauxs are NOT suitable unless you have a mop and bucket handy at all times )

By the way, for click and treat being such an advantageous method in your opinion it is yet to be picked up by prominent departments around the world as a method of training their dogs. It's all very well for trick training but for general everyday manners and life skills I'll stick to more well rounded concepts then just take positive reinforcement and neglect the rest.

[Grace1979]

Tilly its done at st bernadines school. Starts at 9.30, i like the fact they also concentrate on problems in the home like jumping up, fear problems and everything in between. The trainer i spoke to was very helpful and gave me some hope i will have a well mannered saint, i can only hope. If you want more info just pm me and ill give u the trainers mobile number.

[corvus]

Really? You can distribute prey and pack rewards at a rate of about 1 every 2 seconds?

This is the problem - unless you see food being shoved into a dogs mouth you think its not 'good enough'.

I'm sorry that you seem to think that's what I meant. Far from. It's not a matter of one approach to all training. I tried to make that very clear. People on this forum are always saying how important it is to have as many tools in the toolbox as possible. Rapid fire clicker training is one tool that I think is highly valuable and I would go out of my way to get it in my toolbox if it wasn't there automatically. Same goes for play rewards. I've personally spent months building my low drive dog's desire to play tug. Why? Because I think tug is a valuable activity to have established with my dogs. So it's far from me somehow thinking that a dog must have food shoved in its mouth for every form of training. That is so ridiculous I couldn't quite ignore it. I'm not even saying the OP needs to be doing it. I was just trying to point out that a toolbox with no food in it is missing at least one awesome training tool.

[Nekhbet]

was just trying to point out that a toolbox with no food in it is missing at least one awesome training tool.

not if the dog switches off to food. To have a toolbox means you problem solve and have methods available as a handler to deal with a situation, not that you force your dog to accept every type of reward available. If a dog I have is not interested in food, we dont progress further with it. I find what turns it on, drive it crazy further for it and use it as a reward. Sometimes its a combination of two that makes it super special to the dog. But I dont see the point in plugging away trying to force a reward onto an animal if it values something more highly, especially as the better of two options in a situation.

[huski]

Nekhbet fair enough but what if you have a dog who is extremely food driven? It's all well and good to say I don't understand where Craig is coming from but please explain what you would do with a dog who is extremely motivated by food and not much all.

It's also important to note that "thousands of years" ago you didn't get the range of breeds we did competing in dog sports etc or in fact, doing anything other than what they were originally bred for.