shortstep Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) I don't find it surprising that the Australian Border Collie is supposed to be genetically different from the UK or US ones. BC were imported here and then mated with other breeds. Of course they are going to be different. I agree it is not suprising and many have been saying it for well over 25 years. Remember the border collie wars? Yes that is true Jules, certainly at least a little cross breeding was done. But we do not know for sure what caused the genetic difference. Being isolate away from the main population, being bred in isolation over many years is also known to lead to genetic change. The selection process can not be over looked as a way the change could have happened. Was selecting for show (or no longer selecting for work) what lead to change? It would be interesting to look at OZ working dogs compared to the show dogs and see if they are also different to each other and if the working dogs are any closer to the ISDS dogs. All we can really conclude at this point is that ANKC border collies are different to ISDS border collies. But there is some good that comes from knowing this. We need to keep this in mind when we think of disease, that they will not both have all the same diseases, we have already seen some examples of this. Research will now use this information when looking for genes in either population. Affected rate could also be different in the 2 populations. All of this could be used to imporve health. Crossing OZ show lines to ISDS lines which some people are doing around the world, really is like doing a cross breeding. From what I have seen it is hard to predict which traits will be seen in each pup in the litters, and how they will produce when bred to either show or working dogs in the future. This is an area that should be watched with interest and for those who want to study the benefits or failings of cross breeding this would be an excellent controlled area of study. Edited July 16, 2010 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Umm sorry can't agree with that. Aussies and Borders show or working are very different breeds and have different characteristics. You really have to meet a few to get a better idea. Here's a link to my youtube site where you will see mainly my Aussie, a friends BC and a Toller. http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=bedazzledx2#g/u I want a larger dog too, that's another reason why I like Aussies. They are big and goofy. But I've met many BCs who can be goofy too lol. I love Lottie, she's so cute!! I bet you can't wait to start training for agility! I think the thread was interesting. It seems that show border collies and show Aussies are really very much the same, both being big dogs with many being goofy in behaviour. Both show breeds do not show the trademarks of the working dogs that founded their breed, intelligence and keenness in particular was stated to have been removed from the show breeds which makes them ideal for beginners. The breed that stood out as different was the Working border collie. Which has the characteristics both mental and physical of the original breed and for it's function as a working dog. This breed does not meet the criteria of big and goofy. So she can eliminate Working Border Collies from her choice. As most others have said, picking either of these 2 show breeds, you will not find much difference. I think I would go with the Aussie as I believe they have stable temperaments for the most part. When shopping, in either breed look for lower inbreeding levels. COI that is below 4% in 10 generations, or less than 2% in 6 generations. You will need to ask for this from the breeder which should be printed out for the last few generations on a copy of the pedigree. Ask for proof of all the obvious health tests for each breed. Hips, elbows, 3 DNA tests for CL CEA TNS, Glaucoma and possibly BAER for Show Border Collies. You will need read up on Aussies but they will likely need hips, elbows, 1 DNA test for CEA, possibly BEAR. However in the mean time I would start attending some dog training classes with either of your current dogs! Start learning how to be a dog trainer! Who knows, after a few weeks or dog training under your belt, you might change your mind about what you want to find in your next dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) I agree it is not suprising and many have been saying it for well over 25 years. Remember the border collie wars? There was certainly never any "Border Collie wars" here in Australia. I believe there was and still is a lot of drama in the USA, if that is what you are refering to but it was never an issue here. 25 years ago they weren't even showing Borders in the USA. 25 years ago in the UK they were just starting to show dogs from among their working dogs and here in Australia our show and working dogs often still came from the same litters. Even 15 years ago it was still quite common and now we still have breeders in rural areas that show their dogs and sell the others to local farmers as working dogs. Before agility and dog sports became popular most Australian Borders where used for work unless someone wanted a show dog. There were very few sold as pets. My foundation bitch came from breeders that supplied their local sheep farming community with dogs. From each litter one or two with the best conformation would be successfully shown but the rest went for work on sheep stations. They were not specifially trying to breed 3 sheep trial dogs, but general farm dogs because that is what the farmers wanted. The Aussie Shepherds we have here where imported as show dogs about 15 years ago so are still are fairly new breed. Most members on the public still don't know that they exist. Edited July 16, 2010 by dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Some BC show breeders actually have sheep farms too :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvawilow Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 I'm a little confused, how many registeries for BC's in Australia are there? Haylz if you're just starting out I'd be going for a BC, just from my experience they're easier to re-train when you do a boo boo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Some BC show breeders actually have sheep farms too :D If you believe that sheep / cattle work is the most common and significant selection criteria in the show border collie and is used as the primary selection tool to choose which dogs are bred, then the work it's self may well have lead to the change. We would need to look at the type of work and style of work being done. If the most common selection method is something else, say breeding to the show standard. Then I do not think that a few dogs that work would have any impact on the over all breeds genetic change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) I'm a little confused, how many registeries for BC's in Australia are there?Haylz if you're just starting out I'd be going for a BC, just from my experience they're easier to re-train when you do a boo boo! In Austrtalia there is ANKC, each state has a sheep dog handlers register which will registered border collies and there is the AWBCR which is for purebred (ISDS traceable) working border collies. There are also breeders who use ISDS and ABCA, both working registries. ISDS was the original registry of the breed, it is a working registry and they register dogs around the world, about 8000 a year. They will only accept ABCA or CBCA dogs into their registry. ABCA America and CBCA Canada, are also working registires and the largest in the world, around 30,000 pups a year. They also will register dogs world wide. There are far more registered purebred working bred border collies in the world than there are show registered. Many other countries have large populations of working BC, such as Brazil, Argentina, most of Europe. They are the leading stock work dog in the world. Edited July 16, 2010 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 My foundation bitch came from breeders that supplied their local sheep farming community with dogs. From each litter one or two with the best conformation would be successfully shown but the rest went for work on sheep stations. They were not specifially trying to breed 3 sheep trial dogs, but general farm dogs because that is what the farmers wanted. Fantastic I have been looking for a real working breeder in the ANKC. Can you pm me contact inforamtion I would love to go see some of their dogs working. I am so excieted as every time I get a lead like this to real ANKC wokring dogs it just seems to never come to anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Seriously guys, when did this thread turn into an argument over god knows what? Maybe some of the issues here are better of discussed in a different thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haylz27 Posted July 16, 2010 Author Share Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) Uhh... guys, I wasn't asking you to start arguing over the breeds and about which one is "better". All I was simply asking was the differences. It's gotten a little bit out of hand I think... But thank you to those who actually answered in regards to my opening post. Edited July 16, 2010 by haylz27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Well technically it is arguing within the breed :D I looked up comps for you haylz27 and you have just missed Geelong's Obedience Comp. Can you get to KCC park? That is likely to be the best opportunity to see both breeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Jules knows that deep down she really wants an Aussie . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Tell haylz27 about your border collies leopuppy04! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Tell haylz27 about your border collies leopuppy04! which ones?! the ones I have hidden in the closet, the one dressed in the Aussie suit, or the one everyone thinks is a BC coz she has a tail and everyone says "Oh I've never seen a border collie with brown bits before!" I usually tell them that they still haven't as she's an Aussie and not a BC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 The 2 tri ones will do! snigger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haylz27 Posted July 16, 2010 Author Share Posted July 16, 2010 Well technically it is arguing within the breed I looked up comps for you haylz27 and you have just missed Geelong's Obedience Comp. Can you get to KCC park? That is likely to be the best opportunity to see both breeds. Awww bummer! LOL. I should be able to get down to KCC Park eventually, it's about an hour and a half away from here. Haha, LP I bet you get "Oh nice border collie you have there" ALL the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonduca Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Hi Haylz You posed a very good question in your original post and you were offered some great information by a number of DOLers, in particular DancinBC's. Unfortunately some people like to big note themselves in regards to their knowledge and I particularly find the statemen about someone not being smart enough offensive, this may not have been the intentions, but it was written mindlessly I would say to you when picking a pup, be it BC or Aussie, pick the breed that visually appeals to you because YOU are the one that has to live with it and that is all that counts. I am sure with what ever puppy you pick you will be offered as much help as you ask for, whether it be on here, with your breeder or with your club. Good luck and enjoy your new puppy when it comes along Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayly Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Going back a couple of pages, as far as health testing for Aussies: Hips and elbows DNA for CEA, HC and MDR1 Puppy and adult eye tests BAER testing isn't done although I would get it done if I had a dog with a predominantly white head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay. Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Unlike BCs it sounds like Aussies have an off-switch, and tend to bond with one person (which is perfect for me), they sound goofy, athletic and intelligent as well.The only thing that I am concerned with is that I read that some Aussies can be dominant. I'm not exactly a hard person and have never really had a dominant dog. Is this just with some Aussies? So I will ask you Aussie or BC lovers, what makes you love your breed? And what exactly makes these breeds "different" then each other? You just described my BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay. Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 So in effect, you need to look at the show border collie, the working border collie and the aussie as 3 separate breeds in your quest to find the right dog for your desire to do performance activities. There are also working line Aussies in this country and they bear a very strong resemblance to the working BCs - much lighter and leaner, far more drive. If you're interested in working line BCs for agility, PM Vickie. She'll tell you that unless you are a very good handler, you won't get the best from one. For every one that wins, there will be another barking and spinning in frustration because its handler cannot cue it fast or accurately enough around a course. I think there are easier dogs for a novice handler but I'll defer to Vickie on that. No point in owning the Ferrari of the agility world if you're not capable of driving like Michael Schumacher. My working line BC is teaching me how to do agility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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