Border Collies And Australian Shepherds

[JulesP]

I really don't get your point about colours Shortstep. It really doesn't matter what they are registered as, it matters what they genetically are. Merle does not express on EE red at all btw. If you have seen a EE merle then chances are it is genetically a shaded sable merle.

Same here. I was purely talking about genetics. And because they can't be registered as chocolate merles doesn't mean they aren't called that by breeders/BC people in discussion surely?

Yeah I've never called my shaded sable a black tri, except in a very tongue in cheek way

[benshiva]

"Show line" Border Collies are very good at agility/obedience etc as well. Just thought I'd ad that

Dancinbcs once again a very informative and correct post. Your knowledge of our breed is to be admired

[haylz27]

"Show line" Border Collies are very good at agility/obedience etc as well. Just thought I'd ad that

Dancinbcs once again a very informative and correct post. Your knowledge of our breed is to be admired

Definitely, there's a lot of informative posts here.

As for colour, it doesn't really bother me. I could have a rainbow BC or Aussie and I'd be happy. But I do have a soft spot for the blue merles though. I didn't even know Aussies could be "yellow".

[shortstep]

I really don't get your point about colours Shortstep. It really doesn't matter what they are registered as, it matters what they genetically are. Merle does not express on EE red at all btw. If you have seen a EE merle then chances are it is genetically a shaded sable merle.

Same here. I was purely talking about genetics. And because they can't be registered as chocolate merles doesn't mean they aren't called that by breeders/BC people in discussion surely?

Yeah I've never called my shaded sable a black tri, except in a very tongue in cheek way

Yes the whole thing of putting down what colour the dogs really are is often a tounge in cheek process. The rest of the world just rolls their eyes. Personally I worry when people say that is does not matter what is put down on the reg papers.

So what colour is your sable registered as?

Opps forgot to say, EE red bred to merle, pups can be red merle or red crytic merle, and why I said it would be very dangerouse to breed a EE red from a merle parent to another merle. I am sure with the huge amount of colour breeding doing on right now, many people stock piling as many colours as they can in their dogs, that it will not be too long before this accidently does happen.

Here is a good link with both a hidden and a expressed 'red' merle. http://www.bordercolliecolors.com/bordercolliecolors.ee.html

Edited July 15, 2010 by shortstep

[shortstep]

Sorry missed this post.

And I cannot let that sort of arrogant reply go either. Your experience is obviously with current working line Borders, mine is with a variety of show, agility, obedience and some working dogs. There was no misinformation in my post but my observations over many years and comments from experienced trainers who have owned and trained both breeds in a variety of disiplines.

Me, I have only been in the breed for 20 + years, working sheep dogs only, have a little experince in agility. Did reseuce for years, rehomed almost 300 dogs. Due to my minimal experince with working border collies I have many mentors. Perhaps I should include you as a mentor in the future. I am looking to buy a stud dog from the UK, can I run the lines by you to see what you think of their working and health histories and what I could likely expect in the offspring?

QUOTE

1. World wide, border collies are the breed of choice for cattle work. More border collies work cattle world wide (and in Australia) than any other breed. Your statements about border collies use of force and working cattle are unfounded and in accurate. The most expensive working dog ever sold at a sale (over $23000.00 US) was a working border collie for cattle work at the Red Bluff Bull and Dog sale.

Look around the web a bit to educate your self on this topic. Here is just one local (of many thousands of border collie breeders for cattle work world wide) http://www.datawave.net.au/~djsims/

I was refering to the origins of the breeds not what they are used for today and no one can deny that Borders originated as sheep dogs in the UK, while Aussies where developed in th USA as multi purpose herders. Our show, obedience and agility line Borders in Australia are descended from sheep dogs.

Yes so was I. Border collie have been working cattle from their very beginnings. Also goats, pigs, birds and a few other odds and ends. They have continued to do so around the world and still do today. UK has more sheep so the border collie is best know for sheep, however do not think for one second they have not been working cattle or what ever else presented for as long as they have existed.

Aussies first came to the the US with a load of sheep from Spain, least that is the story I was told. However the US is full of cattle so that is what they were best know for, at least at the time they were first registered. Like most farm dogs they worked what ever is on the farm.

QUOTE

2. Border collies do not go off course in agility because of their temperaments or intelligence. They go off course because their handler is not mentally fast enough to tell them where to go in time or their handler is not smart enough to train the dog and the most frequent reason border collies go off course because their handler spends most of their time blameing the dog instead of seeing they are the root of the problem!

In fact border collies have a tremendous ability to follow direction, see and differentiate handler cues and also make independent decisions when needed. this is one of many reasons they excel in agility.

Nowhere did I mention dogs going off course in agility but if they do it can be because the handler gave them the wrong cue or because the dog thought of a more interesting way to do it. I was actually refering to obedience trials where Borders often anticipate or do things a bit different to break up the boredom. It is usually the dogs most likely to score the highest that do it. They can be brilliant or bomb out spectacularly, but are less likely to be consistently average.

When working stock they follow direction perfectly but heeling around an obedience ring can be boring and this leads to them doing their own thing at times.

Me, I repeat the same idea. A working border collie that gets board in the obedience ring is not due to their intelligence it is due to having a boring handler. It is an old rule of dog training, don't blame the dog look to the handler to find the problem.

QUOTE

3. Border collies are not less calm than aussies. Aussies used to be known as the bouncing balls as they are prone to bounce around and bark at you when you run them in agility. (This is their working style, upright loosed eyed, bounce and bark). Contrast this to the working border collie style of work which is quite, steady and deliberate, commonly refered to as stealth in appearance.

All the Aussies I know seem to be less likely than the Borders to be on their toes ready for action. I have seen plenty of Borders bounce around, bark and even nip their owners clothes when working in agility, especially those from agility lines, but have never seen an Aussie do it. Maybe some do it and I just haven't seen them because there are not nearly as many competing and the ones I do know that compete are from Aussie show lines. Some Borders are steady, deliberate and work with stealth as they should, but many are not when it comes to agility.

Temperaments and energy levels vary a lot in individual dogs of both breeds, from lounge lizards to hyper but overall I see more easy going Aussies and friends that have owned both have commented that Aussies live life at a slower pace than the Borders.

Me, I am basing my comments on Aussies from seeing thousands over 50 years and having owned one. Granted the dog I owned was prior to them having any sort of registry and was certainly not show bred. The dogs I saw were mostly doing agility, obedience or pet herding. I believe there is even a kennel called Bouncing Ball. So they no longer bounce? Perhaps they have changed that much as to no longer have the bouncing barking upright working style, and have lost the spark they once had. I will bow to your experience with the breed and take your word for it.

Edited July 15, 2010 by shortstep

[Janba]

Me, I have only been in the breed for 20 + years, working sheep dogs only, have a little experince in agility. Did reseuce for years, rehomed almost 300 dogs. Due to my minimal experince with working border collies I have many mentors. Perhaps I should include you as a mentor in the future. I am looking to buy a stud dog from the UK, can I run the lines by you to see what you think of their working and health histories and what I could likely expect in the offspring?

You can run it by me and tell me please if you are going to bring the dog out duel registered I love my ISDS dog.

[wuffles]

This thread has gotten a bit crazy, I was looking forward to hearing people's ideas on the differences and what was good about each but it seems to have gone a different way

You would be welcome to come meet my Aussie haylz if we lived in the same place!

[benshiva]

This thread has gotten a bit crazy, I was looking forward to hearing people's ideas on the differences and what was good about each but it seems to have gone a different way

You would be welcome to come meet my Aussie haylz if we lived in the same place!

It certainly has.

Haylz I'd go to as many trials as I could and chat to people there and watch the dogs working in the ring. Good luck with your search. The right dog for you is out there somewhere

[Gayle.]

So I will ask you Aussie or BC lovers, what makes you love your breed?

I will answer this from Hayley's opening post.

My Aussies are my friends. And like good friends, they are easy to get along with and easy to please. And they like being with me and everything about them confirms that. It's a good relationship. I have met lots of Aussies since having them myself and haven't met one I haven't liked. In general, they are a friendly, happy, easy to get along with breed although some take a bit to warm up to strangers.

My girl Dusty is one, she's a bit stand-offish but I like that about her as she prefers to make friends slowly, unlike Benson who's never met a stranger and would happily bowl everyone over in his enthusiasm to prove he's your best buddy.

I now have three, with our new puppy and I must say, that as babies they are incredibly easy to live with. Only one of mine has been a chewer and even he wasn't too bad...a few shoes lost their straps and a few iPod earbuds were separated from their cords, but on the whole, minimal destruction. Our new little guy hasn't chewed anything, and Dusty never has either.

They tend to get along well with other dogs and other breeds, and mine are all very mindful of our old, fragile Lhasa Apso and play differently with her than with each other. Even the puppy picked up very quickly that he can't be rough with her.

Like others have said, they are clowns and will definitely put a smile on your face. Benson is the most clownish of mine, he has this cheeky outgoing nature that makes everyone fall in love with him.

[Sayly]

I think that both breeds would have individuals that would suit you and plenty that wouldn't. Just try and meet as many as you can while you are making up your mind and in the end go with your heart. I think that now you have narrowed it down to two breeds it might be more about finding the right pup instead of the right breed.

[haylz27]

This thread has gotten a bit crazy, I was looking forward to hearing people's ideas on the differences and what was good about each but it seems to have gone a different way

You would be welcome to come meet my Aussie haylz if we lived in the same place!

I have to agree with you. I'd like to hear more about the differences of the breeds as well.

---

"Haylz I'd go to as many trials as I could and chat to people there and watch the dogs working in the ring. Good luck with your search. The right dog for you is out there somewhere"

That's a great idea, now I have to find some trials near me. and thank you!

Edited July 15, 2010 by haylz27

[Guest Clover]

You will find plenty of trials to go to in the Geelong area .

Just from personal experience i find the Border Collies (working line) to be a lot calmer when not training or working, not so much 'Bull in a china shop' all the time .

[dancinbcs]

"Show line" Border Collies are very good at agility/obedience etc as well. Just thought I'd ad that

Dancinbcs once again a very informative and correct post. Your knowledge of our breed is to be admired

Thanks Benshiva and I agree with your suggestion that for a beginner in agility and obedience a show line Border Collie would be ideal. They are happy to live in suburbia, easy to train and generally more laid back than those bred purely for work or agility. There are exceptions so an experienced breeder that knows how to pick temperament and ability on their puppies would be a good idea. You can get all in the one litter, some that want to herd, some that are going to be easy to train in sports and some that just want to be lap dogs if they get half a chance. Matching the puppy to right home is what it is all about.

BTW my comments about Borders being smarter and easier to train than Aussies come from friends that have owned and trained both and always comment on this difference. Some have stuck with Aussies and others have returned to Borders but they all seem to have the same opinion that Borders are generally smarter and easier to train. There are some really smart Aussies but there are also some really thick ones. With Borders there is less variance from the smartest to not so smart.

[Guest Clover]

They are happy to live in suburbia, easy to train and generally more laid back than those bred purely for work or agility.

Maybe our Victorian showline BCs are broken . They seem to be more 'intense' than the workers. You go to a Flyball comp here most of the time the workers are sleeping in between racing, but you can hear the others barking and carrying on in their crates .

Not that i am promoting the working line dogs, or Border Collies in general. Realy go with what you like, not what others like.

[Beth.]

Thought I'd add a reply . I was always going to get a border collie - even to the point where I had started contacting breeders etc - then I heard about the Aussies, googled them (i'd never heard of them!!), I've always liked bigger dogs, which is the main reason I went with the Aussie...

I live in a house with both a border collie (a farm bred dog) and my Aussie, and they both love to be on the go - all day if we allow!! They also LOVE playing together, and they chase and run and run some more....

I do find that my friends border,Tilly, (I rent with another couple uni students) is very very very attached to her owner, alot more so then Lottie is in a way - Lotties happy to go and say hello to everyone, where as Tilly is only really friendly with people she knows, and can be very reserved with others, and not nice with men (but this was more to do with her upbringing...).

Both these dogs are great to live with - during the days they are outside dogs - Tilly does bark for attention, but as soon as you tell her to stop she does.

Lottie, my aussie, is a very very easy dog to live with - she's not noisy, can leave outside, can be inside, can tether her up, can crate her, is lots of fun, constantly makes me laugh, is a real cuddle bum, is a real mummys girl, has lots of energy, loves working and is going really nicely with her obedience training!! she's also a very calm dog out and about, happy to just sit back and watch whats going on.

She is my first dog, and I'm very lucky to have had such an easy first dog, it's made the experience alot of fun .

My friend doesn't do agility, except for at parks, but if she did, boy would she be good!!! When Lotties at the age i'll be bringing her along with me, hehehe!!! I've been going to lots of agility trials lately, just checking out what it's like, and I have a friend who competes her Aussies and they are QUICK!!!! and very driven dogs!!!

I agree with the comment that the Aussies are heavier and bigger, so this will be a disadvantage in the agility ring - I'm pretty sure Lottie will be in the highest category because she's a big girl!!

I think if you do your research and find a good breeder, either breed is going to be great (I actually wouldn't be surprised if I own a border collie one day!!!). I love my flatmates border collie, she's a great dog, and I love Lottie (Just a little ) and they love each other, hehe!!

[haylz27]

You will find plenty of trials to go to in the Geelong area .

Guess I will have to start looking! Might start with the Geelong Obedience Club... They might have some running but I'm not sure.

Thought I'd add a reply :D . I was always going to get a border collie - even to the point where I had started contacting breeders etc - then I heard about the Aussies, googled them (i'd never heard of them!!), I've always liked bigger dogs, which is the main reason I went with the Aussie...

I live in a house with both a border collie (a farm bred dog) and my Aussie, and they both love to be on the go - all day if we allow!! They also LOVE playing together, and they chase and run and run some more....

I do find that my friends border,Tilly, (I rent with another couple uni students) is very very very attached to her owner, alot more so then Lottie is in a way - Lotties happy to go and say hello to everyone, where as Tilly is only really friendly with people she knows, and can be very reserved with others, and not nice with men (but this was more to do with her upbringing...).

Both these dogs are great to live with - during the days they are outside dogs - Tilly does bark for attention, but as soon as you tell her to stop she does.

Lottie, my aussie, is a very very easy dog to live with - she's not noisy, can leave outside, can be inside, can tether her up, can crate her, is lots of fun, constantly makes me laugh, is a real cuddle bum, is a real mummys girl, has lots of energy, loves working and is going really nicely with her obedience training!! she's also a very calm dog out and about, happy to just sit back and watch whats going on.

She is my first dog, and I'm very lucky to have had such an easy first dog, it's made the experience alot of fun :D .

My friend doesn't do agility, except for at parks, but if she did, boy would she be good!!! When Lotties at the age i'll be bringing her along with me, hehehe!!! I've been going to lots of agility trials lately, just checking out what it's like, and I have a friend who competes her Aussies and they are QUICK!!!! and very driven dogs!!!

I agree with the comment that the Aussies are heavier and bigger, so this will be a disadvantage in the agility ring - I'm pretty sure Lottie will be in the highest category because she's a big girl!!

I think if you do your research and find a good breeder, either breed is going to be great :D (I actually wouldn't be surprised if I own a border collie one day!!!). I love my flatmates border collie, she's a great dog, and I love Lottie (Just a little ) and they love each other, hehe!!

I want a larger dog too, that's another reason why I like Aussies. They are big and goofy. But I've met many BCs who can be goofy too lol.

I love Lottie, she's so cute!! :D I bet you can't wait to start training for agility!

[wuffles]

I think the thread was interesting.

It seems that show border collies and show Aussies are really very much the same, both being big dogs with many being goofy in behaviour. Both show breeds do not show the trademarks of the working dogs that founded their breed, intelligence and keenness in particular was stated to have been removed from the show breeds which makes them ideal for beginners.

My show-bred Aussie is definitely still intelligent and keen

Edited July 15, 2010 by wuffles

[Nik]

I have a show line Aussie who is very intelligent and keen and does very well at herding (for a dog and handler with no training at it!) Together a few weeks ago, at her first attempt, Annie and myself, mostly by ourselves but sometimes helped by a friend on a motorbike and his kelpie, moved 1200 ewes and lambs of various ages. She displayed tireless behavior, and from what I've read up on the breed, worked true to her breed.

Haylz, I love my Aussie. Like many other Aussie owners on here, I was going to get a border collie until I found this breed. We previously has a bc x kelpie (my avatar girl), and wanted something like her but knew that there was way less predictability with a cross I had contacted many bc breeders and were in a few waiting lists for litters. But we wanted something a little different, and with 4 young boys wanted a dig that would be calm and steady (mostly). I've found that with Annie. She's all that I ever asked for.

[JulesP]

I don't find it surprising that the Australian Border Collie is supposed to be genetically different from the UK or US ones. BC were imported here and then mated with other breeds. Of course they are going to be different.

Sorry haylz27 there is rather intense angst about show and working border collies!

I currently have 3 borders and they are all so different. That is why I am finding it hard to give differences in the breeds.

Brock is a big dog. He is super calm and quiet and totally loves every person he meets. He is totally non aggressive with other dogs, even if they bite him! When off lead he would rather go chat to people then other dogs. He was very slow at agility. He could get to CD level in obedience and works quite nicely. He is smart in an almost human way! A lovely, easy to live with dog.

Poppy his half sister is super intense, very focused and is leaves no doubt that I am her human. She could pretty much do any dog sport. She is on the smaller side. She is also pretty easy to live with. Has a great off switch but is on the instant I ask. She is not keen on other dogs, I call her the fun police!

Amber is a very sunny puppy. Always happy. Good with people and dogs. A bit more high energy but I can still take her out to a cafe and have her sit quietly. And she is 6 months old. I imagine she would do well in any dog sport too.

All 3 dogs are pretty soft and don't respond at all well to firm corrections.

[leopuppy04]

BTW my comments about Borders being smarter and easier to train than Aussies come from friends that have owned and trained both and always comment on this difference. Some have stuck with Aussies and others have returned to Borders but they all seem to have the same opinion that Borders are generally smarter and easier to train. There are some really smart Aussies but there are also some really thick ones. With Borders there is less variance from the smartest to not so smart.

I'd have to agree with you here dancinbc's! I think you understand both breeds really well. I definitely think that some Aussies are really thick (I own one :D ). Can't say anything for BC's coz I've never had one and only 'lived' temporarily with others. I'd have to say that yes, each can be as smart as the other, but there is probably more 'consistency' within the BC breed in terms of intelligence... or shall we say how quickly they pick things up

Ok I'll bite. I take great offence to this comment. Don't know if you're baiting on purpose but I'm a little sick and tired of the snide comments relating to "show" Border Collies. I happen to think (as do MANY of the people who own my dogs) that MY show line Border Collies are extremely intelligent and not that far removed from their working ancestors. I've met MANY different show line Borders in my years in the breed and have found among them some of the MOST intelligent dogs I've ever met! I can't imagine manic goofy Border Collies passing their Delta tests and happily working at Westmead Children's Hospital but guess what, THEY DO!!!

I won't comment anymore as I promised myself not to EVER bite again when shit like this is posted on this forum. Backing out now.

Good luck Haylz with your choice. You will find the right dog for you, of that I have no doubt

I agree Benshiva. Even though we talk of different breeds, I strive with my breeding to maintain the 'good looks' of the Aussie while also maintaing their ability to do what they were naturally bred to do. I want a breed to do it all, because after all the Aussie is known as the "jack of all trades'