Border Collies And Australian Shepherds

[Sayly]

Haylz - I think you would be best to try and meet more Aussies, especially some doing agility and obedience.

I think finding the right breeder in either breed is important and making sure they know what you want to do with the dog. Let them know you don't want a dominant dog. A good breeder should be happy and willing to help you out and help with picking the right puppy for you.

[leopuppy04]

3. Border collies are not less calm than aussies. Aussies used to be known as the bouncing balls as they are prone to bounce around and bark at you when you run them in agility. (This is their working style, upright loosed eyed, bounce and bark). Contrast this to the working border collie style of work which is quite, steady and deliberate, commonly refered to as stealth in appearance.

All the Aussies I know seem to be less likely than the Borders to be on their toes ready for action. I have seen plenty of Borders bounce around, bark and even nip their owners clothes when working in agility, especially those from agility lines, but have never seen an Aussie do it. Maybe some do it and I just haven't seen them because there are not nearly as many competing and the ones I do know that compete are from Aussie show lines. Some Borders are steady, deliberate and work with stealth as they should, but many are not when it comes to agility.

Temperaments and energy levels vary a lot in individual dogs of both breeds, from lounge lizards to hyper but overall I see more easy going Aussies and friends that have owned both have commented that Aussies live life at a slower pace than the Borders.

Have to say - it's very true the Aussies are an upright worker and you see this all the time at the start line. How many BC's do you see crouched down ready to go, vs the Aussies who tend to sit very upright and square. Yet both can bolt out of the box quick as the other :p

[Kavik]

The working Aussie I am particularly thinking about was also imported.

Me too. It was a red merle (is that the right terminology for Aussies? Was talking to a Border person who said it would be choc merle in Borders).

Definitely you want to be able to live with and love the breed for what it is, not just because it is the most popular at sports.

While I have had a few people try to convert me to a Border for my next dog, and I know several lovely ones that I like a lot (most from the same breeder), not sure they are really 'me'. I like my pointy sharp featured short haired dogs :p Luckily for me there is not only my current first pick of Kelpie but a couple of other breeds as well that fit my preference and are also great for sports should I decide to try something different

[Sayly]

Yeah red merle is the right terminology. :p Red in Aussies equals chocolate in BCs.

[shortstep]

Yeah red merle is the right terminology. :p Red in Aussies equals chocolate in BCs.

Well sort of as far as border collies, but you have to know how to understand the registered colours.

In Australia they call the colour red chocolate. But they only allow blue merles to be registered. So chocolate merles are registered as blue merles or chocolates. Red in Australia refers to EE red and this can also come in merle, but the merle pattern is often hidden. So you might have a Red (EE) merle, but you can not register it as that colour either so they are registered as reds. Now this could be very dangerous as you might breed a red (red EE merle) to a blue merle and not realize what you are doing, but that is another story.

Now in the UK where the breed comes from and most of the rest of the world, reds or red tris or red merles or red tri merles are called red or red tri or red merles or red tri merle and are registered as the colour they really are instead of a colour they are not. They do not use the word chocolate in border collies ever. When the first EE reds from Australia were imported, there was no name for that colour so most registries call them Aussie Reds but it is still an issue and gets confused.

This all make for great fun when you import a Red Tri merle into Australia. they must recognize and registered the imports. But it is not a Red Tri Merle in Australia. First off you can not have a Red Tri or a Red Merle in Australia, so that is out. So it would have to be chocolate or a blue merle or a black tri, but could never a chocolate tri and never a chocolate merle and most assuredly never ever a chocolate tri merle.

Hope that was clear. LOL

Edited July 15, 2010 by shortstep

[Perry's Mum]

I have a long coated Koolie who has been mistaken at different times by both Border Collie breeders and Aussie breeders as one of their lines. Perry was rescued from a farm. The woman who rescued her also has several Koolies which she does high level agility with. A Koolie in NZ has just taken out an agility title. Koolies definitely have off switches - mine is lying in the back garden sunning her tummy at the moment after an hour of chasing the ball. Koolies come in solids and merles and a wide variety of colours.

This is Perry

This is Jessie who belonged to a friend

Two short haired red merle Koolie pups

A red medium coated Koolie whose name I don't know

Edited July 15, 2010 by Perry's Mum

[shortstep]

I have a long coated Koolie who has been mistaken at different times by both Border Collie breeders and Aussie breeders as one of their lines. Perry was rescued from a farm. The woman who rescued her also has several Koolies which she does high level agility with. A Koolie in NZ has just taken out an agility title. Koolies definitely have off switches - mine is lying in the back garden sunning her tummy at the moment after an hour of chasing the ball.

This is Perry

This is Jessie who belonged to a friend

Two short haired red merle Koolie pups

A red medium coated Koolie whose name I don't know

That second dog is a slate merle, translation a dilute(Blue) blue merle. Pretty dogs!

[Lucy's mama]

Yeah red merle is the right terminology. :p Red in Aussies equals chocolate in BCs.

Well sort of as far as border collies, but you have to know how to understand the registered colours.

In Australia they call the colour red chocolate. But they only allow blue merles to be registered. So chocolate merles are registered as blue merles or chocolates. Red in Australia refers to EE red and this can also come in merle, but the merle pattern is often hidden. So you might have a Red (EE) merle, but you can not register it as that colour either so they are registered as reds. Now this could be very dangerous as you might breed a red (red EE merle) to a blue merle and not realize what you are doing, but that is another story.

Now in the UK where the breed comes from and most of the rest of the world, reds or red tris or red merles or red tri merles are called red or red tri or red merles or red tri merle and are registered as the colour they really are instead of a colour they are not. They do not use the word chocolate in border collies ever. When the first EE reds from Australia were imported, there was no name for that colour so most registries call them Aussie Reds but it is still an issue and gets confused.

This all make for great fun when you import a Red Tri merle into Australia. they must recognize and registered the imports. But it is not a Red Tri Merle in Australia. First off you can not have a Red Tri or a Red Merle in Australia, so that is out. So it would have to be chocolate or a blue merle or a black tri, but could never a chocolate tri and never a chocolate merle and most assuredly never ever a chocolate tri merle.

Hope that was clear. LOL

Clear as mud lol. So does that mean you lie on paper about colour if you have a chocolate merle or chiocolate tri? You would think they would accept them on the register or not, rather than say they are blue when they are chocolate.

What does merle EE mean?

Edited July 15, 2010 by Lucy's mama

[shortstep]

Clear as mud lol. So does that mean you lie on paper about colour if you have a chocolate merle or chiocolate tri?

You would have to ask some one who has one. The few I have asked about were all registered as chcolates.

[Sayly]

Yeah red merle is the right terminology. Red in Aussies equals chocolate in BCs.

Well sort of as far as border collies, but you have to know how to understand the registered colours.

Ok... What I meant was that here in Australia, what are called chocolates in BCs are the same colour as 'reds' in Aussies. They have the red/brown noses. Reds in BCs have black noses yes? So how did I 'sort of' get it right/wrong? :p

[Sayly]

LM - This website explains the EE in Aussies. We call it yellow in Aussies, it causes a red/yellow coat colour with the black nose.

http://www.ashgi.org/color/yellow_aussies.htm

[shortstep]

Yeah red merle is the right terminology. Red in Aussies equals chocolate in BCs.

Well sort of as far as border collies, but you have to know how to understand the registered colours.

Ok... What I meant was that here in Australia, what are called chocolates in BCs are the same colour as 'reds' in Aussies. They have the red/brown noses. Reds in BCs have black noses yes? So how did I 'sort of' get it right/wrong? :p

I did not mean you got anything wrong, sorry if you felt that. It is just not a straight across change. For example your very pretty Red Tri Merle (if a border collie) would not be a Chocolate Tri Merle border collie, however it could be registered as a Chocolate or a Blue Merle or a Black Tri border collie, that what I meant.

The problem is in the border collie ANKC standard, that has most of the colours but they do not all allow the genetic possibilities of those colours. They allow for only Black, Chocolate, Blue, Blue Merle and Black Tri.

Tri gene attaches to any colour, so there are Chocolate Tris, Blue Tirs, Lilac Tris (dilute chocolate and tri) and so on.

Merle can affect any colour, so there are Chocolate Merles, Slate merles (dilute Blue Merle), Lilac Merles (dilute chocolate merle) and so on.

Dilute can affect any colour not just black (Blue), so there can be Lilacs (dilute chocolate) and so on.

There is also clear and shaded sable in border collies. These are registered as EE reds or Black Tris in ANKC.

So the whole thing is a big mess and there does not seem to be an desire to modernize the standard to the current knowledge of colour genetics. So people just deal with it the best they can I guess.

Edited to add, most standards basically say that the border collie comes in a lot of colours but should not be all white, and that colour does not affect the working ability of the dog.

Edited to add, here is the UK Kennel Club, the home of the border collie standard on colour

Colour; Variety of colours permissible. White should never predominate.

NZ KC same as above.

AKC (USA) Color; The Border Collie appears in all colors or combination of colors and/or markings. Solid color, bi-color, tri-color, merle and sable dogs are to be judged equally with no one color or pattern preferred over another. White markings may be clear white or ticked to any degree. Random white patches on the body and head are permissible but should not predominate. Color and markings are always secondary to physical evaluation and gait.

Canada does not have a show standard for border collies.

Edited July 15, 2010 by shortstep

[shortstep]

LM - This website explains the EE in Aussies. We call it yellow in Aussies, it causes a red/yellow coat colour with the black nose.

http://www.ashgi.org/color/yellow_aussies.htm

Yes exactly.

[aussielover]

Haylz27- Have you ever done agility before?

Do you want to be very competitive?

If the answer is no, then I'd say an aussie would be suitable. Though, not saying an aussie can't be competitive at agility.

When we were looking at breeds we were deciding between brittanys, tollers, aussies and BCs.

We decided to go with working breeds and then decided on the aussie because they seemed calmer.

To me, they had the best of looks and temperament. They are lovely looking dogs, and have the personality of a lab or golden (maybe not as exuberant) and make great family pets and have potential for any dog sport.

Let us know what you decide, i love both borders and aussies but wouldn't have a border unless I was doing a dog sport, or was working them in some way.

Also, the border comes in a short coat which is very handy if you live in a hot climate or tick area (imo)

[Silvawilow]

Haylz have you or do you currently compete in dog sports? I have Aussie's and my other dog (first dog) Kiz is a working BC x who I got off a dairy farm. If I could turn back time I would much rather have started with in dog sports with an Aussie as just from my own experience they're more laid back whereas Kiz is like driving a high powered sports car when you've never driven a car before!

If you're seriously into obedience I'd be steering more towards the Aussie cause (again from own experience) they're more egar to please and don't deviate from the plan as much, LOL. But if agility's and herding are more what you're into then personally I'd be swaying to a BC.

[Kavik]

Only slightly OT talking about people with first agility dogs.

There is a Staffy x Border Collie at one of my clubs. OMG AMAZING dog! Owner is a first time agility competitor and is doing a fantastic job! This dog makes Kaos look lazy! Her handling is fantastic, and with this dog is has to be, as it is one of those that if you are not spot on with your handling she (I think is a female?) will be on the other side of the ring before you know it! A very high powered dog that is going great guns. It does give you a steep learning curve though if you get one like that!

[haylz27]

Wow, wasn't expecting this many answers! I'll read them and reply when I get home.

Edit: Ok guys I don't even know where to start, there's so much to reply to.

Let me just clarify that I do not live on a large property. We have a large backyard though with two other family dogs (beagle x nearly 2 years, jrt x 7 years).

I also wanted to add that I have never competed in agility or anything like that. This would be my first time learning about it. I wouldn't say that I want to be overly competitive it's just something that I want to do for fun. I doubt that if I get either then he/she will be competing in herding trials, because I have no access to anything like that and would rather just compete in agility (hell, even if it's backyard agility!) I don't know much about obedience at the moment but I think I'd enjoy it. I love teaching my beagle tricks and obedience.

Many breeders that I have spoken to over email a while ago recommended males to me, like a few of you said.

Great comment LP! I've actually seen your dogs competing in agility on Youtube a while ago.

I still think I am leaning towards an Aussie. They don't sound as "obsessive" and full on as BCs, and by the sounds of it I wouldn't be able to handle a working BC but of course I will keep researching.

Sorry my post is all over the place, I'm kind of in a hurry! I'll be back to reply later tonight... Thanks everyone.

Edited July 15, 2010 by haylz27

[JulesP]

I wouldn't describe my borders as obsessive or full on Having seen a fair bit of both breed I really don't think you can generalize too much.

I really don't get your point about colours Shortstep. It really doesn't matter what they are registered as, it matters what they genetically are. Merle does not express on EE red at all btw. If you have seen a EE merle then chances are it is genetically a shaded sable merle.

[Sayly]

I really don't get your point about colours Shortstep. It really doesn't matter what they are registered as, it matters what they genetically are. Merle does not express on EE red at all btw. If you have seen a EE merle then chances are it is genetically a shaded sable merle.

Same here. I was purely talking about genetics. And because they can't be registered as chocolate merles doesn't mean they aren't called that by breeders/BC people in discussion surely?

[Lucy's mama]

Thanks. Excellent informative site. I have book marked it.