Aggressive Behaviour Between My 2 Females Dogs

[SoL]

I actually would say that the chances of having your two girls co-habit together is pretty slim.

If you don't think there's any real damage then you really don't know bull breeds that well.

Bitches bear grudges. They don't forget and whilst they may back off for the time being, the time will come again where they will set to and next time you may not be so lucky as to be able to seperate them. Hell, you might not even be there to try and then you are going to come home to either one girl or no girls at all. They are called bitches for a reason, and a trigger can be something you would never have perceived to be a trigger at all.

Desexing will not be the answer.

Separation is.

You need (and quickly) separate runs to ensure their safety when you leave them alone. For the moment you need to separate them and yes, there may be a time where they can be re-introduced (when ALL injuries have completely healed) but you can NEVER leave them unsupervised again and you MUST learn to read their body language. Keep them exercised mentally and physically and NEVER leave balls, bones, food or other prized possessions out in the yard. Feed them in their separate runs and keep the doors shut whilst they are feeding.

Good luck with the situation and please have respect for what they have done and what they can do in the future.

[tdierikx]

My girls have never fought when alone together - they generally just lie down and sleep until I get home... it's only ever been when I'm home that they have had any of their big fights.

Both of my girls are desexed, and both have alpha tendencies. There is a 6.5 year age gap between my girls, but the older girl is far from infirm.

You feel so totally helpless when it happens because two 30kg dogs ripping into each other and refusing to stop are impossible to break up - you pull one back out of the fight and the other stupid bloody dog keeps coming... grrr!

Currently, my girls are separate. One is crated when the other is allowed to run loose, and I take turns with them being loose/crated. They are fine with that arrangement and the crated dog doesn't show any aggression while the other is free - they will even lick each other through the crate, but I don't encourage that.

I'm actually pretty amazed at how well my girls have adjusted to the new arrangements - seeing that neither had been crated before in their lives...

T.

[geo]

Seems to me two dogs fought, not one. All dogs are potentially aggressive - its the relationship between these dogs that's the issue. Don't look to only one dog as the problem.

You can probably have the two dogs together under supervision if you are aware of what you are doing - that's where professional help comes in.

The rule of thumb to minimise the risk of this kind of behaviour is not to have two dogs that are the same gender and close together in age and size. You've got just that.

I agree, my 1 year old male and 4 year old bitch have had a couple of fights, he's maturing and is becoming protective over his food, she see's that as him trying to usurp her and it's caused a bit of tension, but only around food. She is dominant and in every other way a complete bitch to the poor little fella who is bigger and stronger than she is.

Food time is always seperated and scraps mopped up, play time with me is seperated. I can see the jealousy thing may become an issue, it's funny it hasn't bothered the Bitch for 1 year but now he's maturing she's uping the auntie. At the momnet he knows his place, and i treat him as the lower dog, his food though he will fight over.

They play together all day long though besides that, hunt things together and play fight taking turns on submitting, i don't play tug'o'war with them together as that seems to challenge the older one as he can easily win so she just gives him the eveil eyes to let go.

So if anyone knows a good behaviorist in the NT, please let me know.

[Bullbreedlover]

All good sound advise here. Except for the fact that the two may come around to each other.

I would also recommend that these two bitches were never placed in a situation again where they had to test their dominance over each other.

We have bred and owned British Bulldogs(mother/daughter) whom were raised together and got along fine when the daughter was still young. Once she reached maturity it was on for young and old, so they were never placed in a situation where they could ever hurt each other again.

I have run two Bullmastiffs together(mother/daughter) and I have never had a problem as I have an alpha bitch and everyone else knows it.

You have two cross breed bitches whose background is so very head strong.Once they have fought, they will continue to always test the boundaries. It is not worth the blood shed nor heartache

[JADED81]

Thanks so much guys to all of you. They have been seperated since the incident my partner and i took them for a walk last night and the Purebredd Bulldog once again tried to attack the Staffyx - but we were able to control the situation with the leads. We have a massive back yard so will be seperating the area so both dogs can run freely during the day as everyone has suggested :-) The bulldog obviously wont get over the incident and keeps trying to have a go so a lot more dominace is being used on our part - i feel a lot more confident after all your comments with being able to keep them both - by keeping them seperated and applying a hell of a lot more dominance on my part. We just now have to try to work with the behaviourilist and us as owners to help them be in the same room when we are all at home. BUt as you all know we love the dogs and will try everything ensuring there both safe as well as us :-)

[poodlefan]

Thanks so much guys to all of you. They have been seperated since the incident my partner and i took them for a walk last night and the Purebredd Bulldog once again tried to attack the Staffyx - but we were able to control the situation with the leads. We have a massive back yard so will be seperating the area so both dogs can run freely during the day as everyone has suggested :-) The bulldog obviously wont get over the incident and keeps trying to have a go so a lot more dominace is being used on our part - i feel a lot more confident after all your comments with being able to keep them both - by keeping them seperated and applying a hell of a lot more dominance on my part. We just now have to try to work with the behaviourilist and us as owners to help them be in the same room when we are all at home. BUt as you all know we love the dogs and will try everything ensuring there both safe as well as us :-)

If this continues, I think rehoming one dog would be in both their best interests. Imagine the stress of being at risk of attack (or wanting to) 24/7. No fun for either dog and certainly no fun for you when a carelessly left open door can create a blood bath.

Hopefully it won't come to that but this is an issue to talk over with a behaviorist.

Edited July 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[Little Gifts]

I have been in EXACTLY the same situation. Older desexed staffy female and young undesexed staffy female coming into sexual maturity. Our problem was exacerbated by a third dog (husky cross undesexed female of an in between age). The two staffy's kept going each other over empty bowls and a couple of other resources. The old girl wouldn't give in and relinquish her spot in the pack so the fights were to the death! The young girl was desexed (had been planned anyway) but it made no difference to the fights. We had to get a behaviouralist in to help us manage and things changed immediately. We have probably only had one fight that got out of hand in the 2 years since the behaviouralist helped us and it was our fault. As has been said before it is all about how we manage the dogs behaviours and environments.

The person we used is based on southside of Brisbane and her price was very reasonable (cheaper than all the vet fees!) and I'm happy to pm you her details if you want to look into it further. It was the best thing we have ever done for us and our dogs.

[mita]

Sounds like there's some predictability in the outbreaks of aggression. Like when sparked by food resources. You said they were standing over the food bowl (even tho' empty) at the time. Dogs are dogs & there'll be a possibility of aggression breaking out over food or possessions (beds & toys). Which means you can shape the environment, to some extent, to help prevent.

We had 2 shelties for nearly 15 yrs (one a gentle male & the other a pushy female). In all that time, the gentle male twice lost it when the pushy female muscled in on his food dish while he was eating. There followed an almighty dog fight, but no harm done. My fault for 'exposing' Danny to pushy Shelley while he was eating.

Our tib girl named Angel lit into the pushy female sheltie, the first day the tib arrived....because I foolishly gave her a treat, in the group of 3 & Shelley swooped on it. Angel flew at Shelley like an angry dragon & an almighty dog fight started. No harm fortunately as I pulled the smaller dog out of the middle.

Never, ever another incident between them.....as I learned again how food can trigger aggression. And that I had control over that.

Some interesting research, that still gets cited as a useful resource by the UC Davis Vet School, about household dog fighting (& good to read that owners found improvement after treatment of household fighting in nearly 60% of cases.):

Sherman CK, Reisner IR, et al. 1996. Characteristics, treatment, and outcome of 99 cases of aggression between dogs. Applied Animal Behaviour Science. 47(1-2):91-108.

Abstract:

99 cases of aggression between dogs treated at the Animal Behaviour Clinic at Cornell University between 1983 and 1993 were analysed. In 73 cases the aggression was a conflict between dogs in the same household, whereas in 26 cases the aggression was directed at non-household dogs... .

Overall, more females initiated household aggression, whereas more males attacked non-household dogs. For household aggression, same-sex pairs, especially females, were far more numerous than opposite-sex pairs. Of dogs that started household fights, 58% were younger and 59% arrived in the home more recently than the target dog. Household fights were more serious than fights with outsiders; fights between female house-mates tended to be more severe than other gender combinations. Excitement was the most frequent trigger of household fighting.

Treatments recommended for household aggression were desensitization with counter-conditioning and obedience training.

Neutering and a head halter were most often suggested for non-household aggression. In the owners' opinion, treatment improved 59% of household cases and 52% of non-household cases. After treatment, 56% of dogs exhibiting household aggression could be together when supervised, whereas 76% of those exhibiting non-household aggression could be around outsiders under leash control.

Cases of household aggression in which the attacking dog was younger than its target, a person had been bitten, or the owner could not predict aggressive episodes were less likely to be improved than cases in which these situations did not occur.

Edited July 15, 2010 by mita

[Aidan]

If you don't think there's any real damage then you really don't know bull breeds that well.

"the Bulldog came out worse for wear but not seriously injured just scratched up here and there" was the report. I won't make assumptions based on breed, that's a job for the media and our elected representatives.

[Aidan]

The bulldog obviously wont get over the incident and keeps trying to have a go so a lot more dominace is being used on our part - i feel a lot more confident after all your comments with being able to keep them both - by keeping them seperated and applying a hell of a lot more dominance on my part.

It's hard to tell what people mean when they say "dominance", and a lot of what some people have traditionally regarded as "being dominant" is likely to lead to further problems in the long run. See your behaviourist for an informed opinion based on sound research and evidence.

[PeiPei]

^^ and also pick up the bowls when they are finished. I'd also remove any toys.

This works really well for any dogs that show food aggression. Unfortunately the bowl still symbolizes food.

Separate them when feeding, I always put my more dominate bitches food down first.

Also be careful to separate them when feeding bones or tasty longer lasting treats.

Seek professional help asap - the cost of a professional behaviorist could end up being a lot less than the expensive on-going vet bills.

I would de-sex your other bitch - Why leave her entire?

[Aidan]

I would de-sex your other bitch - Why leave her entire?

Some evidence suggests that speying a bitch with a history of aggression can lead to further aggression. There are theories about why this might be the case, although causality has not been proven.

[JADED81]

I have been in EXACTLY the same situation. Older desexed staffy female and young undesexed staffy female coming into sexual maturity. Our problem was exacerbated by a third dog (husky cross undesexed female of an in between age). The two staffy's kept going each other over empty bowls and a couple of other resources. The old girl wouldn't give in and relinquish her spot in the pack so the fights were to the death! The young girl was desexed (had been planned anyway) but it made no difference to the fights. We had to get a behaviouralist in to help us manage and things changed immediately. We have probably only had one fight that got out of hand in the 2 years since the behaviouralist helped us and it was our fault. As has been said before it is all about how we manage the dogs behaviours and environments.

The person we used is based on southside of Brisbane and her price was very reasonable (cheaper than all the vet fees!) and I'm happy to pm you her details if you want to look into it further. It was the best thing we have ever done for us and our dogs.

Thanks so much we do have the SAME story ! Im actually in Perth but have found a fantastic behaviourist no one ha actually said they have used one but you and if you can say it worked then ill give it a go ! Thanks again :-)

[JADED81]

Sounds like there's some predictability in the outbreaks of aggression. Like when sparked by food resources. You said they were standing over the food bowl (even tho' empty) at the time. Dogs are dogs & there'll be a possibility of aggression breaking out over food or possessions (beds & toys). Which means you can shape the environment, to some extent, to help prevent.

We had 2 shelties for nearly 15 yrs (one a gentle male & the other a pushy female). In all that time, the gentle male twice lost it when the pushy female muscled in on his food dish while he was eating. There followed an almighty dog fight, but no harm done. My fault for 'exposing' Danny to pushy Shelley while he was eating.

Our tib girl named Angel lit into the pushy female sheltie, the first day the tib arrived....because I foolishly gave her a treat, in the group of 3 & Shelley swooped on it. Angel flew at Shelley like an angry dragon & an almighty dog fight started. No harm fortunately as I pulled the smaller dog out of the middle.

Never, ever another incident between them.....as I learned again how food can trigger aggression. And that I had control over that.

Some interesting research, that still gets cited as a useful resource by the UC Davis Vet School, about household dog fighting (& good to read that owners found improvement after treatment of household fighting in nearly 60% of cases.):

Sherman CK, Reisner IR, et al. 1996. Characteristics, treatment, and outcome of 99 cases of aggression between dogs. Applied Animal Behaviour Science. 47(1-2):91-108.

Abstract:

99 cases of aggression between dogs treated at the Animal Behaviour Clinic at Cornell University between 1983 and 1993 were analysed. In 73 cases the aggression was a conflict between dogs in the same household, whereas in 26 cases the aggression was directed at non-household dogs... .

Overall, more females initiated household aggression, whereas more males attacked non-household dogs. For household aggression, same-sex pairs, especially females, were far more numerous than opposite-sex pairs. Of dogs that started household fights, 58% were younger and 59% arrived in the home more recently than the target dog. Household fights were more serious than fights with outsiders; fights between female house-mates tended to be more severe than other gender combinations. Excitement was the most frequent trigger of household fighting.

Treatments recommended for household aggression were desensitization with counter-conditioning and obedience training.

Neutering and a head halter were most often suggested for non-household aggression. In the owners' opinion, treatment improved 59% of household cases and 52% of non-household cases. After treatment, 56% of dogs exhibiting household aggression could be together when supervised, whereas 76% of those exhibiting non-household aggression could be around outsiders under leash control.

Cases of household aggression in which the attacking dog was younger than its target, a person had been bitten, or the owner could not predict aggressive episodes were less likely to be improved than cases in which these situations did not occur.

Thanks for that ! Very interesting ifnormation indeed makes you think !

[Little Gifts]

The best thing about the behaviourist was that the changes were simple to make and keep up with. It all just clicked into place for us and things worked immediately, ie same day our attitude changed so did the dogs behaviours. Specific techniques can also be reintroduced at any time if you find things slipping backwards. Our behaviouralist did the amichien bonding thing with us and some others on DOL have pooh-pooh'd it but it was perfect for us and our dogs, particularly the gesture eating and giving each dog a clear role in the pack and encouraging this role over others. These 2 things alone changed the dynamics.

[Nekhbet]

If this continues, I think rehoming one dog would be in both their best interests. Imagine the stress of being at risk of attack (or wanting to) 24/7. No fun for either dog and certainly no fun for you when a carelessly left open door can create a blood bath.

I have two dogs that dont get along, put them in together and they would guarenteed attack each other. Its happy family here, they're separated and now they have their own corners of the world they are stress free. If they are inside at the same time I either put up a barrier, shut a door or at least one is in a metal crate. I dont see why a dog has to be rehomed and I would never advocate doing it with a dog that has shown dog to dog aggression. It may not just be the other bitch that is the target.

[tdierikx]

I agree with Nekhbet...

I dont see why a dog has to be rehomed and I would never advocate doing it with a dog that has shown dog to dog aggression.

My 2 girls get along fine together normally, but we have had 4 very serious fights in 3 years. Enough is enough, and they are now no longer ever free together. Both get one-on-one time with me in equal numbers of hours per day - we have a new routine, and they are coping with that just fine... I would even say they are actually more happy about the new arrangements than the old ones - with the added bonus that they can never hurt each other again.

My girls are my responsibility - and I don't think it would be fair to rehome one or both after seeing what they can do to another dog if the wrong trigger was set. I raised them from puppies, and they are both lovely well adjusted souls in public - but they just have a thing for each other sometimes... grr!

T.

[percyk]

you poor thing

it is scary

we have multiples here and theres never been blood drawn but the pinning down and airbiting is scary enough

this happened with an older bitch and a younger male and the younger bitch would throw in her cheap shots too

now we have boys ...and the younger bitch has turned ten ...she sticks to herself mostly

and the boys have their heirarchy worked out with a very definite alpha male...who is the youngest by the way

if blood has been drawn and it was pretty intentional then you really do have to watch them...forever

these spates can reoccur over the silliest things...an empty bowl is one of them but it could be even if theres a hidden treasure like a bone or toy that someone covets

i dont give big bones ever...the old bitch used to bury them and shed growl as the others walked by these minefields

ring a few behaviourists and get a feel for one..dont engage the first one you ring...some are better than others ...and youll get a feel for their attitude ad expertise during that call

[Jibba]

If this continues, I think rehoming one dog would be in both their best interests. Imagine the stress of being at risk of attack (or wanting to) 24/7. No fun for either dog and certainly no fun for you when a carelessly left open door can create a blood bath.

I have two dogs that dont get along, put them in together and they would guarenteed attack each other. Its happy family here, they're separated and now they have their own corners of the world they are stress free. If they are inside at the same time I either put up a barrier, shut a door or at least one is in a metal crate. I dont see why a dog has to be rehomed and I would never advocate doing it with a dog that has shown dog to dog aggression. It may not just be the other bitch that is the target.

Have to agree here, i have an amstaff who decided last week was a good time to kill one of our cats she was bought up with the cats but prey drive kicked in and she killed it, then a few days ago she and a fox terrier who is staying with us got into a huge fight and the foxy ended up worse for wear of course. Everyone says put amstaff to sleep, but why it isnt her fault, she doesnt understand fox terrier, and she is an amstaff, we just manage the two of them the same as nekhbet says, one is always in the crate if they are both inside. These two dogs will try and kill each other everytime they see each other now, and the poor foxy isnt even mine and she had a new home to got but the new owner wont take her now because of the fight, dont think he understands every foxy has this in them.

The amstaff now has to be penned or wear a basket muzzle when she isnt supervised, she is fully trained to CCD standard and will accept dogs on the lead, but as the vet says she is trained to accept on the lead its when seh is off the lead things change, she hasnt been trained to accept dogs then.

[Nekhbet]

you can do some work ... my rottie walked out the back door just before straight past the dogue who didnt even bother sniffing him or following him out. They have been taught to ignore each other. I think when relationships are really strained separation actually increases comfort - the dog knows it doesnt have to deal with their competitor ever again for bed, food, toy, space etc ... I mean how great is that to the dog brain! Just treat them equally, dont give a centimeter when it comes to their behaviour and things will be fine.

If you want to be able to walk them together or if they start fence fighting/eyeballing each other even when separated call a professional, then you really have problems in your pack and the dogs are showing you really have little importance to them when it comes to swaying their behaviour.