Aggressive Behaviour Between My 2 Females Dogs

[JADED81]

I have been madly trying to seek advise on the below incident that happened last night between my two very much loved dogs.

I have 2 dogs one is a StaffyxRotty 18 months Spayed Female and the other is an American Bulldog 8 months Not Spayed Female.

They have grown up together - yet last night they had an extremely VISCIOUS FIGHT it was devastating and I could not get them of each other. Eventually I did with cold water and the Bulldog came out worse for wear but not seriously injured just scratched up here and there. They have had a little tiff here and there but last night it was like watching 2 stray dogs fight I could not believe it. They were standing by there food bowls at the time of incident but there was nothing in the bowls.

I have the bulldog booked in to get Spayed on Friday and am keeping the dogs separated until she has had and recovered from the procedure.

But will getting the bulldog Spayed really help the situation? I can see that the bulldog is trying to be the alpha dog of the house she pees in her bed and she constantly “annoys” the older dog and can sometimes get jealous but she is a fantastic dog aside from that. She will keep on hounding the staffy x but nothing has ever happened like it did last night.

People all have a different opinion and the vet said that having her Spayed may get rid of the aggressive hormones especially considering she has not yet been on heat. But i'm petrified that I get her Spayed then leave them alone and come home to find the Bulldog ripped to shreds.

Neither of them have ever been aggressive like this towards each other aside form the occasional push & shove. They are both loving family dogs – yet the bulldog over the last 2 weeks has been pushing the Dominance boundary.

I don’t want to give either one up and am desperate for advise or help on what I should do if ultimately I have to part with one to save one then I will have to but i’m willing to try anything !

[Sandra777]

I would put no faith in spaying solving the problem.

Keep them separated AT ALL TIMES until you get some training advice, but even then I would be reluctant to leave them alone unsupervised EVER.

It is likely a dominance issue however because they are so close together in age and are both of breeds/crosses that are pretty dominant by nature I would not have any expectations that you will EVER be able to leave them alone all day while you're at work. If you are prepared to do some hard yards you may well be able to have them together while you are supervising, but IMO you need a professional behaviourist to assess the situation and give you guidance.

This is why I will never sell a puppy to someone who already has a dog of the same sex unless the resident dog is 8 or 9 years old or more.

[indigirl]

My guess is that the fight occured becuase your bulldog is maturing, bitch fights are the worst. They can and will maim/kill each other at times.

Im guessing your staffyx viewed the bulldog as a threat to her alpha bitch status? Hopefully someone with experience in living in multibitch households of bull breeds can advise you on how to reduce the liklihood of aggression between your dogs.

Good luck with it, I know first hand how devastating it can be watching two dogs you love fight.

ETA an enclosure may be the answer that will givbe you peace of mind, you could alternate which dog is in the enclosure every day so you dont feel that one dog is being 'punished'

Edited July 14, 2010 by indigirl

[megan_]

My (desexed) male and female had their first fight on Sunday - it was terrifying. Fortunately, they're mini schnauzers and didn't do any damage (other than elevate my blood pressure!).

I suggest doing what I did and seek professional help. There is nothing like getting pro in to assess both them and you. Desexing may help but it isn't going to resolve leadership issues and tussles.

In the interim, you need to hae a serious look at your leadership. After all, it is your house and they need to know that this kind of thing isn't acceptable. What rules do you have in the house? Do the dogs know about these rules?

My dogs are really good and not destructive and I have let them get out the couch and sleep on the bed. As a very wise women pointed out to me, from their perspective there are most probably no rules (because they simply don't break any of my rules - don't destroy my house - and they are allowed a lot of freedom). I have since revoked couch and bed priveleges and they seem to be a lot calmer. When we have a training session they respond a lot more quickly, so I think the "I am the boss lady" message must be sinking in.

If you let us know your whereabouts I'm sure someone can suggest a good behaviourist who can help you work through these issues.

ETA: I also do "Nothing in Life is Free" (NILIF) and Triangle of Temptation (ToT) - they're explained in the training forum. NILIF is really important - the dogs get nothing - not even a pat - without earning it first.

Edited July 14, 2010 by megan_

[persephone]

Welcome.

Unfortunately, speying your bulldog bitch may not help much, now . I agree that the fight is possibly due to the fact that there are two bitches just reaching maturity.....

I have no experience in bull breeds - but would strongly suggest the following-

You do need to seek a GOOD professional to visit your home and assess the situation with regards to management now...ask on here for recommendations ...

[Kirislin]

You have my sympathy, I've fairly recently had my two old whippet girls fight. It's only happened twice in their lives but the warning signs were there before, I just didn't really notice them. I have Penny who considers herself the alpha and smaller younger Kibah who has designs on the top job. I have to watch them carefully and not let them get into a situation where one feels it can or needs to challenge the other.

After the first fight I started back to basics, training them to sit, and wait for their dinner. If one has something I wont let the other steal it (if I can help it, that's how the last fight started, just a lapse in concertration from me.) I really re inforced their recall and for a while crated them at night, although I've since relaxed that and they're both sleeping in my bed again.

Even that, though I have to be careful with. If Penny is already in bed and Kibah jumps up, she has to be careful that she doesn't go near Penny or Pen will glare at her. I always tell Penny to stop that behaviour but I also try to avoid it happening in the first place.

You have to re assert your position, so that what you say goes. I am not expert, I am sure others with more experience will give you advice. Good luck with it. I know how shocked, devastated and worried it makes you feel.

[Nekhbet]

two bull breeds close together in age. I would be tempted to leave the bulldog entire so they are unevenly matched.

You need professional help and separation. The Ambull is coming of age but the staffy x is not wanting to release her position as top dog despite being desexed, she is coming into her prime and there will be more fights to come unless you start ruling the both of them.

Speying does not get rid of aggressive hormones at all. That is a myth completely. You have two breeds born to be stubborn, dominant, and have less hesitation in having a fight with another dog when they're pushed.

I agree totally with what Sandra has written. No matter how wel they start getting along NEVER leave them within reach of each other when you are not around.

[W Sibs]

Welcome.

Unfortunately, speying your bulldog bitch may not help much, now . I agree that the fight is possibly due to the fact that there are two bitches just reaching maturity.....

I have no experience in bull breeds - but would strongly suggest the following-

You do need to seek a GOOD professional to visit your home and assess the situation with regards to management now...ask on here for recommendations ...

+1

[poodlefan]

They have grown up together - yet last night they had an extremely VISCIOUS FIGHT it was devastating and I could not get them of each other. Eventually I did with cold water and the Bulldog came out worse for wear but not seriously injured just scratched up here and there. They have had a little tiff here and there but last night it was like watching 2 stray dogs fight I could not believe it. They were standing by there food bowls at the time of incident but there was nothing in the bowls.

Start feeding them in separate rooms or crated immediately.

Summon professional, experienced help ASAP. In addition to the damage these two could cause to one another, don't under estimate the damage they may cause to you if you get yourself between them and they are fighting.

I can't see speying really helping this situation but why wouldn't you want to spey the bitch anyway??

[megan_]

^^ and also pick up the bowls when they are finished. I'd also remove any toys.

[Miranda]

Always feed them separately, remove the bowls as soon as they're finished, don't leave high value toys lying around, separate them when you're not there and supervise them carefully when you are.

Bitch fights can be extremely serious and the potential for injury, both to the dogs and to yourself if you attempt to break it up, is great. I would never recommend that anyone keep two bitches of this breeding together, especially when they're so close in age, it may even come to a point where you have to separate them permanently or even rehome one of them. I don't think you'll find that desexing the younger bitch will make a great deal of difference.

Having experienced a few fights involving bitches I feel for you

[persephone]

I would also suggest ( because we have 2 bitches here who don't need much to trigger a fight) do NOT have the dog/s anywhere near where you are preparing food - dogs or human .

Luckily our 2 are oldish and have blunt teeth- but it is still distressing and needs careful management on our part

[JADED81]

WOW GUYS ! Thanks so much for all of your inputs and they are all so similiar who knew that having these two breeds would result in this stress and sadness.

I guess getting her spayed is the first step in getting the aggression out of her - and as a lot of you have suggested keeping them seperate which i hate to do in case one thinks im favouring the other and then they fight again!

I have looked into Doggy Boot Camp and a behaviouralist to try to get the aggression out of the bulldog her name is Kathy Kopellis McLeod. But i guess in the interim it's a matter of not letting them near eachother which is going to be hard to do!

I am sad to think that i just wont be able to get the aggression out of the Bulldog...huuufff :-(

[sas]

WOW GUYS ! Thanks so much for all of your inputs and they are all so similiar who knew that having these two breeds would result in this stress and sadness.

I guess getting her spayed is the first step in getting the aggression out of her - and as a lot of you have suggested keeping them seperate which i hate to do in case one thinks im favouring the other and then they fight again!

I have looked into Doggy Boot Camp and a behaviouralist to try to get the aggression out of the bulldog her name is Kathy Kopellis McLeod. But i guess in the interim it's a matter of not letting them near eachother which is going to be hard to do!

I am sad to think that i just wont be able to get the aggression out of the Bulldog...huuufff :-(

Boot camp for the dogs can be a good foot up, however everything will return to how it was if you don't also aquire the knowledge you need to manage your pack, your Behaviourist will need to work with you through this.

I always feed seperate anyway regardless of dogs temperaments because I personaly believe it's important to allow a dog to eat in peace and not rush their food because competition is standing next to them.

Keep the dogs seperate for now until you can get the knowledge you need to go forward.

[poodlefan]

WOW GUYS ! Thanks so much for all of your inputs and they are all so similiar who knew that having these two breeds would result in this stress and sadness.

I guess getting her spayed is the first step in getting the aggression out of her - and as a lot of you have suggested keeping them seperate which i hate to do in case one thinks im favouring the other and then they fight again!

I have looked into Doggy Boot Camp and a behaviouralist to try to get the aggression out of the bulldog her name is Kathy Kopellis McLeod. But i guess in the interim it's a matter of not letting them near eachother which is going to be hard to do!

I am sad to think that i just wont be able to get the aggression out of the Bulldog...huuufff :-(

Seems to me two dogs fought, not one. All dogs are potentially aggressive - its the relationship between these dogs that's the issue. Don't look to only one dog as the problem.

You can probably have the two dogs together under supervision if you are aware of what you are doing - that's where professional help comes in.

The rule of thumb to minimise the risk of this kind of behaviour is not to have two dogs that are the same gender and close together in age and size. You've got just that.

Edited July 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[JADED81]

I would put no faith in spaying solving the problem.

Keep them separated AT ALL TIMES until you get some training advice, but even then I would be reluctant to leave them alone unsupervised EVER.

It is likely a dominance issue however because they are so close together in age and are both of breeds/crosses that are pretty dominant by nature I would not have any expectations that you will EVER be able to leave them alone all day while you're at work. If you are prepared to do some hard yards you may well be able to have them together while you are supervising, but IMO you need a professional behaviourist to assess the situation and give you guidance.

This is why I will never sell a puppy to someone who already has a dog of the same sex unless the resident dog is 8 or 9 years old or more.

Thanks so much for your direct approach and thanks for taking the time to answer. The fight was last night and i have kept them seperated since then so would you suggest that i do not "introduce" them back to eachother tonight on leads of course?

[Jacquiboss&scoop]

Hi Jaded

dont feel bad , but you NEED to separate these 2 , you are not punishing either one of them it would be much worse for them both if they have another scrap, I have 2 fairly strong minded bitches and find that prevention beats cure everytime , feed them in separate rooms , pick up the dishes as soon as meal is finished , I would not let them interact alone at all at this point and would be very wary of allowing it even if I was present It only takes a second of inattention to miss the signals and with some dogs there is very little warning at all can be just a look that sets off the next fight , desexing will be unlikely to change anything at all, dont count on it for cure all as it is not one ( it will stop unwanted puppies for sure this is the reason we do it ) .

Book a specialist to come and see you and your dogs keep them isolated until then , it is far better to have their noses a little out of joint than have them both at the vet for surgery bitch fights are NASTY in any breed they are quite happy to maim or kill each other when they get going is better not to allow the chance to happen . I feel for you as it is hard to have dogs that must be kept apart but it can be done

Good luck with it and hoping for a working answer for you all

[tdierikx]

My girls recently had their fourth fight in about 3 years - each of those 4 fights resulted in at least one dog at the vet for expensive cleaning up and suturing of wounds sustained. The latest fight had both dogs nastily injured and both were at the vet for 2 days. That was nearly a month ago now...

I have decided that I'm not going to let my girls run together any more. It's fiddly and a real pain in the derriere, but having them try to kill each other over some stupid little thing is an even bigger pain.

T.

[ChristineX]

Umm, Kathy Kopellis Mcleod is really really good, (she sees Duke on a regular basis), but she is based in WA. Your info says you are in Queensland? Just checking - because I think a behaviourist in your area is always a good idea.

I do second what everyone else has said - and by the way, I don't think bootcamp will 'take the aggression' out of either of your dogs. This seems to be more about having two strong female dogs who are probably not going to back down if there is a dispute over anything.

It is almost certainly going to come down to management of your dogs to minimise the opportunities for differences of opinions.

ChristineX

[Aidan3]

Just for a bit of added perspective, it doesn't sound like there was any real damage. With some good help right now (early), a lot of consistency, careful management and time, your odds of having them co-exist are actually not too bad. Just don't become complacent down the track.