Alpha Dog

[poodlefan]

Dogs don't have power vacuums. Who steps up when you aren't there?

Life isn't necessarily a constant parade of competetive situations. Social dominance exists as a means to avoid fights, which occur when individuals are in competition over something. What happens if you have two dogs that rarely compete? My boys are very different and have very different priorities, so they rarely come into conflict with one another and therefore there is no NEED for one to be dominant over the other. What happens is one always backs off. Who it is depends on who wants it more. Erik is pushier, bolder, and more likely to think he can get something he wants off Kivi, but if Kivi doesn't want to give it up Erik doesn't pick a fight with him. Erik will try to encourage Kivi to give it up and if Kivi doesn't care that much about it he will, but Erik is a lot smaller than him and can't make him do anything he doesn't want to do. Kivi is highly motivated to avoid conflicts. That's just who he is. So he doesn't want to compete with Erik. And he doesn't. End of story. No vacuum to fill. They make decisions based on what they personally want. Whether the other dog goes along with it or not is neither here nor there.

Who said leadership was only about competition or power? The reason pack hierarchies exist, is it not, is to minimise competition and maximise cooperation within a social group?

Unless you leave dogs in a sterile environment, there's competition anyway.. even where they rest may result in a competition over resources.

An absence of competiton points to the existence of a stable pack hiearchy anyway.

My mother has a dog that defends his right to get whatever he wants whenever he wants. There are three dogs in that house and he is the only one that plays this game. In fact, he's the only dog I've ever met that plays that game. The girls just avoid him. He will pick a fight over something he doesn't really want that much just to make a point, and he'll pick that fight strategically and not just with any dog. He doesn't care for who makes what decisions. No one can make him do anything, and the only thing he's interested in making anyone else do is give way to him when he says the word.

I believe the scientific term for a dog like this is "little shit". That dog's behaviour would not be tolerated in my home. Sounds like the boundaries need to be reinforced with him.

Edited July 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[W Sibs]

I really like Patricia McConnell's writing on dominance and pack heirarchy...

http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/the-d...onships-in-dogs for example.

Dominance can really vary based on what's at stake, and it's often misleading to think of it in terms of alpha, beta etc. Even in wolves, it's much more complicated than that.

That's an interesting read!!!

Got me thinking more and wanting to go home and observe my 2 more closely...

[corvus]

Who said leadership was only about competition or power?

I was responding to your "power vacuum" comment. I think it's misleading.

The reason pack hierarchies exist, is it not, is to minimise competition and maximise cooperation within a social group?

That is the reason, but whether that applies to dogs or not is highly debatable, as I'm sure you know.

Unless you leave dogs in a sterile environment, there's competition anyway.. even where they rest may result in a competition over resources.

But competition over resources doesn't necessarily translate to one animal being dominant over another in all situations. Animals are always trying to get their way even if being suppressed by a more dominant animal. They just find sneaky ways of doing it. Trish McConnell has used the example of one of her previous BCs, Pip, and Tulip the Pyr. If Pip wanted something Tulip had, she would squirm up to her and thump her tail on the ground and act like a submissive fool until Tulip gave up and left her to it just to get away from the foolish tail thumping and so forth. Pip got what she wanted through submissive behaviour. Does that make her dominant, or submissive?

My point about there being no competition between my dogs was one of different priorities eliminating competition. Kivi would certainly like to keep his Kongs and if given the opportunity to work on them away from Erik he will, but if Erik turns up he won't even try to keep his Kong safe. He just lets Erik take it. If it were a bone, Erik wouldn't try to take it because he knows what a Kivi who isn't going to give him the bone looks like. If I had two like Erik, I'd see competition over Kongs.

I think leadership in dogs is bollocks. What do they care if someone is following them or they are following someone else? A leader is only a leader if somone follows them, but does that mean a dog that goes off to do something he enjoys on his own is a leader if another dog happens to follow him to see what he's up to? Some dogs can't bear to let someone go off to do something alone because they have such a strong sense of social cohesion, but others are far more independent and couldn't care less what anyone else is doing. Does that make them a leader? Just because they care more about finding something fun to do than hanging out with another dog? To me, dominance is about competition and resource-holding potential. It's about who wants what and how motivated they are to keep it. It's about judging how motivated a dog is to keep what they have before deciding how to behave towards them.

I very much enjoyed McConnell's comments on dominance, and the comments on those blog posts represent some the most sensible discussion on dominance in dogs I've ever seen.

[poodlefan]

I was responding to your "power vacuum" comment. I think it's misleading.

I used the term to illustrate the fact that for the 8 or more hours a day that many dogs spend without human company, a system of dealing with competition and cooperation is required.

I think leadership in dogs is bollocks. What do they care if someone is following them or they are following someone else? A leader is only a leader if somone follows them, but does that mean a dog that goes off to do something he enjoys on his own is a leader if another dog happens to follow him to see what he's up to? Some dogs can't bear to let someone go off to do something alone because they have such a strong sense of social cohesion, but others are far more independent and couldn't care less what anyone else is doing. Does that make them a leader? Just because they care more about finding something fun to do than hanging out with another dog? To me, dominance is about competition and resource-holding potential. It's about who wants what and how motivated they are to keep it. It's about judging how motivated a dog is to keep what they have before deciding how to behave towards them.

Maybe you need to spend more time with dogs that live in groups of 3 or more. My view is that it is in situations where cooperation is needed or competition is required that you see the hierarchy at its most visible. Place a stable pack in a perceived threat situation and I bet you'll see one dog or more dogs step up to deal with it. I've seen it in my own. I've seen it in others.

I recall a group of 5 dogs (3 mine, two belonging to a housemate).. large strange dog approaching. Two dogs went forward.. would you like to hazard a guess which of mine did?

Leadership only applies to social situations and we have modified some breeds to have a lower pack drive than others.

Edited July 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I used the term to illustrate the fact that for the 8 or more hours a day that many dogs spend without human company, a system of dealing with competition and cooperation is required.

yes thats what i thought you meant and that is what made me stop and think. when i had a multi dog household my dogs behave perfectly when i was around and there was never a fight or a scrap at anytime as far as i was aware

however, PF's comment made me wonder whether it was my boundary setting or leadership that made this happen OR was i kidding myself and it something else given i was at work for 8 hours a day.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Bjelkier]

Alchemy is the boss without question.

She dosn't push the boys around or start fights but when she wants something she just takes it and they let her.