Dogs And Guilt - Your Experiences

[jacqui835]

I know everyone always says that dogs don't know if they've done something wrong or not and they only look guilty/sad etc because the owner reprimands them, but I'm feeling more and more lately that I would have to disagree. Just then for example, just got back from a 2 hour walk and having had a drink, the dog ran upstairs as is usual to curl up in his chair in my room, because I always do my facebooking and what not after our walks, it's a routine. I was held up, talking to my brother about his trip to the aquarium and didn't actually know that the dog was upstairs already. Anyway, coming up the stairs, already thinking about what my next facebook status will be, emails I have to reply to and what to do for dinner, the last thing on my mind was the dog or what he could be up to. But then, I see his head poking around the corner from upstairs, and he is looking guilty as anything. Ears way back, head down, eyes pleading, looking very sad and like he wants to make up for something and regain my approval. Still I have no idea what he could have done, so I'm just confused and say nothing. His behaviour continues, I reach the top of the stairs and notice one of my hair elastics (which he's not meant to touch) on the ground behind him. By this stage, dog is practically lying on the floor and his eyes could inspire poetry. I grab my elastic and am so shocked by the dog's behaviour that I almost forget to tell him off, but then I remember, and quickly turn to say, naughty boy etc as I pick up the elastic. Once I turn away, dog jumps up and all is forgotten and great between us again, so I'm guessing the hair elastic was the problem.

This is the 2nd time I can think of that this has happened.

First time was even possibly more dramatic and perhaps indicative. He had peed in the house right next to the door, because although it was open for him, it was raining outside, and being the wussy 40+kg doberman he is, the rain is just too much for him. Again though, I had no idea this had happened, and having just finished my own dinner, was calling him for his. He didn't come though which I thought was very odd (he is typically a keen eater and also usually very responsive to his name), so I started looking for him, and finally found him crouched practically hiding under the indoor clothes line thing again looking terribly sad and guilty. I was confused but at this point suspicious, and started looking around to see what could have caused it, and then saw the puddle on the floor. Told him he was a very bad boy and he ran outside into the rain without me even telling him to, as that is the usual punishment for peeing inside. Once I finished cleaning it up, I let him back in, and again we were best friends, all forgotten.

It's like he knows he's done something wrong, even if sometimes I think he does it before he can think about it, but after the heat of the moment has passed, he knows it won't make me happy and he can't do anything else until I've found it and told him off for it.

Has anything like this happened to anyone else?

[Jacquiboss&scoop]

HI Jacqui

I always looked at it as a type of expected response for example puppy learns walk means that they will get to go out and get excited , even picking up the lead will get bum wiggles and bounces out of my lot ,

so with this in mind playing with something that they should not be (that they have been in trouble for and shown "guilty " behaviour for ) will tend to get the same reaction even if you have not yet discovered the transgression.

Our dogs do not get told off when house training so if an accident happens they do not expect to get into trouble so no display of apeasment (Sp) , but they do get into trouble for chewing the irrigation system so they display this behaviour when we come home , even though they had not been caught in the act. the act elicts this behaviour in it self as a sort of trained ? conditioned response

[dandybrush]

...my boy is never guilty for his antics, perhaps im not tough enough on him *shrug

[moosmum]

My oldest dobe does.

She has a look we call her crooked smile and she gives herself away every time,tho' its very rare for her to slip in any way.

When she was 1st speyed she was a bit incontenent for a while and the poor girl always looked so "humiliated?"

The other time that sticks in my mind is before she was speyed she would have false pregnancies.

One day I came inside to see her on her bed with this silly "crooked smile". I turned to see the other dogs all giving me their" I wish I had some of that" looks.

I checked to see what she had gotten into but there was nothing I could see untill I looked in her bed.

She had stolen an egg from the goose and had it under her "armpit".

Our younger boy will do the same,but not as obviously.

He only gives himself away when we notice something wrong,but we do give him the benefit of the doubt with other dogs just as able to be the cause.

[jacqui835]

HI Jacqui

Our dogs do not get told off when house training so if an accident happens they do not expect to get into trouble so no display of apeasment (Sp) , but they do get into trouble for chewing the irrigation system so they display this behaviour when we come home , even though they had not been caught in the act. the act elicts this behaviour in it self as a sort of trained ? conditioned response

When we were toilet training him, I started with that approach - ie not telling him off for mistakes, but it was like he then decided that yeah, if we were watching, he would be praised for going outside so it was worth it, but if we weren't, well, he might as well just go in the house so I had to make him realise that going outside wasn't preferable, it was essential.

I think I see what you're saying. There is a difference between knowing you have done something that will get you into trouble vs feeling bad about having done something? I'd say that's true. My dog knows he has done something that will upset me and I don't believe he wants to upset me, but I doubt he actually feels bad about having played with my hair elastic.

It's interesting though, because whilst I would agree 100% that you can not punish a dog after the event has happened when he's young or in training, I think perhaps punishment once they know something is likely to upset you is potentially effective to some degree at least. I know my dog likes to test me every now and then, so perhaps this is his way of checking to see if something is still unacceptable as far as I'm concerned. He definitely understood that I was annoyed about him having played with my elastic, even though by the time I got there, the elastic was on the floor behind him.

[Jacquiboss&scoop]

As long as he makes the clear connection still to the act I suppose so , he also might need you to do the forgive stage of the process so that he moves on ?

I guess we have been lucky in that from very young our dogs prefer to eliminate outside unless they are very sick , messing inside in our oldies is when we start thinking if the rainbow bridge is near as they hate to do it , might be cause they see our house as their kennel LOL , can understand that it would be frustrating to find a mess from an adult dog and a bit of a growl would be normal to prevent the squat becoming a puddle on the carpet

[redangel]

If I get home and my dog is in the " lying on the back, eyes rolled four legs in air frozen position" I know somethings up...

Edited July 13, 2010 by redangel

[Staranais]

I think I see what you're saying. There is a difference between knowing you have done something that will get you into trouble vs feeling bad about having done something? I'd say that's true. My dog knows he has done something that will upset me and I don't believe he wants to upset me, but I doubt he actually feels bad about having played with my hair elastic.

Yes, that is it, I think. The dog might suspect he is going to be in trouble, and is possibly feeling upset or apprehensive about that, so he looks "guilty" to you. But that's different to feeling true guilt.

Guilt is a pretty complex emotion, to feel guilt you need to understand that you have done wrong, which requires an understanding of morals, and I really doubt dogs are capable of comprehending that type of thing.

[Rappie]

We associate their body language with guilt, but the emotion of guilt is complex and not likely to be what dogs are thinking.

They will demonstrate anything and everything in their repertoire of submissive behaviours in order to appease you.

It's not so much a case of "OMG I'm sooooooooooo sorry", as them knowing that the situation you have found them in will not get positive reactions out of you.

If dogs get scolded after the fact, for weeing inside, then they learn that their presence in the same room as a urine puddle will mean you are unhappy. They don't associate it with the fact that THEY made the urine puddle or did something bad, but A + B + C = unhappy owner. They pick up on negative cues from you and will do whatever they can to reduce the impact on them.

[corvus]

To me with my dogs it's more about social cohesion than guilt, per se. Example, I one day looked up to find Erik chewing on my $900 pair of binoculars. Okay, my fault for leaving them in his reach, but I was so very upset that he may have seriously damaged them. I went "Nonononononono". Didn't say his name, didn't look at him, didn't shout or put him out or interact with him at all, but he knew something was wrong and he had an inkling it was something relating to him. The ears went down and he gave me a "Did I do good?" look. It was a good ten minutes after I had ascertained that no serious damage had been done before I could finally bring myself to look at him again. In that time he had repeatedly approached me with ears and tail down and licking his lips, averting his gaze and so on. But he had not tried any of his usual demanding tactics. He had some sense that things weren't right between us and a need to smooth things over. When I finally looked at him again I invited him up for a cuddle and the relief from him was palpable. Loads of yawns and lip licking and all this tension just melted off him. We cuddled for about ten minutes and as far as he was concerned everything was right in his world again.

To me, this is about what is important to him. He is a socially sensitive dog. He has a strong sense of pack and he NEEDS things to be cool between him and other family members. He was not guilty that he had been caught chewing on a forbidden item. He sensed that I was upset with him and that caused him to feel unsettled and he sought to mend whatever had gone wrong between us to make himself feel less unsettled.

In your example I agree with Schmoo's boss. They don't necessarily know why cranky humans go hand in hand with some of the things they do, but that doesn't mean they can't react to it if they expect it's coming. All that appeasement might look like the dog is unhappy, but it's not necessarily so. I've seen my dogs pouring out appeasement signals purely to convince another dog to play with them. If the need to pump out appeasement signals was aversive, then they wouldn't approach the dogs at all. They do it to avoid getting beaten up, and to encourage social harmony. It's entirely reasonable in my mind to assume that for many dogs appeasement is the default because it does no harm and may well do a lot of good. It probably makes them feel in control as well. Imagine, "here comes the human, they are going to shout at me, but as long as I suck up shouting is as bad as it will be". They have no reason to believe that the appeasement in the past didn't avert disaster for them.

[wagsalot]

Riley used to make me laugh when he was younger.

If I came home from work and he was sat on the deck chair - facing backwards! - I knew he'd dug a big hole.

Edited July 13, 2010 by wagsalot

[Staranais]

Riley used to make me laugh when he was younger.

If I came home from work and he was sat on the deck chair - facing backwards! - I knew he'd dug a big hole.

Haha, that is funny.

My old dog used to greet me at the door and carefully not look me in the eyes at all when he'd done something naughty in my absence (like dig a hole, disassemble my fire wood, or on one memorable occasion, eat my sofa). Whereas my new girl tends to meet me at the door then proudly lead me round and show me the exciting improvements she's made to the garden in my absence. :D

I think I must have become a less cranky dog owner over time, since my new girl is clearly much less worried about owner wrath than my old boy was.

[Rappie]

In your example I agree with Schmoo's boss. They don't necessarily know why cranky humans go hand in hand with some of the things they do, but that doesn't mean they can't react to it if they expect it's coming. All that appeasement might look like the dog is unhappy, but it's not necessarily so. I've seen my dogs pouring out appeasement signals purely to convince another dog to play with them. If the need to pump out appeasement signals was aversive, then they wouldn't approach the dogs at all. They do it to avoid getting beaten up, and to encourage social harmony. It's entirely reasonable in my mind to assume that for many dogs appeasement is the default because it does no harm and may well do a lot of good. It probably makes them feel in control as well. Imagine, "here comes the human, they are going to shout at me, but as long as I suck up shouting is as bad as it will be". They have no reason to believe that the appeasement in the past didn't avert disaster for them.

What Corvus said much more eloquently than I ^^^^^^^

(I have 'manflu', a serious case of brain fog and difficulty stringing a sentence together.....)

[Tilly]

My boy just looks at me like "it wasn't me" even when he is caught in the act ... and when I do tell him off I get the "but you still love me" look before he does zoomies and cuddles up to me.

If I am really really mad at him I do ignore him ... he he just runs off and finds something else to amuse himself with before coming back for a run-by cuddle.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Tilly

[noisymina]

Ah Jaquie - as soon as you said Dobermann. I knew what you meant!

Nobody could know how sad my girl was when she "killed" her first squeaky toy! She was so distressed I went out specailly to get her a new one. I felt so bad for her!

That second one was about 5 years old! She never "killed" her squeak again! It was dying from old age and I just recently got out the other one I had put away. She is really happy to have a new, revitalised squeak! Yoiu can just tell by the way she plays. :D

She was also very "sorry" the day she came roaring around a corner and knocked me flying. She has not done that again either. She quite clearly learned to look around corners first! So did I actually.

And that wasn't because I go mad at her. Never really have needed to get mad with her. She tries so hard to be good. She's a big wuss and has some "issues" re confidence etc but naughty she is not.

[Cookiez]

If I catch my dog doing something naughty, I will tell him "uh ah" or "no". He will back away and give me the "but I didn't do anything face".

Example below. Lol.

BEFORE

AFTER "I'm sorry! I didn't do it! The chair fell in my mouth!"

Edited July 15, 2010 by Cookiez

[noisymina]

Well he wasn't.

Those were just love bites he was giving that chair!

[Genabee]

If I catch my dog doing something naughty, I will tell him "uh ah" or "no". He will back away and give me the "but I didn't do anything face".

Example below. Lol.

BEFORE

AFTER "I'm sorry! I didn't do it! The chair fell in my mouth!"

Everytime I see pictures of your pooch, I melt... He is just beautiful! He looks like a giant teddy bear!!!!

[lovemesideways]

I know everyone always says that dogs don't know if they've done something wrong or not and they only look guilty/sad etc because the owner reprimands them, but I'm feeling more and more lately that I would have to disagree. Just then for example, just got back from a 2 hour walk and having had a drink, the dog ran upstairs as is usual to curl up in his chair in my room, because I always do my facebooking and what not after our walks, it's a routine. I was held up, talking to my brother about his trip to the aquarium and didn't actually know that the dog was upstairs already. Anyway, coming up the stairs, already thinking about what my next facebook status will be, emails I have to reply to and what to do for dinner, the last thing on my mind was the dog or what he could be up to. But then, I see his head poking around the corner from upstairs, and he is looking guilty as anything. Ears way back, head down, eyes pleading, looking very sad and like he wants to make up for something and regain my approval. Still I have no idea what he could have done, so I'm just confused and say nothing. His behaviour continues, I reach the top of the stairs and notice one of my hair elastics (which he's not meant to touch) on the ground behind him. By this stage, dog is practically lying on the floor and his eyes could inspire poetry. I grab my elastic and am so shocked by the dog's behaviour that I almost forget to tell him off, but then I remember, and quickly turn to say, naughty boy etc as I pick up the elastic. Once I turn away, dog jumps up and all is forgotten and great between us again, so I'm guessing the hair elastic was the problem.

This is the 2nd time I can think of that this has happened.

First time was even possibly more dramatic and perhaps indicative. He had peed in the house right next to the door, because although it was open for him, it was raining outside, and being the wussy 40+kg doberman he is, the rain is just too much for him. Again though, I had no idea this had happened, and having just finished my own dinner, was calling him for his. He didn't come though which I thought was very odd (he is typically a keen eater and also usually very responsive to his name), so I started looking for him, and finally found him crouched practically hiding under the indoor clothes line thing again looking terribly sad and guilty. I was confused but at this point suspicious, and started looking around to see what could have caused it, and then saw the puddle on the floor. Told him he was a very bad boy and he ran outside into the rain without me even telling him to, as that is the usual punishment for peeing inside. Once I finished cleaning it up, I let him back in, and again we were best friends, all forgotten.

It's like he knows he's done something wrong, even if sometimes I think he does it before he can think about it, but after the heat of the moment has passed, he knows it won't make me happy and he can't do anything else until I've found it and told him off for it.

Has anything like this happened to anyone else?

Just curious, Am I wrong in thinking that there is pretty much No way that your dog associated that wee with being told off? Unless you literally caught him in the act of peeing, he wouldn't have associated -peeing inside- with being told No.

[Cookiez]

Well he wasn't.

Those were just love bites he was giving that chair!

:rofl:

Everytime I see pictures of your pooch, I melt... He is just beautiful! He looks like a giant teddy bear!!!!

Aw, thanks! He is like a teddy bear. I love looking at his cute little face. Lol.