Submission Urinating Versus A Garden Variety "happy Wee"

[koalathebear]

Elbie's five and a bit months old and he gets excited when visitors arrive. For a couple of people (my brother and my dad), he'll do a happy wee We assumed it's because he knows from previous visits that they'll play with him and be his buddy. At puppy class and obedience class, they told us it's not uncommon for puppies to do a happy wee when they're excited - there were quite a few happy wees during the beginning of puppy class. The happy wees are largely managed now because if the visitors ignore him and let him settle, he generally will just bounce around and there will be no unwelcome wees.

The thing was yesterday when we had a trainer come to visit, Elbie did what we thought was a happy wee but after a frown and a shake of the head, it was diagnosed as 'submission urinating' that is apparently caused by fear/being overwhelmed/being stressed by a situation.

The thing that puzzled me was that from what I could see, Elbie was not afraid or overwhelmed, he was just really happy to see a visitor. I could tell because when he's really happy, he doesn't just wag his tail - he does this hilarious thing where his entire bum wiggles so much it's like his tail will fall off.

So - how to tell the difference?

Edited July 12, 2010 by koalathebear

[Genabee]

I don't know how to tell the difference, but Little G does the same thing. And when I take her for walks and she sees other dogs she does it. Often she just lies there under them to let them sniff... so I guess that is obviously her surrendering to the older/bigger dog.

It is a bit embarrassing, as I feel like I want to take the shower power everywhere with me.

Did your diagnosis come with a treatment plan?

[koalathebear]

Did your diagnosis come with a treatment plan?

Alas no. Well for the 'happy wee' in our home, it's pretty easily fixed - if visitors don't do the 'wooba wooba wooba cute puppy' thing where they wrestle and rile up the puppy, he'll calm down of his own accord and he won't do a happy wee. We don't really have a solution for the 'I'm in a new and exciting place, I must wee' version although he hasn't wee'd at obedience class despite being quite excited before class.

I'm at a loss about the submission urination thing, though because as far as I could see, Elbie only piddled when he was excited and happy. e.g he never did it when he was being slightly bullied by bigger puppies at puppy class etc.

[wuffles]

Ava does the whole body wag when she is happy, too -- but she also does it when she's unsure and as an appeasement gesture to people and other dogs. When she's been told off by our older dog she wags her bum like crazy (once he pinned her down while growling and her tail was going nuts) but promptly slinks away from the situation when it's over. So wriggles can mean more than just happiness

I'm not an expert by any means but I wouldn't have thought that occasional submissive urination was a huge problem... someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Some dogs like Elbie are just naturally submissive and how they deal with that is pretty individual. Maybe confidence building would help? One of mine is very dominant and the other somewhere in between, so I may be completely off the mark...

[Kavik]

I would do greetings calmly to prevent weeing when greeting you or other people (harder to get other people to be calm about it!). If you are calm about it and don't greet in an overly exciting manner and don't correct him for it (correcting could make it worse) they generally grow out of it themselves. Diesel did this for a little while when he was a puppy and grew out of it on his own.

[Tassie]

Yep - in a way it doesn't really matter - for any involuntary wee like that, you would do what you have been doing - keeping everything calm until pup settles down. (And then clean it unobtrusively with an enzymatic cleaner.)

I guess you might see a slight difference in body posture if it was a truly submissive wee - pup would likely have a lower, less certain body posture. If you didn't see that, then I'm guessing it was just the normal "so happy to see you" that you've been working on phasing out. It's also possible that the pup might have been picking up on a bit of stress from you.

Just my 2c worth - reading your other thread as well, I'd say you've been doing well - and now that you have a more structured plan, that might give even more consistency - and it's consistency, and a great relationship between you and the pup, that is the key to successful dog training, and a great life with your dog. JMHO

[poodlefan]

The fastest cure for submissive wetting I found was to stop people leaning over to greet the dog when they arrived. After a short period of ignoring her, greetings could proceed calmly without wet carpet.

I also kept all greetings outside for a while. Wet grass is easier to deal with than wet carpet.

A happy dog can still be submissive - the two aren't mutually exclusive and submissive and fearful ain't the same.

I'd describe submissive urination as an indication of lack of social confidence.

A combination of maturity and socialisation seems to do the trick for most pups. Bladder control also increases with age.

Being roughly greeted by strangers to the house would definitely trigger an uncertain pup KTB - you're nipping those sorts of greetings in the bud and that's good. What is it with people who thinking roughing a pup up is fun for the pup??

Edited July 13, 2010 by poodlefan

[koalathebear]

Being roughly greeted by strangers to the house would definitely trigger an uncertain pup KTB - you're nipping those sorts of greetings in the bud and that's good. What is it with people who thinking roughing a pup up is fun for the pup??

I actually get a bit annoyed about it. Generally Elbie calms down quite quickly and will sit and drop but will get wound up again by people who will handle him quite vigorously and make their voice kind of crazy Weirdly enough, some of the worst culprits are 'dog people' like the vet's nurses at puppy classes and teachers at dog obedience classes who will do a rough to robust greeting and totally excite the little thing. One of the nurses would go up to Elbie when he was minding his own business and deliberately wind him up even though we were saying: "Errrr - if you make him excited, it's your own fault if he wees on you."

I guess some people think that's how you're supposed to 'play' with a dog? Fortunately most people who visit the house do comply with our request that they ignore first before they greet and that made the weeing frequency drop to almost nothing...

As to wigglebums - I wasn't aware that it was also an appeasement sign but Elbie is definitely VERY happy when he goes into wigglebum mode. He loves my mum and he sniffs her socks with glee and his little bum wiggles around like crazy.

Edited July 13, 2010 by koalathebear

[poodlefan]

KTB:

Weirdly enough, some of the worst culprits are 'dog people' like the vet's nurses at puppy classes and people at dog obedience classes who will do a rough to robust greeting and totally excite the little thing.

One thing you're going to learn in the next little while KTB is that loving dogs and understanding them are not necessarily one and the same thing.

I know very very successful dog sports triallers who IMO know very very little about dog behaviour and aggression . The worst of these are those that have fluked one very very savvy dog and had a lot of success with it (I swear some dogs can obey the judge's cues or count) That's why a lot of folk (including me) differentiate between dog "trainers" and "behaviorists".

Like the "dog person" my friend encountered who informed her that the way to establishing the right relationship with any strange dog was to take it by the collar and fix it with a commanding stare eye to eye.

Or the new convert to Amichien Bonding who informed me that the reason my dogs like to sit on the back of my couch to is show dominance over me. "Even when I'm not home?" I asked sweetly.. the back of the couch is the only they get to see out the front window.

Edited July 13, 2010 by poodlefan

[koalathebear]

Some dogs like Elbie are just naturally submissive and how they deal with that is pretty individual. Maybe confidence building would help? One of mine is very dominant and the other somewhere in between, so I may be completely off the mark...

Our of curiosity - what sorts of confidence-building exercises do you recommend i.e. what's worked with your babies? Elbie seems fine in class and is quite sociable with other dogs - but you saw for yourself that he wasn't very happy in the offlead section of BDOC that one time when he was surrounded by all those big dogs :D

[poodlefan]

Some dogs like Elbie are just naturally submissive and how they deal with that is pretty individual. Maybe confidence building would help? One of mine is very dominant and the other somewhere in between, so I may be completely off the mark...

Our of curiosity - what sorts of confidence-building exercises do you recommend i.e. what's worked with your babies? Elbie seems fine in class and is quite sociable with other dogs - but you saw for yourself that he wasn't very happy in the offlead section of BDOC that one time when he was surrounded by all those big dogs :D

What worked for my little girl was agility and me protecting her from encounters that made her uncomfortable. She will ask to be picked up if she's not happy with other dog's behaviour and despite what so many folk will tell you to do, I do pick her up. She hasn't got a dominant bone in her body.

My other boy who was fear aggressive is similarly protected - kept away from overly friendly or dominant dogs and no bad encounters has boosted his confidence.

[wuffles]

Hrmm, I don't know whether Elbie needs the same approach as my dogs as they are really different to him personality-wise.

Satch is a naturally dominant dog, but was under-confident when we got him - so all we did with him was take him as many places possible (markets, shops, parks, soccer games, etc) and not make a big fuss. This might be a bit too exciting for Elbie! The first time I took him to a soccer game we sat in the car the whole time as he was scared of the balls. The second time we sat on the edge of the field. The third time we watched the game on the sidelines and now he gladly watches the boys run right past him :D

Similar thing with Ava, we just took her everywhere with us. She's naturally confident though, and having a calm, older dog around has helped her - although she's still a little idiot

I'd be doing one-on-one encounters with other known dogs rather than the rowdiness of the off leash area! I even removed Ava from there the other day because it was just too busy and she was getting over-stimulated. Ava's probably too boisterous for him but I'd be happy to let Elbie meet Satch offleash as he will most likely ignore him.

[corvus]

Teach Elbie to target his nose to your hand. It's super useful and you can use it to take his mind off things that worry him. If he's concentrating on targeting your hand he can't be glancing all around getting stressed about his surroundings. And if you reinforce it enough you can use it to get him to move places he thinks he doesn't want to go to and so forth.

I didn't know there was a "happy" wee and a submissive wee. Thought it was all the same.

[koalathebear]

Teach Elbie to target his nose to your hand. It's super useful and you can use it to take his mind off things that worry him. If he's concentrating on targeting your hand he can't be glancing all around getting stressed about his surroundings. And if you reinforce it enough you can use it to get him to move places he thinks he doesn't want to go to and so forth.

I didn't know there was a "happy" wee and a submissive wee. Thought it was all the same.

Is that the thing where you have a stick and the dog touches the tip of its nose to the tip of the stick? I was at a loss for how to keep him entertained last week so taught him how to do that even though I wasn't quite sure what to do with it after he learned it

As to the wee varieties - I've assumed that they're different given that in puppy class they were so emphatic about the fact that happy wees were because the dogs were excited and happy. There was a huge boxer puppy named Lloyd and he was definitely happy and not stressed/submissive when he wee'd as he came in the room

Edited July 13, 2010 by koalathebear

[koalathebear]

wuffles:

Ava's probably too boisterous for him but I'd be happy to let Elbie meet Satch offleash as he will most likely ignore him.

Thanks heaps for that offer. I think it would be very good for Elborino to meet Satchmo one of these days - as long as you don't think my bouncy dog is going to piss him off. Let me work a bit more on his calmness first before I inflict him on your beautiful boy.

poodlefan:

What worked for my little girl was agility and me protecting her from encounters that made her uncomfortable. She will ask to be picked up if she's not happy with other dog's behaviour and despite what so many folk will tell you to do, I do pick her up. She hasn't got a dominant bone in her body.

My other boy who was fear aggressive is similarly protected - kept away from overly friendly or dominant dogs and no bad encounters has boosted his confidence.

You have no idea how relieved I am to hear that:

1. even someone as experienced with dogs as you are has had to deal with a dog with temperament issues - for some reason I just assumed all your dogs would be perfect models of doggy deportment and placidity; and

2. the temperament issues should be something that can be worked through with time and effort.

Elbie's been heaps better in the last few days so I am hoping that with continued hard work on our part, he'll be able to settle and become a calmer doggy.

[poodlefan]

You have no idea how relieved I am to hear that:

1. even someone as experienced with dogs as you are has had to deal with a dog with temperament issues - for some reason I just assumed all your dogs would be perfect models of doggy deportment and placidity; and

2. the temperament issues should be something that can be worked through with time and effort.

Elbie's been heaps better in the last few days so I am hoping that with continued hard work on our part, he'll be able to settle and become a calmer doggy.

Dogs aren't blank slates KTB. Genes and early environment play a part. My timid girl didn't come to me until she was 8 months old and I think more socialisation may have helped.

Darcy (the fear aggresive boy) does lack confidence. I didn't hesitate to seek professional advice when his behaviour concerned me and I recommend that others do so quite frequently.

Oh, and you sooooo need to read this thread

[koalathebear]

Oh, and you sooooo need to read this thread

Bwahahaha that post is awesome. I'm reading it now - and it should TOTALLY be a sticky post so that daunted newbies like me don't feel so bad

[wuffles]

Thanks heaps for that offer. I think it would be very good for Elborino to meet Satchmo one of these days - as long as you don't think my bouncy dog is going to piss him off. Let me work a bit more on his calmness first before I inflict him on your beautiful boy.

As long as I don't think YOUR bouncy dog will piss him off? You have met Ava right? He has to put up with that 24 hours a day

He is great with crazy puppies and has met plenty of them, so when you feel comfortable give me a buzz and we'll arrange something. I'll make sure I don't get Elbie all excited too

[Genabee]

Oh, and you sooooo need to read this thread

Bwahahaha that post is awesome. I'm reading it now - and it should TOTALLY be a sticky post so that daunted newbies like me don't feel so bad

I just had a read and had a very good laugh! You people feed your dogs maccas??? I don't even feed myself that!

I totally agree! I have had moments with things where I felt others thought I was the devil dog mother! But I have learnt to take it in my stride... I think fundamentally, if you have a happy, healthy dog, you are half way there. And all of us who bother to visit, read and post at this site, whether or not everyone else agrees with our approach to things, we have our pooches best interests at heart. It is still ok to agree to disagree.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I don't think either kind of wee is necessarily a bad thing.

Frosty did the happy wee when really really excited and pleased to see people. I had to manage visitors / new people and the dog. Ie nobody gets to do greetings until we're somewhere wee friendly like the lawn and if you're not going to co-operate you don't get to say hello to the puppy dog at all.

She also does submission ? pee or "I'm the ultimate no threat dog" when greeting other dogs. I can tell it's a "no threat" pee because she's usually upside down already when she does it. She doesn't do it very often now, but when greeting a really big dog - and she initiates the greeting (submission doesn't seem to cut it here), she rolls over and if the big dog goes for the rear end sniff very fast, she pees. If they approach more slowly, she doesn't. If the dog is clearly trying to eat her she clears off before it can get close enough to sniff. She's not entirely stupid.

She wants to be everybody's friend so she will quite happily do the roll over and grovel for the smallest puppy. But I don't think she's the least bit submissive. I guess we could argue about definitions but she doesn't allow herself to be completely dominated or told what to do by other dogs, people or me some of the time.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Mrs Rusty Bucket