Aggression Towards My Girls

[Magstar]

Can I ask if your girls have been involved in training him at all? If not then I would definately suggest that you take them along to puppy preschool with you and involve them. I got my first puppy when I was 13 with the conditions that I feed and train it. My mum made me go to puppy preschool and then obedience classes. I am so grateful for that! I learned so much by having that responsibilty. It also meant that I was top dog and not just "the kid".

If you involve your girls in training the puppy then I am sure that their relationship with him will improve!

I also agree that having him sleep on the couch in not a good habit to let him get into. My puppy gets told "down!" even if his front feet touch the lounge. One day we will allow him up, but even then it will only be by invitation.

Good luck with everything!

[Marley'z Mum]

ok just wanted to let people know.... I witnessed what I was talkin bout today... tis definately aggression, he was awake laying down, she was patting him, he was fine, as soon as she went to pick him up to move him he growled, not a cute growl, but a growl that would scare me if he were a big dog..... so now I am trying to find ways to fix this, starting with having her involved in the training of him, when he did it, I growled a loud UH-UH at him and gave him daggers lol and he puts his head down ears back and wag'd his tail.... so dunno?? any other ideas would be great, and yes there are now rules for the couch

[poodlefan]

ok just wanted to let people know.... I witnessed what I was talkin bout today... tis definately aggression, he was awake laying down, she was patting him, he was fine, as soon as she went to pick him up to move him he growled, not a cute growl, but a growl that would scare me if he were a big dog..... so now I am trying to find ways to fix this, starting with having her involved in the training of him, when he did it, I growled a loud UH-UH at him and gave him daggers lol and he puts his head down ears back and wag'd his tail.... so dunno?? any other ideas would be great, and yes there are now rules for the couch

How about you start with forbidding your daughter from picking him up? Why on earth would you allow her to persist in behaviour that the dog has repeatedly warned her NOT to do??

As I said at the beginning of this thread, disciplining growling may extinguish the warning and escalating him to biting without it.

He isn't biting. He's warning her off. Something about what she does is possibly hurting or making him uncomfortable.

The dog is telling your daughter in no uncertain terms that he doesn't want her to pick him up. For the sake of your daughter and the dog please listen to what he is trying to communicate here.

The only other thing you can do is summon professional help but persistence in the behaviour your dog is warning against may well result in a bite.

If I sound frustrated, its because I am. Short of a banner, what more must this dog do to convince you not to allow your daughters to handle him in this manner when he is clearly very unhappy about it?

Edited July 13, 2010 by poodlefan

[Nekhbet]

if the dog is SIMPLY choosing certain members of the family to growl at then call in a behaviorist. If it exhibits the same behaviours for everyone then a vet check is in order (I would get one anyway to check for pain)

How about you start with forbidding your daughter from picking him up? Why on earth would you allow her to persist in behaviour that the dog has repeatedly warned her NOT to do??

The OP has expressed the dog is selectively aggressive. Professional help needs to be called in for this. They cannot go on living with the two girls avoiding the dog because it doesnt accept them as respectable members of the family.

[poodlefan]

if the dog is SIMPLY choosing certain members of the family to growl at then call in a behaviorist. If it exhibits the same behaviours for everyone then a vet check is in order (I would get one anyway to check for pain)

How about you start with forbidding your daughter from picking him up? Why on earth would you allow her to persist in behaviour that the dog has repeatedly warned her NOT to do??

The OP has expressed the dog is selectively aggressive. Professional help needs to be called in for this. They cannot go on living with the two girls avoiding the dog because it doesnt accept them as respectable members of the family.

I agree. But the only time this 12 week old pup appears to display aggression is he is disturbed while sleeping or the daughters try to pick him up.

I'd certainly not persist in any behaviour a dog growls about - its begging to be bitten.

If the OP can't justify the expense of a crate, a behaviourist consult is probably not going to happen. All that's left to keep the kids safe is to prevent the actions that put them at risk.

Edited July 13, 2010 by poodlefan

[Clyde]

but crates are expensive, i cant justify that kind of money

I'm not sure what your budget is but crates are certainly quite expensive in stores. Have you considered buying one online? From memory Vebo Pets have very good prices, I think less than $100 for a crate which will last you a life time. I would definitely re think getting s crate if it means your children won't be at risk of being bitten.

I know it's hard with kids but like someone said, dogs aren't toys. We have very strict rules here about pets, no picking them up or annoying them. My daughter knows if she picks up a certain pet she will be scratched/bitten and if she annoys my little Tzu while sleeping she will be nipped.

[Danois]

Throwing another idea in - is it possible there is an injury to the pup and when your child goes to move it in some way, it is guarding itself against being hurt?

Perhaps a trip to vet to be on the safe side? Pups can put their backs out easily playing and jumping as they do etc

[poodlefan]

Throwing another idea in - is it possible there is an injury to the pup and when your child goes to move it in some way, it is guarding itself against being hurt?

Perhaps a trip to vet to be on the safe side? Pups can put their backs out easily playing and jumping as they do etc

Agree Dan - eliminating pain as a reason for the behaviour should always be the starting point.

This is a baby puppy obtained from unknown parents of unknown temperament and with a less than ideal start in life - possibly with very little (or inappropriate) handling before being acquired very young by the OP's family. A behavioural consult would be ideal as would a vet check.

Edited July 13, 2010 by poodlefan

[Marley'z Mum]

Ok can I firstly say..... calm down everyone!

Why on earth would you allow her to persist in behaviour that the dog has repeatedly warned her NOT to do??

she moved him, because I asked her to, so it was my fault not her's! he was laying on some of my clean washing and without even thinking I asked her to get him of as I was busy doing dinner, I had just witnessed her patting him so didn't give it a second thought... but don't worry I was quickly reminded, and he wasn't sleeping

If I sound frustrated, its because I am. Short of a banner, what more must this dog do to convince you not to allow your daughters to handle him in this manner when he is clearly very unhappy about it?

thought u may think so, I am far from an idiot! again this was my mistake! yes I think it is probably as simple as he doesn't want her picking him up, because other than this he is more than happy to play with her, cuddle up to her if she is sitting on the floor and allow her to pat him???

If it exhibits the same behaviours for everyone then a vet check is in order (I would get one anyway to check for pain)

He was at the vets on friday, for his 12week needles, he was checked over by the vet then and there was no pain..... from memory when I really think about it, just after we got him, he hurt his side somehow, she picked him up at the time and he winced.... maybe just maybe he associates that pain with her, and mabe he is worried she is going to do it again, rightfully so, probably

again this was all my fault, not the dogs and not my daughters, I am affraid I have made my daughter out to be an annoying pain, when she is far from it, she has a tame budgie that she would much rather play with I can assure u!

I am hoping I can nip this issue in the butt, by 1. stopping her from picking him up or going near him when asleep or about to sleep, 2. by involving her in training him a lil more so he see that she can reward him

A behavioural consult would be ideal as would a vet check.

if I have no success, and the behaviour gets worse of course I would see a behavioural consultant, again not an idiot.... the kids and the dog need to live in harmony, but the kids come first! as much as I adore this lil man, he isn't one of my kids he is a dog!

sorry to upsett people

ETA: I am getting a crate in the next couple of weeks

Edited July 13, 2010 by Marley'z Mum

[Magstar]

Maybe in future it would be better for your daughter to use a food lure to move him, rather than physically removing him. It could very well be that he associates pain with her picking him up.

I'm sorry that you are going through this. It must be very hard, especially for your daughter.

My puppy has started to really dislike being picked up (I won't be able to for much longer because he is getting too big!), so I have started just pretending to pick him up but then give him a treat instead. I hope that will stop him from freaking out when I go to lift him.

[Animal House]

No need for anyone to pick the pup up.

Keep him off the couch by getting (even making) a bed of his own. It can be a cardboard box with some blankets in it, until you can get the crate.

If you want the dog down off something, call him with a treat, and reward him when he gets off. Simple.

[dancinbcs]

Some dogs just hate being picked up. It is a very intimidating thing to do to a dog. He may put up with it from someone he respects for now but it could develop into an issue with everyone in future. If he really doesn't like it don't do it. The other problem you have is not knowing his background or parents temperaments. Some dogs just growl or bite if you do something they don't like and are simply not suitable with kids. Training can only achieve so much but the dog's basic nature will always be there. That is why it is always advised to at least see the mum if you are buying a puppy and you have kids.

I have a dog I bred that doesn't know the meaning of aggression, so would not dream of growling or biting but he has always hated being picked up and struggles as if he has grown 8 legs if I try to lift him. He has always been like that even as a little baby and once he was too big for me to lift easily I had to give away the idea of trying to get him used to it. The problem escalated once he was big enough to jump onto his grooming table and now he is just too big to struggle with. He prefers get onto the grooming table by himself and doesn't want any help. Strangely he loves to jump on my lap for a cuddle and will happily let strangers hug and cuddle him, but just panics if all his feet leave whatever surface he is on. Nothing bad ever happened to him, it is just a quirk within this dog.

[poodlefan]

Marleyz Mum I don't think you're an idiot and I'm not "blaming" anyone. I'm glad you realise that the responsiblity for how your children interact with the pup is yours.

What I fear may happen is that the pup will realise its warnings aren't working and escalate to biting. Once that first bite happens, his bite threshold will plummet and he'll use what he knows will work for ANY undesireable behaviour.

This is a safety issue and I'd really hate to see a bitten child and a dog that may be unsuitable to remain in your home.

I'm glad you're taking this seriously. My concern is that you were not. You need to sit the kids down and talk about what's happening and tell them why for both their sakes AND the pups that they need to work on moving him without picking him up.

He's only going to get bigger. Best to start using methods now that you can use for the rest of his life.

EFS

Edited July 13, 2010 by poodlefan

[persephone]

No need for anyone to pick the pup up.

Keep him off the couch by getting (even making) a bed of his own. It can be a cardboard box with some blankets in it, until you can get the crate.

If you want the dog down off something, call him with a treat, and reward him when he gets off. Simple.

!!!!!!!!!

You may also find some helpful stuff in THIS E BOOK

What I fear may happen is that the pup will realise its warnings aren't working and esclate to biting. Once that first bite happens, his bite threshold will plummet and he'll use what he knows will work for ANY undesireablel behaviour.

This is a safety issue and I'd really hate to see a bitten child and a dog that may be unsuitable to remain in your home.

X2

Edited July 13, 2010 by persephone

[WreckitWhippet]

I'll be honest here, you are setting this puppy up for failure.

Do not allow the kids to pick him up or disturb him when alseep, he's warning them that he's not happy with that, yet it continues.

Get some professional help now, because quite frankly it's beyond you at this point in time to make an assessment and put in place a plan that is in the best interests of the puppy and your children.

[Nekhbet]

ahhaaaa ok so there WAS some pain and he maybe associated it with your girls causing it again.

As for moving the dog try luring with food, if it doesnt work you be the one to move him straight away. Dont let your daughteres get into a confrontation.

Now some confidence work. This is best if the pup is really hungry. Get some lovely food like shredded chicken and have your daughters sit on the floor WITH YOU. Start slowly running their hands up and down the pup while he gets made a fuss over and fed. Start slow, just on his back, then start more down near his tummy, etc go as far as the dog is comfortable. If he starts to look tucked up, nervous, too quiet etc just cut the exercise there and end on a happy note. Dont make it a quiet affair and nervous, I would make a ruckus, get that pup excited about being touched all over and show there is nothing going on with your kids.

Do this at least as a start. If you need more advice in the mean time feel free to email me.

[Monah]

Nothing to add really that has not been said by very experienced people.

I agree that please move the dog another way, either by calling or luring with food/toy. I can't say I've ever moved a dog by picking it up If the dog has an issue with the girls, it would be best not to ask them to move him.

I know that The Warehouse (was silly sollys once) did have crates very cheap, around $60 for a fairly large one. Good luck, keep pup and children safe xxx

[corvus]

Counter-conditioning is one of the most powerful and useful tools I think anyone working with animals has at their disposal. I have a hare I am limited to desensitising if there is a problem, and believe me, CC is the bees knees! I would give my eye teeth to be able to CC the hare. It's simple and can be applied to pretty much anything. Just follow Nekhbet's instructions.

Only thing is I would NOT make it an exciting affair. Personally, when I touch my dogs I don't want them to be excited. I want them to start calming down. I don't want them to be quivering in anticipation. A lot of the time I am wanting them to be sleepy and calm because I'm doing things like grooming them, checking them over, or doing their nails. I want them to be so relaxed they are practically comatose.

I seem to be saying this a lot lately, but teach him to target your hand with his nose. It's so useful! Whenever you don't have treats on you you can just hold out your hand and say "touch" and chances are he'll forget about whatever he was going to do and come and put his nose on your hand. It's a great, safe, happy way to get him to move. It's so easy to teach why not get your daughter to teach him?

[W Sibs]

Deals direct has crates that's reasonable price... I'm totally against crate training at first, but now I think it's very handy

crate

Edited July 14, 2010 by CW EW

[Nekhbet]

I can't say I've ever moved a dog by picking it up

I'm assuming its a small breed. I do it with mums pomeranian because sometimes the little brat prince wont move and he has a grumble. Only because he doesnt want to get off his butt when told.