Hon.d.boyle Kill Amstaffs Set Pit Bulls Free?

[wiseguy]

This case was followed with much anxiety by many bull breed owners & the subsequent groans of disbelief reverberated around the country at this revelation was like rolling thunder.

It was in fact the APBT with a name change & a legitimate standard. A siimilar scenario to when an application for a prefix name is rejected, one reapplies with a different name.

Come on Chrissy, you can do better than that.

Re Chivers;I think that unless you've walked a mile in someone elses shoes may not understand where it is they're coming from. I fully support what they were trying to achieve.

The GCCC are bumbling fools who were desperate to win against Kylie and Jon at all costs, the ACO's involved in the case proved themselves less than professional, and when reports etc.. "are lost" you question their honesty.

Honestry?

What an interesting concept.

What is honest when everyone involved isn't?

In a different place, at different time, in a different social climate, American Staffordshire Terrier people, those that actually know the history of their chosen breed, would proudly, & rightly so, declare their breed to be the true, the authentic APBT, the genuine article. A breed forward thinking persons who foresaw the controversies that currently plague it, so sought to have it accepted onto it's country of origins pure breed registry, with the real breed description, so as to preserve the genuine article for posterity.

Has there ever been a genuine APBT in Australia, other than the AST that is? I doubt it.

One other ''irregularity'' of Chrissies to ponder, if the UKC was formed over one hundred years ago, yet the Staffordshire Bull Terrier wasn't granted pure breed status until 1935 in its country of origin, a mere 76 years ago, & not until 1974 in the USA, 37 years ago, how could the APBT be a descendant of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier?

Just being the devils advocate, honest.

Although my previous post was certainly truthful & honest, honest,

[geo]

Has there ever been a genuine APBT in Australia, other than the AST that is? I doubt it.

One other ''irregularity'' of Chrissies to ponder, if the UKC was formed over one hundred years ago, yet the Staffordshire Bull Terrier wasn't granted pure breed status until 1935 in its country of origin, a mere 76 years ago, & not until 1974 in the USA, 37 years ago, how could the APBT be a descendant of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier?

Just being the devils advocate, honest.

Although my previous post was certainly truthful & honest, honest,

That many years ago so called dogmen were less concerned about certain breed but more into Type, which is where some areas of origin for the APBT vary.

Many articles state that they come from Bull terrier type dogs from the UK, some say the old buldog/ or bull & Terrier... just because they weren't in a kennel club means nothing to me.

I'm sure there's genuine APBT's in Australia other than the AKNC amstaffs and the American Imported amstaffs probably have apbt papers somewhere along the lines..? , though I'm happy to call them amstaffs if that suits everyone.

I have no proof but have been told that they were imported before breed bans...

Do you have an issue with Tybrax?

[wiseguy]

Has there ever been a genuine APBT in Australia, other than the AST that is? I doubt it.

One other ''irregularity'' of Chrissies to ponder, if the UKC was formed over one hundred years ago, yet the Staffordshire Bull Terrier wasn't granted pure breed status until 1935 in its country of origin, a mere 76 years ago, & not until 1974 in the USA, 37 years ago, how could the APBT be a descendant of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier?

Just being the devils advocate, honest.

Although my previous post was certainly truthful & honest, honest,

That many years ago so called dogmen were less concerned about certain breed but more into Type, which is where some areas of origin for the APBT vary.

Many articles state that they come from Bull terrier type dogs from the UK, some say the old buldog/ or bull & Terrier... just because they weren't in a kennel club means nothing to me.

I'm sure there's genuine APBT's in Australia other than the AKNC amstaffs and the American Imported amstaffs probably have apbt papers somewhere along the lines..? , though I'm happy to call them amstaffs if that suits everyone.

I have no proof but have been told that they were imported before breed bans...

Do you have an issue with Tybrax?

Do I have an issue with Tybrax?

No. I admire & support her & her supporters fight against the terrible genocide of her preferred breed in Qld.

They are also victims of the worst of owners.

Want I don't support is deliberate misrepresentation, not for any reason.

I deplore the GCCC & their apparent determination to persecute any square headed dog without pure breed registration.

However, the GCCC sat in the court & looked on, probably smiling, as the litigants case was destroyed by her own so called expert witness. That is the truth.

Anyone who followed the case will know that is the truth.

To say otherwise is not . & I wont support any such suggestion.

there was so much misinformation in Chrissies post I was gobsmacked. Disillusioned actually.

And laying a guilt trip on the other bull breed owners isn't much of a plan either, the facts of the matter is so called ''pitbulls'' are being maliciously misrepesented as ASTs & SBTs & those breeds are now under the hammer with their owners now having their own battles to fight.

One for you geo, did bull terriers really play any part in the development of the APBT? I haven't heard or read information to support that theory.

The English dogs that were the ancestors of the APBT were known as bull & terriers & they were much bigger than the Staffordshire Bull Terrier we know.

That they were the ancestors of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier & the American Pitbull terrier is generally acknowledged, . However to declare the APBT to be the descentant of the SBT is not true.

BTW, the Bull Terrier could possibly be declared to be the first ''designer dog'', created for appearance rather than function.

The SBT can rightly lay claim to being the genuine ""Bull Terrier

[geo]

And laying a guilt trip on the other bull breed owners isn't much of a plan either, the facts of the matter is so called ''pitbulls'' are being maliciously misrepesented as ASTs & SBTs & those breeds are now under the hammer with their owners now having their own battles to fight.

The thing is that most people now are buying amstaffs with or without papers and they're the ones who're going to ruin the breed, especially while AKNC rego'd breeders advertise dogs with massive heads, huge muscle mass etc..

These breeders are doing it to the breed, not pitbull owners.

I'm not so sure about your facts but i've yet to read a case where a dog that has attacked has been proven to be a pitbull but the owner has called them a staffy.

Usually they'll be accused of being a pitbull first so generally the damage has already been done, and as usual the pitbull is at the rough end of the deal not the other way around.

There's plenty of AST's and SBT's (that are big enough to look like a pitbull) and there's plenty out there more than capable of misbehaving, I hope you don't think that having a pure bred papered dog makes it less likey to attack?

[wiseguy]

And laying a guilt trip on the other bull breed owners isn't much of a plan either, the facts of the matter is so called ''pitbulls'' are being maliciously misrepesented as ASTs & SBTs & those breeds are now under the hammer with their owners now having their own battles to fight.

The thing is that most people now are buying amstaffs with or without papers and they're the ones who're going to ruin the breed, especially while AKNC rego'd breeders advertise dogs with massive heads, huge muscle mass etc..

These breeders are doing it to the breed, not pitbull owners.

I'm not so sure about your facts but i've yet to read a case where a dog that has attacked has been proven to be a pitbull but the owner has called them a staffy.

Usually they'll be accused of being a pitbull first so generally the damage has already been done, and as usual the pitbull is at the rough end of the deal not the other way around.

There's plenty of AST's and SBT's (that are big enough to look like a pitbull) and there's plenty out there more than capable of misbehaving, I hope you don't think that having a pure bred papered dog makes it less likey to attack?

Sorry geo, but cross breeds are neither Staffordshire Bull Terriers nor American Staffordshire Terriers. Nor any other pure breed for that matter.

A genuine, well bred SBT is not as big as a pitbull, how every big that is?

However, your uninformed descriptions should be a warning & serve to encourage any person genuinely wanting either of the pure breeds you seek to denigrate to do research & seek out only ethical ANKC registered breeders. How do you know which are the ethical. That is the reason the research is necessary.

Every savvy dog person knows any dog is capable of attacking, try the Maltese for example. Horrible little creatures.

The pure breed SBT is the least likely to attack a person as a matter of fact. Bold, fearless, totally reliable.

To deny the constant misrepresentation of dogs of dubious breeding as ASTs & SBTs is a display of duplicity in the charade.

Shame geo, shame.

[geo]

Sorry geo, but cross breeds are neither Staffordshire Bull Terriers nor American Staffordshire Terriers. Nor any other pure breed for that matter.

A genuine, well bred SBT is not as big as a pitbull, how every big that is?

However, your uninformed descriptions should be a warning & serve to encourage any person genuinely wanting either of the pure breeds you seek to denigrate to do research & seek out only ethical ANKC registered breeders. How do you know which are the ethical. That is the reason the research is necessary.

Every savvy dog person knows any dog is capable of attacking, try the Maltese for example. Horrible little creatures.

The pure breed SBT is the least likely to attack a person as a matter of fact. Bold, fearless, totally reliable.

To deny the constant misrepresentation of dogs of dubious breeding as ASTs & SBTs is a display of duplicity in the charade.

Shame geo, shame.

If you read the apbt breed standards you will also note a "solid disposition, fearless, bold etc.." or words to that effect.

I'm surprised you don't know how big pure bred apbt's are, you sure seem to "know" a lot, I have met plenty of 20kg staffies, easily big enough to pass for apbt, sure they look different to us but to the news reporter they look like pitties so unfortunately that gets reported, not vice versa as you keep saying.

I do not seek to denigrate any pure breeds, how you came to that conclusion i never know.

Staffies are incredibly popular and sadly they too are involved in dog bite statistics, more so i may add that apbt's (again if you read my posts you'll know i don't read too much into stats)

If SBT's are your beloved breed then i understand your viewpoint but bagging everyone else out is not the way to win people minds, To deny the facts that plenty of staffies are involved in dog attacks is a display of "duplicity in the charade".

I have owned an SBT so i noticed when they were in the media spotlight for the wrong reasons, it certainly wasn't because the dogs involved were pitbulls and not SBT's, or people saying their pitbulls were infact SBT's.

Shame on me, I think not wiseguy. maybe you should change your name to, "narrow minded breedest looking to save his own kind"? does that fit?

Edited February 24, 2011 by geo

[wiseguy]

The name is appropriate geo. More than you will ever realise.

I haven't ''bagged out anyones breed. Merely expressed concern at the seemingly never ending torrent of misinformation.

Maybe you should actually read the UKC standard for the APBT, & after you do, you can then tell me how big the APBT actually is.

Sure hell can't get a handle on it from reading their breed description. from 35lb to somewhere near infinity.

The media reports what they are told geo. So when the report says SBT you can back it in they are reporting what the owner of the dog involved has told them.

If the incident involves another dog, I'm sorry the owner didn't keep his stafford under control. If the incident involves a person, I am sorry the stafford is again copping the blame for the deeds of some bogans pitbull.

EDIT.

Btw geo. I make no apologies for trying to protect my breed.

It wasn't necessary prior to the introduction of the BSL.

That should tell you something.

Then again, maybe not.

Edited February 24, 2011 by wiseguy

[geo]

The media reports what they are told geo. So when the report says SBT you can back it in they are reporting what the owner of the dog involved has told them.

If the incident involves another dog, I'm sorry the owner didn't keep his stafford under control. If the incident involves a person, I am sorry the stafford is again copping the blame for the deeds of some bogans pitbull.

I don't agree, the poor lady that died in Toowomba was reportedly attacked by a pitbull... But it was a Bull terrier x lab. This helped ban the pitbull but they had nothing to do with that attack..

I've lost count of the times the media will immediately say "pitbull attacks" with absolutely no proof of breed. I had people cross the road because they thought my SBT was a pitbull, even people at dog classes, so t think the media doesn't try to sensationalise an attack with the words "pitbull" is just plain wrong.

BSL in the USA & UK is about TYPE (though SBT in the UK are not restricted), BSL here is about trying to seperate the type by paperwok, and fortunately it's saving alot of AST"s, but the poor ones without paperwork are on a slippery slope to the injection room.

If you seriously believe that your dog is so far removed from the bogans pitbull down the road you are delusional.

The difference is that if you owned the bogans pitbull I'm sure you would have raised a better dog / bought one from a decent breeder etc.. The thing is bogans own SBT's and AST's in more numbers than pure bred pitbulls, they don't care where they come from, they don't read this forum to expand their knowledge about their chosen breed and this is the problem all the breeds are facing.

How you come to the conclusion that just because a dog attacks a human it must be a pitbull i never know, what a bigoted view point, i suppose all the criminals in your area are black, the women don't leave the kitchen, pitbulls have lock jaw, and the good lord above created the world in 7 days..!!!

[wiseguy]

The media reports what they are told geo. So when the report says SBT you can back it in they are reporting what the owner of the dog involved has told them.

If the incident involves another dog, I'm sorry the owner didn't keep his stafford under control. If the incident involves a person, I am sorry the stafford is again copping the blame for the deeds of some bogans pitbull.

I don't agree, the poor lady that died in Toowomba was reportedly attacked by a pitbull... But it was a Bull terrier x lab. This helped ban the pitbull but they had nothing to do with that attack..

I've lost count of the times the media will immediately say "pitbull attacks" with absolutely no proof of breed. I had people cross the road because they thought my SBT was a pitbull, even people at dog classes, so t think the media doesn't try to sensationalise an attack with the words "pitbull" is just plain wrong.

BSL in the USA & UK is about TYPE (though SBT in the UK are not restricted), BSL here is about trying to seperate the type by paperwok, and fortunately it's saving alot of AST"s, but the poor ones without paperwork are on a slippery slope to the injection room.

If you seriously believe that your dog is so far removed from the bogans pitbull down the road you are delusional.

The difference is that if you owned the bogans pitbull I'm sure you would have raised a better dog / bought one from a decent breeder etc.. The thing is bogans own SBT's and AST's in more numbers than pure bred pitbulls, they don't care where they come from, they don't read this forum to expand their knowledge about their chosen breed and this is the problem all the breeds are facing.

How you come to the conclusion that just because a dog attacks a human it must be a pitbull i never know, what a bigoted view point, i suppose all the criminals in your area are black, the women don't leave the kitchen, pitbulls have lock jaw, and the good lord above created the world in 7 days..!!!

You really are a sorry piece of work geo.

I plead not guilty to everything you have stated. People can make up their minds about that.

Not much point in trying to have meaniful discussion with you.

You are not a devils advocate, you are an agent provocateur. And an ill informed, spitefull one at that.

Maybe if you actually knew something about the subject you would have some credibility.

Whether that ever happens is doubtful though.

Au Revoir.

Edited February 24, 2011 by wiseguy

[geo]

You really are a sorry piece of work geo.

I plead not guilty to everything you have stated. People can make up their minds about that.

Not much point in trying to have meaniful discussion with you.

You are not a devils advocate, you are an agent provocateur. And an ill informed, spitefull one at that.

Maybe if you actually knew something about the subject you would have some credibility.

Whether that ever happens is doubtful though.

Au Revoir.

It was meaningful until you posted things like this, "If the incident involves a person, I am sorry the stafford is again copping the blame for the deeds of some bogans pitbull." Have you ever owned a pitbull?

I understand you don't want the SBT being misrepresented by people who own lookalike dogs, but the same goes for pitbull owners who don't want any 'joe' owning one and having the potential to harm the breed even more. This side of your discusion i completely agree with.

Not all pitbull owners are bogans, some are great, just like not all SBT owners are great.

Blaming pitbulls for the potential demise of SBT's is not the way to try to protect them, especially as there are thousands more staffies around than pitbulls.

Sure there are pitbull types about and unfortunately staffie crosses fall into that category, which is exactly why BSL doesn't work and is not fair.

PS I do know plenty about the subject, I just choose not to lecture people about it. Where ever you believe the AST, APBT, come from it doesn't make one an angel and the other a monster, neither does it make one ounce of difference in changing BSL laws.

BSL has not reduced dog attacks, calling dogs a different name will not reduce dog attacks, only social change and education will help reduce dog attacks.

Until then i suggest people with pitbull type dogs, start working to get rid of BSL instead of trying to protect just one breed.

[wiseguy]

You really are a sorry piece of work geo.

I plead not guilty to everything you have stated. People can make up their minds about that.

Not much point in trying to have meaniful discussion with you.

You are not a devils advocate, you are an agent provocateur. And an ill informed, spitefull one at that.

Maybe if you actually knew something about the subject you would have some credibility.

Whether that ever happens is doubtful though.

Au Revoir.

It was meaningful until you posted things like this, "If the incident involves a person, I am sorry the stafford is again copping the blame for the deeds of some bogans pitbull." Have you ever owned a pitbull?

I understand you don't want the SBT being misrepresented by people who own lookalike dogs, but the same goes for pitbull owners who don't want any 'joe' owning one and having the potential to harm the breed even more. This side of your discusion i completely agree with.

Not all pitbull owners are bogans, some are great, just like not all SBT owners are great.

Blaming pitbulls for the potential demise of SBT's is not the way to try to protect them, especially as there are thousands more staffies around than pitbulls.

Sure there are pitbull types about and unfortunately staffie crosses fall into that category, which is exactly why BSL doesn't work and is not fair.

PS I do know plenty about the subject, I just choose not to lecture people about it. Where ever you believe the AST, APBT, come from it doesn't make one an angel and the other a monster, neither does it make one ounce of difference in changing BSL laws.

BSL has not reduced dog attacks, calling dogs a different name will not reduce dog attacks, only social change and education will help reduce dog attacks.

Until then i suggest people with pitbull type dogs, start working to get rid of BSL instead of trying to protect just one breed.

One more time. One for the road.

It isn't/wasn't a BSL discussion, it is/was a misrepresentation issue.

Just as you are misrepresenting what I said now. It's obviously endemic.

As an example, & regarding dog/human contact, statistics from a couple of years ago showed there wasn't one dog bite reported that involved a KC registered Staffordshire Bull Terrier In the Greater London area. There were estimated 100,000 KC registered SBTs living in the London area at the time..

There has never been a case of dog attack by a registered CKC Staffordshire Bull Terrier reported in Canada. Ditto AKC USA.

A breed doesn't get to be the most popular terrier in world & one the top ten most popular breeds over all if they are as unreliable as the bite statistics, & people like you, would suggest.

And I know most PB lovers are responsible,( as are the vast majority of dog owners in general), that is not the point, those that aren't pull the SBT/AST cloak over their shoulders whenever their dogs are involved in an ''incident''. Which is still much to often despite the restrictions required by the BSL.

The only proof of probable pure breed status is ANKC registration.

The chances of an ANKC registered SBT being involved in unprovokes attacks upon humans are about the same as Harvey Norman not having a sale this w/e, or next, or the one after, ad infinitum.

I wont put my rubbish in your bin if you don't put yours in mine, accept responsibility for own, deal?

Edit

"If the incident involves a person, I am sorry the stafford is again copping the blame for the deeds of some bogans pitbull."

The point of the sentence is ''bogan'' not ''pitbull''

You appear to have missed the point. Again. Still.

Edited February 24, 2011 by wiseguy

[Robbi]

Not all Pit bulls are owned by bogans There are plenty of Pit Bulls owned by responsible dog owners but the media isn't interested in portraying their favourite monster as a loved and loving family pet.

What we as a dog loving community have to do is stop the infighting between us and turn our focus on stopping the spread of bsl before more innocent dogs are caught up in this witch hunt. We dont want to save Pit Bulls by causing other breeds to become targeted, we should be aiming for each dog to be judged as an individual regardless of breed/type or look of the owner. We are not allowed to do racial profiling on people so this should also be applied to dogs.

A dog should never be taken by council rangers because of what they may/may not be.

[geo]

One more time. One for the road.

It isn't/wasn't a BSL discussion, it is/was a misrepresentation issue.

Just as you are misrepresenting what I said now. It's obviously endemic.

As an example, & regarding dog/human contact, statistics from a couple of years ago showed there wasn't one dog bite reported that involved a KC registered Staffordshire Bull Terrier In the Greater London area. There were estimated 100,000 KC registered SBTs living in the London area at the time..

There has never been a case of dog attack by a registered CKC Staffordshire Bull Terrier reported in Canada. Ditto AKC USA.

A breed doesn't get to be the most popular terrier in world & one the top ten most popular breeds over all if they are as unreliable as the bite statistics, & people like you, would suggest.

And I know most PB lovers are responsible,( as are the vast majority of dog owners in general), that is not the point, those that aren't pull the SBT/AST cloak over their shoulders whenever their dogs are involved in an ''incident''. Which is still much to often despite the restrictions required by the BSL.

The only proof of probable pure breed status is ANKC registration.

The chances of an ANKC registered SBT being involved in unprovokes attacks upon humans are about the same as Harvey Norman not having a sale this w/e, or next, or the one after, ad infinitum.

I wont put my rubbish in your bin if you don't put yours in mine, accept responsibility for own, deal?

Of course this is about BSL, that's why we're on this forum.

People like me read the QLD report on dog bites and SBT's were above APBTs. Again that doesn't bother me as I agree for the most part that the dogs are probably a crossbred or lookalies but for you to think they're all pitbulls is ludicrous, yes i know the point is bogans but stop saying pitbulls are the problem!!

Also i'm not sure where bite stats mention KC rego's, maybe the ACO's or Cops ask the offending dog, "excuse me sir are you a member of a kennel or breed club, because this will certainly disqualify your membership"!!!

Same as the only proof of a dog being an APBT is 6 gen paperwork, as we all know there are no experts in breed ID, (thanks Kylie and jon)

If you read my previous post you'd understand that i agree with most of what you say, just don't slander the pitbull where clearly the offending breed is not APBT, same as it's not pure bred SBTs

[wiseguy]

Ah, pitbull people.

Any wonder the bsl is so entrenched.

They claim their dogs are ''pure breeds'' while at the same time claiming they can't be positively identified.

Does that mean to say one owner of this so called pure breed cannot recognise another so called pure breed of the same breed owned by someone else? That's mind boggling. They must be the only pure breed anything on the planet so afflicted.

Or is it they just wont identify them, preferring to allow other breeds wear the blame for their on going exploits in public relations?

BTW, they are not recgonised as a pure breed by the AKC, the only pure breed registry in the USA with international accreditation, they never have been, they never will be.

So maybe you are right, they are really generic SBTs & ASTs after all.

[geo]

Ah, pitbull people.

Any wonder the bsl is so entrenched.

They claim their dogs are ''pure breeds'' while at the same time claiming they can't be positively identified.

Does that mean to say one owner of this so called pure breed cannot recognise another so called pure breed of the same breed owned by someone else? That's mind boggling. They must be the only pure breed anything on the planet so afflicted.

Or is it they just wont identify them, preferring to allow other breeds wear the blame for their on going exploits in public relations?

BTW, they are not recgonised as a pure breed by the AKC, the only pure breed registry in the USA with international accreditation, they never have been, they never will be.

So maybe you are right, they are really generic SBTs & ASTs after all.

You can't tar all people with the sweep of one brush, unless you know all pitbull people. I'm quite sure that not all SBT and AST owners share your views.

I've lost count of the amount of times people say it's not a pure breed, you know there's also another few hundred breeds that the AKC doesn't recognise, along with the fact that they're stud books were open several times to the APBT until i think the 70's.

I'm quite sure there's no interest in APBT people wanting AKC affiliation, they have the show dog so it doesn't really matter, it would probably only muddy the waters even more.

This isn't a dog problem, it's a people problem. As Robbi put it, wouldn't all bull breed owners be better off fighting BSL together? i have posted several times that i feel thee same way.

If you only want to save the ANKC registered dogs then I feel really sorry for you. As i assume you're a dog lover you'd think that all dogs deserve a fair chance.

Plus you have still yet to provide an instance of a dog attack where someone has called the dog a staffy when it has later been proven to be a pitbull, and where the media has reported it as a staffy. Most of your argument is circumstantial backed up with supposition and you're scared because of the uncertain future that bull breeds face and are desperately trying to protect your breed (which as i've said i understand) but laying the blame squarely on the pitbull and it's owners isn't justified.

How about the BYBers? how about the hundred plus breeders of SBT's on this site? (they can't all be perfect) how about spending more time lobbying for the good of dogs in general, you can write a good letter, Though i'd leave out the french it would only confuse our local pollies.

My dogs are calling force majeure, act of dog and need walking.

Edited February 25, 2011 by geo

[wiseguy]

i'm out.

You have twisted everything I have said & degenerated a discussion into a slanging match.

That's not my style.

[geo]

Have you not taken any note of the positives i've written? or the bit where i said i agree with you...?

It certainly isn't a slanging match, besides calling you narrow minded I've yet to sling a single slur your way.

Feel free to make your point without getting smart and throwing 'facts' around, try adding a solution into the mix and then it may turn out better.

Certainly wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers on purpose.