Hon.d.boyle Kill Amstaffs Set Pit Bulls Free?

[geo]

Good on ya both!!!!! when will tango be allowed home??

Any news on validity of DNA testing?

[kylielou]

Thanks All

Now has anyone worked out the back story:

With the fact that an Amstaff is not a Restricted dog;

The Trial and judgement, Chivers Vs Gold Coast City Council, that an Amstaff is a Pit bull terrier,

Then Pit bulls are not restricted either!

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=193107

The law is the law!

John

[chriswiddler]

The AST and APBT and even the SBT are one and the same breed. The DNA confusion is because people think they own an APBT when they don't. ADBA even issue papers to Aussie ASTs if they can trace their history back to US imports. AKC opens it's stud registry to APBTs as their gene pool is so low. Rather than fighting over what breed of dog someone has better to fight BSL and it's proponents before our ability to own and breed dogs is taken from us completely. DNA testing does not identify purebreds, just closely related dogs. Given that over a century ago Bostons were APBTs it is not surprising they show up in APBT and AST dog's history.

Sorry but they are not one and the same dog.Some may look the same but in this day and age they differ considerably in this country.In the US you will find dogs that are far more closely related.The ADBA does not issue papers to Aussie Amstaffs nor have they ever,you may be confusing it with the UKC who did register Amstaffs as pitbulls.This however does not happen anymore.As of April 30th this year the UKC has stopped single registrations of American Pitbull Terriers.No more will be registered unless bred from already registered UKC stock.The AKC does not open its stud book to pitbulls either.It has happened twice for short periods and the last time was a long time ago.Posting misinformation does not help the situation.I dont think the confusion about DNA is becuase people think they have a pitbull I dont actually think the test is that accurate.people have sent in samples from pure bred dogs and they have comeback with varying breeds in the mix.The pitbull gene pool is diverse and would in my mind be harder to pin down.Boston Terriers were bred down from pitbulls in the halcion days of dog fighting in and around Boston so they are a pitbull cross not the other way round.

There are many ASTs with ADBA APBT papers in Australia. The AKC has opened it's studbooks on three occasions to APBTs. The dogs are indistinguishable especially with color laser printers able to run off any papers you like. Any AST without papers is a dead dog. All the major lines come from fighting APBTs. Now tell me they are a different breed. Dogs Qld has simlpy helped sign the death sentence to thousands more dogs by not opposing BSL along with the RSPCA.

[chriswiddler]

Thanks All

Now has anyone worked out the back story:

With the fact that an Amstaff is not a Restricted dog;

The Trial and judgement, Chivers Vs Gold Coast City Council, that an Amstaff is a Pit bull terrier,

Then Pit bulls are not restricted either!

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=193107

The law is the law!

John

I hope you are right.

[geo]

Thanks All

Now has anyone worked out the back story:

With the fact that an Amstaff is not a Restricted dog;

The Trial and judgement, Chivers Vs Gold Coast City Council, that an Amstaff is a Pit bull terrier,

Then Pit bulls are not restricted either!

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=193107

The law is the law!

John

Oh this just gets better!! what a twist!

what i didn't like was Cr Dawns statement inferring that pitbulls can't be trained to make good pets whereas amstaffs can be. (well that's how i read it)

So if the Judge says "they're the same", council said they're the same, now they say amstaffs are all good, they can't ID pitbulls or amstaffs, what the hell are they going to do?

Even before DNA testing whereo and mau, they should just give them back as they can't possibly win a case with all the things they've said, now amstaffs are safe... If i was their owners i'd be at the pound with my lawyer demanding them back.

I hope all the people who bagged out Kylie & Jon and will now come on this forum and congratulate them for doing such a good job and standing up for all dogs and the people who aren't as law savvy as they are.

[KJS]

What are they going to do now?

My guess is that they will continue trying to bluff owners into surrendering their dogs but cave in at the first sign of a challenge.

It appears they have basically admitted that their 22 point check is useless. Pitbull=Amstaff and they can't tell the difference.

I really can't see what leg they have to stand on now.

It will be interesting to see the outcome for Rangi's dogs.

I do hope they are home very soon.

Again big thumbs to everyone involved. Your persistence is inspirational.

[RottnBullies]

I hope all the people who bagged out Kylie & Jon and will now come on this forum and congratulate them for doing such a good job and standing up for all dogs and the people who aren't as law savvy as they are.

That would be nice and also polite, and even an apology for their nastiness.........but fat chance on that happening Is my guess!

At best those people should be EATING their words by now!

I say Well Done to ALL Involved

Edited July 31, 2010 by RottnBullies

[GeckoTree]

Fantastic news re qld laws

[Baz+Rome]

Fantastic news for the Amstaff. A huge thanks to all involved. Thank you for not giving up.

Considering the Council deemed the Amstaff and the APBT the same dog, one would like to think if the Amstaff was safe then so must be the APBT??????

[bulldogz4eva]

There are many ASTs with ADBA APBT papers in Australia. The AKC has opened it's studbooks on three occasions to APBTs. The dogs are indistinguishable especially with color laser printers able to run off any papers you like. Any AST without papers is a dead dog. All the major lines come from fighting APBTs. Now tell me they are a different breed. Dogs Qld has simlpy helped sign the death sentence to thousands more dogs by not opposing BSL along with the RSPCA.

No there is not.The ADBA has never knowingly registered amstaffs as pitbulls ever.Considering you have to supply papers from another registry to single register dogs it cant happen.If you are talking about people hanging papers on pups that happens everywhere but why would someone be stupid enough in this country to hang pitbull papers on amstaffs.I think you may be right it may be 3 times they have opened their studbooks but the las time was a fair while ago and it will never happen again.There gene pool is now wide enough it doesnt need the blood.The dogs are so distinguishable in this country,not so in the US where lines have been crossed back an forth for ever.Of course all the major lines come from fighting lines that is their history but 75 years of show breeding has moved them far enough in the opposite direction.I agree that canine councils should have done more to nip it in the bud and oppose bsl instead of saying we oppose bsl and doing nothing else.At the end of the day do you blame them?I used to but I dont now.If the dogs werent registered with them it is not their fight.Why would they invest time and money into something that is not their fight so the irresponsible can continue to be irresponsible.Its hard to swallow I know but that is the crux of it.By the looks of it they have done something.

Congratulations to all concerned at getting a favorable outcome

[tybrax]

A huge thank you to John and Kylie and there team, and to all the people that stood by us and wrote letters, sent in submissions.

Thank you for you dedication over the last 6 years, without you this would of never happened. Amstaffs are safe because of you.

Go the 4 mousekeeters.

tybrax

[RottnBullies]

It Is 3 times that the AKC opened up It's stud books and the last time was as recent as the 1970's. I don't see that as a fair while back when talking about dog breeds

[RottnBullies]

A huge thank you to John and Kylie and there team, and to all the people that stood by us and wrote letters, sent in submissions.

Thank you for you dedication over the last 6 years, without you this would of never happened. Amstaffs are safe because of you.

Go the 4 mousekeeters.

tybrax

x 2

[bulldogz4eva]

It Is 3 times that the AKC opened up It's stud books and the last time was as recent as the 1970's. I don't see that as a fair while back when talking about dog breeds

Well I guess we see it differently I knwo the last time was in the seventies and when you are talking 35 years or so that is nearly half as long as the amstaff has been around and in that long you can breed 20 generations deep so in dog breeding terms it is a long time.

[rep628]

BITSA actually states it does not guarantee purebreed of dogs, just what is in their background. How does that play with a dual regfistered AKC/UKC dog is anyone's guess. Eventually it may be possible to identify breeds by DNA but it is not possible at the moment. Otherwise a breed signature would be valid the world over, which of course it isn't.

So true,

My Spanish/Belgium line Amstaff (born in Venezuala, raised in Canada, Father has sired numerous titled Amstaff litters in Canada, even some of the line is found here in Aus) is apparently only 0.23 percent American Staffordshire Terrier according to the BITSA test.

Riiiiiight - because somehow I paid a lot of money for a pedigreed "mutt" that some silly kennel organization back in Canada would let me step into the ring with. And I can to this day step into any cccg/dogs nsw show ring and make a run for a title.

Still, interesting to ponder

Rebecca

[rep628]

Thanks All

Now has anyone worked out the back story:

With the fact that an Amstaff is not a Restricted dog;

The Trial and judgement, Chivers Vs Gold Coast City Council, that an Amstaff is a Pit bull terrier,

Then Pit bulls are not restricted either!

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=193107

The law is the law!

John ;) ;)

VERY interesting indeed..

Any word on what's the next step? Are we writing letters to councils/state reminding them of this fact? Count me in - We're supposed to be moving to Ipswich/Brisbane City in the next 3 weeks. My female, Autumn could really use the additional protection. Otherwise, they're going to have to deal with one raging Canadian

[chriswiddler]

It Is 3 times that the AKC opened up It's stud books and the last time was as recent as the 1970's. I don't see that as a fair while back when talking about dog breeds ;)

Well I guess we see it differently I knwo the last time was in the seventies and when you are talking 35 years or so that is nearly half as long as the amstaff has been around and in that long you can breed 20 generations deep so in dog breeding terms it is a long time.

Fighting lines of both exist and they are dual registered and interbred so people who claim they are different need to explain how an AST without papers is automatically an APBT. Whatever way you cut it an APBT and an AST are one and the same. Legally the world includes the SBT in the same fashion. Given that strains of both are also indistinguishable and until the 1970s they were also interbred, especially in the US then they too are also the same breed. The Boston has been bred completely away so is a different breed now, though they can be quite fiesty little beasts.

[kylielou]

I have just gotten of the Phone to Cr Bob La Castra, 10:45 am Sunday

I asked him a simple question regarding the return of the two dogs in the GCCC pound, that his department claimed to be restricted dogs, Pit bull terriers.

Q1, with the announcement from Hon Minister Desley Boyle, stating that the American Staffordshire terrier is not a restricted dog breed, both on the Qld Government web page, Media release, and on Ch 9, 10 and all local news papers, why are you holding Rangi’s dogs?

A, I don’t’ read the news papers, or watch TV…”I Know Nothing”… (Hogan Heroes, Sergeant Shaltz!) and he insisted that knowone tells himanything?

Q2, then do you read the Qld Media released?

A, I will.

Q,3 Your department stated in emails from Cr Dawn, that if the DNA test comes back and there is no Amstaff in her dogs DNA they could go home, with the amendments this is now meaningless.

A, I will have to have a meeting middle of next week to find out anything to do with this.

Q4, With the Hon Minister Desley Boyle, decision, that the Amstaff is not a restricted dog breed and the Chivers Vs GCCC ruling that the Amstaff and the Pit bulls are the same breed, is this now so that there are no restricted Pit bull’s either?

A, I will have to have a meeting middle of next week to find out what we will do.

Q5, why won’t the Animal control department answer Rangis question on notice.

A, ask me I will.

Q6, In the Supreme court Chiver Vs GCCC your Barristers openly admitted that the 22 Point checklist was an invalid and unreliable, method of identification, then why did your officers use this system after the trial to identify Rangi’s two dogs.

A, well its the only method available.

Q7, so you don’t have to abide by a Supreme court ruling?

A, I will have to find out middle of next week when we have a meeting ….

Q7, you were quoted in the news paper, that if the DNA test comes back that the two dogs were not Pit bull terriers, then the family would be compensated for their cost?

A, yes that is true.

Q8, then would Kylie Chivers would also be compensated for the past 7 years two trials and for the work proving every thing over 59 misidentification of other dog that councils have taken unlawfully.?

A, will have to find out middle of next week when we have a meeting ….

I think you as a member of the public should call write and ask this councilor why Rangi’s dogs are still in a pound when the uninformed Councilor has no lawful reason for holding them?

http://www.goldcoast.qld.gov.au/t_standard2.aspx?pid=349

Councillor La Castra can be contacted any time by office phone or mobile. He is available at the Nerang Administration Office by appointment.

Phone: (07) 5582 8206

Mobile: 0414 180 008

Fax: (07) 5596 6010

Edited August 1, 2010 by kylielou

[KJS]

Perhaps they should start thinking about ways to recover some of the costs they will incurr from the inevitable compensation claims.

I suggest selling tickets to this "meeting the middle of next week".

I'd like a front row one please.

I'll bring a bag of popcorn, my Ipod and speakers so I could set some nice background music.

The Benny Hill Show theme song would be appropriate I think.

;)

[chriswiddler]

If the government legislates that ASTs are not PBs then wouldn't this over-ride Qld Common Law that they are? Or does it mean PBs are also ASTs and so no longer restricted? It will probably take another court case to clarify.