Bsl- Why?

[jazawayaya]

I have been reading and investigating this subject a lot lately.

For ages I kind of sat on the fence and tried not to think much about it.

Well a run of really quiet days at work has lead me all over the place on this subject and I must say I am disgusted, disturbed, scared and saddened.

Excuse my ignorance but can someone just tell me WHY?

I mean everything its based on is flawed. Everything they are using and the way they are going about it all is flawed.

Nothing will change in terms of dog bite statistics?

Why are the governments doing this? What have that got to gain? To me it seems they have more to lose?

Is it just the general public's pressure from the sh1t the media spews out at us all that is causing this?

Is it just a way to makes us even more subervant and 'nannied' in this stupid country?

Way to get the dog populations down?

A way to take potential weapons off those degenerates who take these dogs as some kind of sick status symbol?

Please enlighten me!

[GeckoTree]

Why? just to exercise the genetic misprints that they are. Their ancestors probaly threw little girls and old women into ponds to see if they would float back in saylem.

[RottnBullies]

Why are the governments doing this?

Because It makes them feel good killing Innocent dogs, that's all It Is at the end of the

day a mass slaughter of thousands and thousands of dogs who are not guilty of anything other than what breed they were born

and brainwashing society Into thinking It Is now a safer place

[K9Nev]

I have been reading and investigating this subject a lot lately.

For ages I kind of sat on the fence and tried not to think much about it.

Well a run of really quiet days at work has lead me all over the place on this subject and I must say I am disgusted, disturbed, scared and saddened.

Excuse my ignorance but can someone just tell me WHY?

I mean everything its based on is flawed. Everything they are using and the way they are going about it all is flawed.

Nothing will change in terms of dog bite statistics?

Why are the governments doing this? What have that got to gain? To me it seems they have more to lose?

Is it just the general public's pressure from the sh1t the media spews out at us all that is causing this?

Is it just a way to makes us even more subervant and 'nannied' in this stupid country?

Way to get the dog populations down?

A way to take potential weapons off those degenerates who take these dogs as some kind of sick status symbol?

Please enlighten me!

The breeds victim to BSL what I believe is the potential danger that can be caused in the wrong hands, more so than what they have actually done. I would be interested in the views of anyone who has trained Pitbulls in protection work and civil agitation which does provide a clearer understanding why these breeds have been targeted with BSL.

Cheers

Nev

[geo]

I have been reading and investigating this subject a lot lately.

For ages I kind of sat on the fence and tried not to think much about it.

Well a run of really quiet days at work has lead me all over the place on this subject and I must say I am disgusted, disturbed, scared and saddened.

Excuse my ignorance but can someone just tell me WHY?

I mean everything its based on is flawed. Everything they are using and the way they are going about it all is flawed.

Nothing will change in terms of dog bite statistics?

Why are the governments doing this? What have that got to gain? To me it seems they have more to lose?

Is it just the general public's pressure from the sh1t the media spews out at us all that is causing this?

Is it just a way to makes us even more subervant and 'nannied' in this stupid country?

Way to get the dog populations down?

A way to take potential weapons off those degenerates who take these dogs as some kind of sick status symbol?

Please enlighten me!

The breeds victim to BSL what I believe is the potential danger that can be caused in the wrong hands, more so than what they have actually done. I would be interested in the views of anyone who has trained Pitbulls in protection work and civil agitation which does provide a clearer understanding why these breeds have been targeted with BSL.

Cheers

Nev

They've been targeted because of the media and politicians, they really suited the label that the media portrayed and joe public just lapped it up. regardless of how they can be trained, even SWF's would love to do protection work but sadly they just aren't big enough!!. They certainly haven't been targeted because they excel at any sort of dog sport, protection etc..

Dog fighting and it's losers helped put BSL in place, now it's up to all the good dog owners to put a stop to it.

[poodlefan]

Why?

Ignorance and fear among the general public wrt dog attacks

Irresponsiblity by certain dog owners

A desire for a knee jerk quick fix by politicians.

Add a media frenzy that sees a "pitbull attack" as selling as many newspapers as a shark attack and you've got the answer.

[Dame Aussie]

Why?

Ignorance and fear among the general public wrt dog attacks

Irresponsiblity by certain dog owners

A desire for a knee jerk quick fix by politicians.

Add a media frenzy that sees a "pitbull attack" as selling as many newspapers as a shark attack and you've got the answer.

Exactly.

[K9Nev]

I have been reading and investigating this subject a lot lately.

For ages I kind of sat on the fence and tried not to think much about it.

Well a run of really quiet days at work has lead me all over the place on this subject and I must say I am disgusted, disturbed, scared and saddened.

Excuse my ignorance but can someone just tell me WHY?

I mean everything its based on is flawed. Everything they are using and the way they are going about it all is flawed.

Nothing will change in terms of dog bite statistics?

Why are the governments doing this? What have that got to gain? To me it seems they have more to lose?

Is it just the general public's pressure from the sh1t the media spews out at us all that is causing this?

Is it just a way to makes us even more subervant and 'nannied' in this stupid country?

Way to get the dog populations down?

A way to take potential weapons off those degenerates who take these dogs as some kind of sick status symbol?

Please enlighten me!

The breeds victim to BSL what I believe is the potential danger that can be caused in the wrong hands, more so than what they have actually done. I would be interested in the views of anyone who has trained Pitbulls in protection work and civil agitation which does provide a clearer understanding why these breeds have been targeted with BSL.

Cheers

Nev

They've been targeted because of the media and politicians, they really suited the label that the media portrayed and joe public just lapped it up. regardless of how they can be trained, even SWF's would love to do protection work but sadly they just aren't big enough!!. They certainly haven't been targeted because they excel at any sort of dog sport, protection etc..

Dog fighting and it's losers helped put BSL in place, now it's up to all the good dog owners to put a stop to it.

Unless you have actually experienced the fighting potential of a good Pitbull by training them to such a level to extract their ability, people raising and keeping a Pitbull as a family pet and promoting the breed on those qualities seen really need to see the other side of the breed then perhaps they would understand why the breed is subject to BSL.

The Pitbull is an amazing breed and is truly the toughest, hardest of K9 fighting machines with the highest pain threshhold I have ever seen. Raised and trained as a family pet by responsible owners, the breed is as safe and reliable as any other breed, but train them in suspicion and civil agitation and teach them to bite properly, they make GSD's and Rottweilers look like pussy cats in comparison along with the fact that in full fighting drive from a handler perpsective, they are virtually uncontrollable.

I agree that the fools who try to use the Pitbull as a personal protection dog are largely responsible for bringing the breed under the spotlight, but having said that, a dog with the genetic potential to be trained in aggression to outstrip the guardian breeds in sheer power, fighting drive and stamina without the clear headedness to be handler controllable, there is little option in regard to community safety other than to seriously look at dog breeds that posess this potential.

Cheers

Nev.

[Crisovar]

The Fwits that make our laws have no knowledge or understanding of dog training or dog sports, they ban breeds through ignorance and fear it is as simple as that.

[geo]

Unless you have actually experienced the fighting potential of a good Pitbull by training them to such a level to extract their ability, people raising and keeping a Pitbull as a family pet and promoting the breed on those qualities seen really need to see the other side of the breed then perhaps they would understand why the breed is subject to BSL.

The Pitbull is an amazing breed and is truly the toughest, hardest of K9 fighting machines with the highest pain threshhold I have ever seen. Raised and trained as a family pet by responsible owners, the breed is as safe and reliable as any other breed, but train them in suspicion and civil agitation and teach them to bite properly, they make GSD's and Rottweilers look like pussy cats in comparison along with the fact that in full fighting drive from a handler perpsective, they are virtually uncontrollable.

I agree that the fools who try to use the Pitbull as a personal protection dog are largely responsible for bringing the breed under the spotlight, but having said that, a dog with the genetic potential to be trained in aggression to outstrip the guardian breeds in sheer power, fighting drive and stamina without the clear headedness to be handler controllable, there is little option in regard to community safety other than to seriously look at dog breeds that posess this potential.

Cheers

Nev.

I sort of agree, but the majority of pitbulls aren't conditioned or trained to that extent, and i'd bet money that any pits that have made headlines certainly aren't the ones that have been trained to fight etc.. They're normally your average mistreated family pet.

[Robbi]

"Unless you have actually experienced the fighting potential of a good Pitbull by training them to such a level to extract their ability, people raising and keeping a Pitbull as a family pet and promoting the breed on those qualities seen really need to see the other side of the breed then perhaps they would understand why the breed is subject to BSL."

I dont want to see any dog being taught to fight Any dog can be ill treated and abused until its only defence is aggression.

Pit Bulls have many talents that dont include aggression lets focus on those not the macho bullsh@t that has caused the misconceptions in the first place. Pit Bulls excel as therapy dogs ,service dogs, agility and dock dogs and have been trained as successful search and rescue dogs. To quote Cesar Milan" you dont give somebody who cant drive a car a Ferrari". If you dont want to socialise and train your dog dont get a dog especially not a Pit Bull.

I will continue to defend the Pit Bull and all dogs against public ignorance and media bias but I dont need to see a Pit Bull fight to see the other side of them BTW Dog fights are illegal and monstrous acts of barbarianism I find this quote very upsetting k9Nev

[K9Nev]

Unless you have actually experienced the fighting potential of a good Pitbull by training them to such a level to extract their ability, people raising and keeping a Pitbull as a family pet and promoting the breed on those qualities seen really need to see the other side of the breed then perhaps they would understand why the breed is subject to BSL.

The Pitbull is an amazing breed and is truly the toughest, hardest of K9 fighting machines with the highest pain threshhold I have ever seen. Raised and trained as a family pet by responsible owners, the breed is as safe and reliable as any other breed, but train them in suspicion and civil agitation and teach them to bite properly, they make GSD's and Rottweilers look like pussy cats in comparison along with the fact that in full fighting drive from a handler perpsective, they are virtually uncontrollable.

I agree that the fools who try to use the Pitbull as a personal protection dog are largely responsible for bringing the breed under the spotlight, but having said that, a dog with the genetic potential to be trained in aggression to outstrip the guardian breeds in sheer power, fighting drive and stamina without the clear headedness to be handler controllable, there is little option in regard to community safety other than to seriously look at dog breeds that posess this potential.

Cheers

Nev.

I sort of agree, but the majority of pitbulls aren't conditioned or trained to that extent, and i'd bet money that any pits that have made headlines certainly aren't the ones that have been trained to fight etc.. They're normally your average mistreated family pet.

I don't think too many genuine Pitbulls have ever been proven to feature in the bite statistics, but the "potential" of different breeds fighting characteristics is what the governments latch onto. It's like the Schutzhund trained dogs being considered dangerous..........likewise, we don't know of any Schutzhund titled dogs that have bitten anyone, but the laws again act upon "potential" over fact.

Cheers

Nev

[K9Nev]

"Unless you have actually experienced the fighting potential of a good Pitbull by training them to such a level to extract their ability, people raising and keeping a Pitbull as a family pet and promoting the breed on those qualities seen really need to see the other side of the breed then perhaps they would understand why the breed is subject to BSL."

I dont want to see any dog being taught to fight Any dog can be ill treated and abused until its only defence is aggression.

Pit Bulls have many talents that dont include aggression lets focus on those not the macho bullsh@t that has caused the misconceptions in the first place. Pit Bulls excel as therapy dogs ,service dogs, agility and dock dogs and have been trained as successful search and rescue dogs. To quote Cesar Milan" you dont give somebody who cant drive a car a Ferrari". If you dont want to socialise and train your dog dont get a dog especially not a Pit Bull.

I will continue to defend the Pit Bull and all dogs against public ignorance and media bias but I dont need to see a Pit Bull fight to see the other side of them BTW Dog fights are illegal and monstrous acts of barbarianism I find this quote very upsetting k9Nev

The point I am making Robbi is that many people don't understand where a breeds potential danger is at when part of a community and not everyone will raise these types of dogs to ensure public saftey. It's an illusion to believe that the Pitbull has no more propensity to aggression than any other breed because they do have a far greater ability than most breeds to become dangerous in the wrong hands as they are wired genetically different in their fighting triggers to cause higher levels of injury and destruction.

Dogs attacking under the stress of defence drive fight to eliminate their stress and will retreat once the stress is reduced. Dog's attacking under fighting drive which occurs with the Pitbull and other BSL listed breeds, fight because they enjoy the fighting challenge which is a genetic trait. Guardian breeds like the GSD, Rottweiler, Belgian Shephered, Doberman etc, takes the right dog with intense training to extract half the fighting drive that comes naturally with the BSL breeds is where the issue lays in relation to why some breeds are considered of a more dangerous potential than others.

There are more valid reasons for why some breeds feature under BSL listings than a government's desire to ruin the opportunity of owning your preferred breed and killing peoples pets is what I am referring to.

Cheers

Nev

[bulldogz4eva]

The breeds victim to BSL what I believe is the potential danger that can be caused in the wrong hands, more so than what they have actually done. I would be interested in the views of anyone who has trained Pitbulls in protection work and civil agitation which does provide a clearer understanding why these breeds have been targeted with BSL.

Cheers

Nev

That is part of it,the potential or perceived risk to public safety.Mostly it is driven by the media as the pitbull is a headline grabber.If a labrador bites someone it doesnt gain as much attention and doesnt whip up a frenzy like the word pitbull does.Mention the word pitbull and attack in the same sentence and the average member of the public will be grabbing there pitchfork and a torch and heading for a lynching.Any attack that mentions pitbull in the US will be aired here as if to confirm and bolster their story.The media feed the government machine,they go hand in hand.Ever notice why when bans were mentioned there is always a spate of attacks shortly after reported in the media.

I am not downplaying any potential and I actually am in favor of restrictions but not outright bans.The problem is people in government dont want headlines they want them to go away and the easiest way is to ban something out of existence so it disappears from sight.They wont investigate the facts or find out the truth they just want mum and dads vote at the polling booth and if its an issue for know nothing mum and dad and that may affect the way they vote then they will do something about it.Politicians are not different than the rest of the mindless massess.They believe what they see on the 6 oclock news.What they dont understand is the vast difference between ANIMAL AGRESSION as opposed to HUMAN AGGRESSION.Big difference.

[bulldogz4eva]

Unless you have actually experienced the fighting potential of a good Pitbull by training them to such a level to extract their ability, people raising and keeping a Pitbull as a family pet and promoting the breed on those qualities seen really need to see the other side of the breed then perhaps they would understand why the breed is subject to BSL.

The Pitbull is an amazing breed and is truly the toughest, hardest of K9 fighting machines with the highest pain threshhold I have ever seen. Raised and trained as a family pet by responsible owners, the breed is as safe and reliable as any other breed, but train them in suspicion and civil agitation and teach them to bite properly, they make GSD's and Rottweilers look like pussy cats in comparison along with the fact that in full fighting drive from a handler perpsective, they are virtually uncontrollable.

I agree that the fools who try to use the Pitbull as a personal protection dog are largely responsible for bringing the breed under the spotlight, but having said that, a dog with the genetic potential to be trained in aggression to outstrip the guardian breeds in sheer power, fighting drive and stamina without the clear headedness to be handler controllable, there is little option in regard to community safety other than to seriously look at dog breeds that posess this potential.

Cheers

Nev.

I have raised and trained them for a long time until now but those days are coming to an end.When you say train to extract that potential my understanding is you mean in bitework?I have and I understand full well what you mean but I tend to disagree with some of your comments.

Yes.They are the hardest,toughest canine with the highest pain thresholds around but not every individual within the breed is going to be just that.Yes,raised and trained as a family pet they make great family dogs but you arent talking about the same thing.The dog that will excel at protection and has what trainers would call high 'fight drive' is not the dog that is suitable for a pet home and this would become quite clear very early in the dogs life.Just the same as a GSD or Rott or fill in the blanks from working lines.

Your mention of training them in suspicion and civil agitation is relevant but not 100% factual.There are many pitbulls that are natural guard dogs and already have a level of natural suspicion and dominant individuals dont need to be taught how to bite.They will bite with a full mouth without any training.You see I have owned many and I am not one of these people that think the pitbull cant or shouldnt be trained in personal protection.Yes there are risks involved as with the training of any dog.Its all about the individual dog being suitable for the work and some arent.The dog that cant be turned off or controlled by a good handler is not the dog to train.There are many so called dog men that believe it is wrong to train them in PP but mostly that is because they never have and dont have an understanding of it or are just regurgitating what they have heard from someone else.

I dont beleive that people attempting to use them as pp dogs are solely responsible for bringing the dog under the spotlight although this may be the case in the US and the publics perception here.On the whole they dont make the best guard dogs and most game bred dogs are people fiendly and not interested in biting anyone.Also the difference in a sport type dog and a real protection dog are differnt.My last bitch I could put her on a sleeve and she looked good very high prey drive but little defense in regard to people although very socially dominant with other dogs.The problem is there is always the 10%.The extremely dominant individuals within an already dominant breed.Then the risk matrix increases ten fold becuase of the potential but I still disagree with your comments about controllability.Like I said its all about the individual and you would have to have seen enough of them over a long period of time to make that call.The pitbull is a breed within a breed becuase of its diverse genetic background.This is also a reason why it will never be bred out of existence in this country because that same genetic diversity lends itself to inbreeding without problems for more successive generations than nearly any other breed becuase of heavy culling of weak individuals .I know this from experience.

[Robbi]

There are many things that can be done rather than BSL to help prevent dog attacks but the politicians and media aren't interested, they want to dstroy all Pit Bulls and any dogs unfortunate enough to look like one. I certainly dont want innocent dogs attacked on the street by out of control dogs but I also dont want to see dogs killed due to a backward law that targets dogs by what they look like.

Surely something as simple as a canine good citizen program would be appropriate, if the Pit Bull owner was unwilling to do the right thing by the dog and socialise and train it then heavy penalties would apply but the owner willing to train their dog would be encouraged. This isn't possible at the moment as Pit Bulls often aren't welcome at obediance clubs and many owners are too worried about their dog being wrongly accused of wrong doings to bring them into the public eye.

[bulldogz4eva]

The point I am making Robbi is that many people don't understand where a breeds potential danger is at when part of a community and not everyone will raise these types of dogs to ensure public saftey. It's an illusion to believe that the Pitbull has no more propensity to aggression than any other breed because they do have a far greater ability than most breeds to become dangerous in the wrong hands as they are wired genetically different in their fighting triggers to cause higher levels of injury and destruction.

Dogs attacking under the stress of defence drive fight to eliminate their stress and will retreat once the stress is reduced. Dog's attacking under fighting drive which occurs with the Pitbull and other BSL listed breeds, fight because they enjoy the fighting challenge which is a genetic trait. Guardian breeds like the GSD, Rottweiler, Belgian Shephered, Doberman etc, takes the right dog with intense training to extract half the fighting drive that comes naturally with the BSL breeds is where the issue lays in relation to why some breeds are considered of a more dangerous potential than others.

There are more valid reasons for why some breeds feature under BSL listings than a government's desire to ruin the opportunity of owning your preferred breed and killing peoples pets is what I am referring to.

Cheers

Nev

I agree with you to an extent that some are under the illusion about risks but danger to what is the question you need to ask?Pitbulls in this country are more prone to animal and dog agression than human aggression.The facts are the facts.I am not saying there arent individuals that will be dangerous to humans but that is the same for every breed.On the whole there are as many pitbulls if not more today than there was when bsl was first introduced.Why is there no more attacks?Why is there no fatalities?Understand the dogs and you will know the answer.That arent the monster they are made out to be.It just isnt so.We are lucky in the fact that they were banned from importation so long ago and other lines of 'pitbulls' werent imported here.

As far as dogs attacking under defence drive and and retreating after the stress is reduced I will hazard a guess you havent had much to do with defence based guardian breeds.I wont go into my take on defensive drive and fight drive but to me they are one in the same or caused by the same stimulus in varying degrees dependent on the individual.The more defensive mastiff based dogs wont retreat.There mindset is to drive away the threat using as much force as needed nothing to do with the reduction of stress.When you say other bsl listed breeds you need to understand that of the 5 listed only 3 have a fighting background.the other 2 whilst they may have been fought at some stage are not and have never been fighting dogs and were not bred under a game bred environment.

I do agree with what you ay about guardian breeds and extracting fight drive and this is why some lines of malinois, dutch shepherd and others have had pitbull added and this is fact.It is because of miltary and other trainers seeing the potential and upping the anti in their own dogs.

We could mention many other breeds that are already here that pose the same if not more risk but it serves no purpose and this is a public forum that big brother reads.In essence there is no easy fix for BSL.Emotion always gets involved especially when it involves families loved pet but there are reasons for it and the ireesponsible are too blame.Unfortuantely until the government sees the light and places the onus on the dog onwer regardless of breed it will never change and more dogs will be added to the list.

[geo]

The point I am making Robbi is that many people don't understand where a breeds potential danger is at when part of a community and not everyone will raise these types of dogs to ensure public saftey. It's an illusion to believe that the Pitbull has no more propensity to aggression than any other breed because they do have a far greater ability than most breeds to become dangerous in the wrong hands as they are wired genetically different in their fighting triggers to cause higher levels of injury and destruction.

Dogs attacking under the stress of defence drive fight to eliminate their stress and will retreat once the stress is reduced. Dog's attacking under fighting drive which occurs with the Pitbull and other BSL listed breeds, fight because they enjoy the fighting challenge which is a genetic trait. Guardian breeds like the GSD, Rottweiler, Belgian Shephered, Doberman etc, takes the right dog with intense training to extract half the fighting drive that comes naturally with the BSL breeds is where the issue lays in relation to why some breeds are considered of a more dangerous potential than others.

There are more valid reasons for why some breeds feature under BSL listings than a government's desire to ruin the opportunity of owning your preferred breed and killing peoples pets is what I am referring to.

Cheers

Nev

Nev if all pitbulls were of the old school fighting lines then yep i'd agree, but it just isn't the case. I don't think that there is enough of these types of pits about.

To think that a politician has sat down and thought of the things you've just mentioned is most unlikely, If you look at how the breed has changed over the last 20 years it's massive, all the fighting fairytayles are fading away and good people are owning these dogs.

For the idiots that have them, the risk to the public is no greater should they own any other breed as they're just as likely to treat any other animal the same, as mentioned by someone else there are plenty of other breeds more capable of hurting someone than a pitbull.

I just think we should get away from the extremes of what people perceive a pitbull is capable of because it's not the norm.

[K9Nev]

The point I am making Robbi is that many people don't understand where a breeds potential danger is at when part of a community and not everyone will raise these types of dogs to ensure public saftey. It's an illusion to believe that the Pitbull has no more propensity to aggression than any other breed because they do have a far greater ability than most breeds to become dangerous in the wrong hands as they are wired genetically different in their fighting triggers to cause higher levels of injury and destruction.

Dogs attacking under the stress of defence drive fight to eliminate their stress and will retreat once the stress is reduced. Dog's attacking under fighting drive which occurs with the Pitbull and other BSL listed breeds, fight because they enjoy the fighting challenge which is a genetic trait. Guardian breeds like the GSD, Rottweiler, Belgian Shephered, Doberman etc, takes the right dog with intense training to extract half the fighting drive that comes naturally with the BSL breeds is where the issue lays in relation to why some breeds are considered of a more dangerous potential than others.

There are more valid reasons for why some breeds feature under BSL listings than a government's desire to ruin the opportunity of owning your preferred breed and killing peoples pets is what I am referring to.

Cheers

Nev

I agree with you to an extent that some are under the illusion about risks but danger to what is the question you need to ask?Pitbulls in this country are more prone to animal and dog agression than human aggression.The facts are the facts.I am not saying there arent individuals that will be dangerous to humans but that is the same for every breed.On the whole there are as many pitbulls if not more today than there was when bsl was first introduced.Why is there no more attacks?Why is there no fatalities?Understand the dogs and you will know the answer.That arent the monster they are made out to be.It just isnt so.We are lucky in the fact that they were banned from importation so long ago and other lines of 'pitbulls' werent imported here.

As far as dogs attacking under defence drive and and retreating after the stress is reduced I will hazard a guess you havent had much to do with defence based guardian breeds.I wont go into my take on defensive drive and fight drive but to me they are one in the same or caused by the same stimulus in varying degrees dependent on the individual.The more defensive mastiff based dogs wont retreat.There mindset is to drive away the threat using as much force as needed nothing to do with the reduction of stress.When you say other bsl listed breeds you need to understand that of the 5 listed only 3 have a fighting background.the other 2 whilst they may have been fought at some stage are not and have never been fighting dogs and were not bred under a game bred environment.

I do agree with what you ay about guardian breeds and extracting fight drive and this is why some lines of malinois, dutch shepherd and others have had pitbull added and this is fact.It is because of miltary and other trainers seeing the potential and upping the anti in their own dogs.

We could mention many other breeds that are already here that pose the same if not more risk but it serves no purpose and this is a public forum that big brother reads.In essence there is no easy fix for BSL.Emotion always gets involved especially when it involves families loved pet but there are reasons for it and the ireesponsible are too blame.Unfortuantely until the government sees the light and places the onus on the dog onwer regardless of breed it will never change and more dogs will be added to the list.

Very informative posts Bulldogz4eva, and is nice of you to share your Pitbull experience I have worked with several Pitbulls in protection although the bulk of my experience is with GSD's training and handling police K9 patrol dogs and some sporting work in Schutzhund. Defence drive and fighting drive as I see it are two different things. Defence drive is the physical reaction triggered from civil aggression which has a nerve component where the dog fights under the stress of self preservation or the need to protect. Fighting drive is an extension of prey drive where the dog enjoys the fight free of duress. Defence driven aggression is the common fighting factor in most guardian breeds. Pure fighting drive as I have seen common to the Pitbull occurs to a lesser extent in the guardian breeds although both drive traits have a similar appearance.

Cheers

Nev

[bulldogz4eva]

The point I am making Robbi is that many people don't understand where a breeds potential danger is at when part of a community and not everyone will raise these types of dogs to ensure public saftey. It's an illusion to believe that the Pitbull has no more propensity to aggression than any other breed because they do have a far greater ability than most breeds to become dangerous in the wrong hands as they are wired genetically different in their fighting triggers to cause higher levels of injury and destruction.

Dogs attacking under the stress of defence drive fight to eliminate their stress and will retreat once the stress is reduced. Dog's attacking under fighting drive which occurs with the Pitbull and other BSL listed breeds, fight because they enjoy the fighting challenge which is a genetic trait. Guardian breeds like the GSD, Rottweiler, Belgian Shephered, Doberman etc, takes the right dog with intense training to extract half the fighting drive that comes naturally with the BSL breeds is where the issue lays in relation to why some breeds are considered of a more dangerous potential than others.

There are more valid reasons for why some breeds feature under BSL listings than a government's desire to ruin the opportunity of owning your preferred breed and killing peoples pets is what I am referring to.

Cheers

Nev

I agree with you to an extent that some are under the illusion about risks but danger to what is the question you need to ask?Pitbulls in this country are more prone to animal and dog agression than human aggression.The facts are the facts.I am not saying there arent individuals that will be dangerous to humans but that is the same for every breed.On the whole there are as many pitbulls if not more today than there was when bsl was first introduced.Why is there no more attacks?Why is there no fatalities?Understand the dogs and you will know the answer.That arent the monster they are made out to be.It just isnt so.We are lucky in the fact that they were banned from importation so long ago and other lines of 'pitbulls' werent imported here.

As far as dogs attacking under defence drive and and retreating after the stress is reduced I will hazard a guess you havent had much to do with defence based guardian breeds.I wont go into my take on defensive drive and fight drive but to me they are one in the same or caused by the same stimulus in varying degrees dependent on the individual.The more defensive mastiff based dogs wont retreat.There mindset is to drive away the threat using as much force as needed nothing to do with the reduction of stress.When you say other bsl listed breeds you need to understand that of the 5 listed only 3 have a fighting background.the other 2 whilst they may have been fought at some stage are not and have never been fighting dogs and were not bred under a game bred environment.

I do agree with what you ay about guardian breeds and extracting fight drive and this is why some lines of malinois, dutch shepherd and others have had pitbull added and this is fact.It is because of miltary and other trainers seeing the potential and upping the anti in their own dogs.

We could mention many other breeds that are already here that pose the same if not more risk but it serves no purpose and this is a public forum that big brother reads.In essence there is no easy fix for BSL.Emotion always gets involved especially when it involves families loved pet but there are reasons for it and the ireesponsible are too blame.Unfortuantely until the government sees the light and places the onus on the dog onwer regardless of breed it will never change and more dogs will be added to the list.

Very informative posts Bulldogz4eva, and is nice of you to share your Pitbull experience I have worked with several Pitbulls in protection although the bulk of my experience is with GSD's training and handling police K9 patrol dogs and some sporting work in Schutzhund. Defence drive and fighting drive as I see it are two different things. Defence drive is the physical reaction triggered from civil aggression which has a nerve component where the dog fights under the stress of self preservation or the need to protect. Fighting drive is an extension of prey drive where the dog enjoys the fight free of duress. Defence driven aggression is the common fighting factor in most guardian breeds. Pure fighting drive as I have seen common to the Pitbull occurs to a lesser extent in the guardian breeds although both drive traits have a similar appearance.

Cheers

Nev

Yes.I have heard of defensive drive and fight drive characterised as such.Like active and reactive aggression but I still see it slightly different.I dont see it as prey based although I understand the philosophy of it being free of duress becuase I do beleive some dogs enjoy the 'fight'.Wether that be because of the production of adrenalin or release of endorphins being pleasurable or not.However what stimulates prey drive?A pitbull doesnt see a horse, camel, bull as prey but he will still fight one and if he gets a stomping he will run away most times anyway.

Reactive aggression or defence/self preservation as they put it has fight or flight but what about the rarer mastiff breeds that have been heavily bred on defense as guards.Dogs that have very little flight or avoidance and will engage a threat and fight it to the end.That to me is the link between defense and fight.Most people think pitbull they think terrier and high prey drive but when you have a dog that is balance in each only in huge doses it is harder to tell when it switches and it will fight in either.What you have to understand about the pitbull is it has been genetically engineered for want of a better term by man to be the way it is.They have manipulated the breed to have no fear.When you take away the fear there is no flight there is only fight and thats why people cant understand it being defense based.When you breed off of only the strongest individuals you create stronger nerved dogs and like they say in the movies "The man that has no fear is a dangerous man".To his enemy anyway.To me the social dominance that manifests as dog aggression lies in defense.Wether it be triggered over resources,territory,owner etc.Their threat perception is different becuase they are wired that way and that is why most people do not understand them and what man doesnt understand he must destroy.

I think dogs like this within the breed are hard to find these days.I have had one and wish I still did but the majority of them just want to sit on the lounge and eat chocolate cake and lick kids faces because thats another thing they are good at.Their biggest downfall besides wanker owners is their undying loyalty and eagerness to please .They are one of the most trainable dogs around and lend themselves very well to a myriad of tasks becuase of their drive.Their trainability and will to please is easily exploitable and plyable and in the wrong hands that will always be their downfall.When I did breed them when it was legal and people would call me asking about a guard dog I would tell them to go and buy a rottweiller or a GSD as they are not guard dogs becuase I know all too well what can happen.I urge most people not to train them in civil work mainly becuase if they dont have the knowledge of the breed and arent able to pick whats happening with the dog it can be a mistake.Right dog for the right job.