New Behavioural Issue - Very Old Dog

[Little Gifts]

I am after some genuine advice here on what I should do....

My sister and I have 3 female rescue dogs - almost 16 yo staffy, almost 3 yo staffy and an 8 yo husky/shepherd cross. The old girl has been with me almost 15 years. The younger girl arrived when she was 3 months and the husky x has belonged to my sister for about 5 years but they both only came to live at my house about 2 years ago.

The old girl is social but doesn't like to be fussed over. She has cancer and dementia but is still quite active, playing with me and the young girl every day. She doesn't get too close to the husky x. The young girl is very smoochy and naughty but lots of fun. She does struggle with her position in the pack (fighting with the old girl) and we have had a behvaviouralist in for that reason. The husky x has always been kind of aloof but protective of the humans and the house. She is also protective about her personal space. She does like to play with the young dog but then abruptly stops and goes to be by herself. We call her the fun police because she always seems to tell the other 2 off for playing too rough or are having too much fun. In particular she is a little sharp with the old girl, almost like she is trying to tell her she is useless to the pack now. All our dogs are very routine orientated and my sister and I both feed, exercise and discipline all three the same way.

I discovered my old girl has dementia mainly because she was toileting in the house like she'd just forgotten to take her butt outside. The medication has definately helped in that area. But over the last week I now realise she has been deliberately peeing on the furniture. This morning clinched it for me. For months now I was confident that she was no longer able to get onto the furniture without our help. But this morning I saw her get on the spare lounge in my room all by herself without any problems. I ran over in excitement to notice the little toad squatting down and peeing! Then it dawned on me that the only furniture she pees on is the furniture the husky x likes to sit on. She also pees on my sister's clothes if they are on the floor of her room, but never my clothes on my floor. Houston I think I see a problem.

So, if she is scenting to tell the husky x to back off then how do I handle it given her age and dementia? I actually smacked her in shock this morning and scolded her and she looked at me like "Whatever!". Usually if she does something wrong and I speak to her harshly she gets very upset until I forgive her so this is all very different. And I don't think increasing her toilet breaks is needed since I already have a fairly excessive toileting routine with her now so we can avoid the mishaps indoors. We do monitor the husky x's behaviour with her because it is our job to discipline - not hers, and if she wants to be in their space then she also has to be willing to let them in hers. Do we have to change things so that 'my dogs' stay in their space and 'my sisters dog' stays in hers? That doesn't feel so comfortable to me. The old girl has been around the longest, including in this house and has always been very accomodating of other dogs. This is her first territorial stuff.

Am I reading the situation correctly? Any ideas on how to address it and with which dog/s?

Thank you!

[deerhound owner]

It's possible that what you are describing is another symptom of the dementia. In humans and dogs, dementia causes a reduction in executive function, that is the ability to suppress feelings and behaviours that may not be appropriate. In humans this often manifests as rudeness, people say exactly what pops into their heads eg. "you're fat", instead of thinking a person is fat but then overriding the desire to vocalise the thought because it is not socially appropriate.

when you translate this into dog world it means they tend to revert to behaviours that they had originally learnt were inappropriate such as housesoiling. In dementia dogs, housesoiling is not usually a result of the dog being physically unable to get outside or to remember in time, but rather that they no longer realise that it is an inappropriate behaviour. Reduced executive function tends to cause them to revert back to puppy like behaviours because they represent all the innate behaviours in a dog before we teach them what is and isn't socially appropriate to our lifestyles. Also remember that she does not realise what she is doing is wrong because all of those years of training have essentially been removed in her mind.

Unfortunately I think it will be a management issue on your part as the other problem with dementia is that learning is impaired so you may struggle to remedy this with conventional training. You are right in that more toileting breaks probably won't help as it seems to be a marking behaviour. You may have to be more careful in leaving clothes around and in restricting access to the sofa the other dog lies on (if possible). Maybe even a nappy would make things easier for you all.

Wishing you the best of luck, dementia is a difficult disease to manage and it is heartbreaking to see them decline in this way. If you want any more information feel free to PM me.

Edited July 9, 2010 by deerhound owner

[Little Gifts]

Thank you for that information Deerhound Owner. It makes a lot of sense and I knew someone on DOL would have some good advice.

Before the dementia was diagnosed a couple of months ago we did buy some nappy items so perhaps it is necessary to use a two part approach to the problem now - nappies on when inside the house and a continuation of the supervised toiletting outside. Plus I will restict her access to the furniture she is marking and see what happens from there - she may start trying in other spots I guess. I will also talk to the vet about her medication to see if the dose remains right as it does keep her more alert. Though clothes on the floor is my sister's problem!

[Nekhbet]

the husky x is boss and your old girl is still trying to keep her position. You would have found the fighting due to having an existing leader bitch and introducing a new healthy, dominant bitch to the mix.

She is also protective about her personal space. She does like to play with the young dog but then abruptly stops and goes to be by herself. We call her the fun police because she always seems to tell the other 2 off for playing too rough or are having too much fun. In particular she is a little sharp with the old girl, almost like she is trying to tell her she is useless to the pack now.

In the world of dogs the eldest with so many medical problems is useless to them. In a wild/feral situation the elder one would have been rejected or killed by other younger dogs. Its how dogs are wired to ensure survival. The huski x will break up over excitement as it is intolerable to dogs. Rude dogs get hyperactive, well behaved dogs play nicely. My own bitch does the same, its perfectly normal.

Then it dawned on me that the only furniture she pees on is the furniture the husky x likes to sit on. She also pees on my sister's clothes if they are on the floor of her room, but never my clothes on my floor

your older dog is telling you she is boss over sister and new dog. You need to implement more control.

1) no dogs on any furniture. I would be getting crates and not letting them swap them around. Everyone goes into crate, not sharing furniture. You are giving them a resource to squabble about.

2) start controlling areas. Keep the door shut if you are not in that room. If they cant access they cant mark.

I actually smacked her in shock this morning and scolded her and she looked at me like "Whatever!". Usually if she does something wrong and I speak to her harshly she gets very upset until I forgive her so this is all very different.

again, shows your control is quite low. Why smack an old dog that has trouble walking? You can see that with the introduction of a true challenger your efforts mean very little to the old girl. As for the second sentence - your dog is not a human. They will not sulk because they feel bad like a person would. They show sulking behaviour because they have learned it catches your attention and probably gets them cuddles. If my dogs get told off I dont care what pathetic behaviour they show, you mess up you get corrected, as it is in the dog world.

We do monitor the husky x's behaviour with her because it is our job to discipline - not hers, and if she wants to be in their space then she also has to be willing to let them in hers.

No she doesnt. Not if that is not her personality and position in your dog pack. She can still have her ranking but your word is ultimate. Not every dog will get along with every other dog as bed buddies especially in a house full of females from not so soft breeds. Dogs still have to communicate with each other and they do that through body language. Your discipline is either ill timed, confusing or non existent to the dogs. You need to exercise more control techniques then simple discipline and stop attributing so many human ideals onto your dogs.

[Little Gifts]

Thank you Nekhbet - I do believe in the whole pack position and role thing, which is why we had a behaviouralist in before to explain it and help us treat them more appropriately. We figured the husky x's attitude to the older dog was due to her not being seen as a useful member of the pack anymore. But I wasn't sure how to manage it if the older dog has dementia. You have of course given me a lot more valuable information about pack behaviour to consider and apply. Closing doors - something so simple and not something I even thought of. Seems stupid I know but we've never done it before - we tend to run around putting things out of doggy reach instead. As for crating - our younger rescue was traumatised in a crate as a pup and injured herself as a result so I have been reluctant to force it upon her but I'm guessing that unless they were all crated it might not have the desired affect on the pack as a whole?

[Nekhbet]

work the younger through it, start feeding her in there exclusively, leave door open etc until she's comfortable then slowly start with the door shutting. Dont make a fuss or stand over her expectantly just consider it the new routine and no negotiations.

[corvus]

I wish I'd had DO's rundown when I was going through this with my old dog. I found it especially difficult to cope with because I'm young and couldn't imagine what she was going through, and she wasn't the dog I knew and loved. She was excessively snappy towards my younger dog, lost all patience with puppies, and yes, my attempts to teach her more acceptable behaviour fell flat. All I managed to teach her was that when I came towards her pointing to the door that was bad. She started cringing when she saw me coming, although her eyes weren't good so she was also prone to startling as I would appear out of the gloom to her. She did not "act up" because of any lack of training, discipline, or status concerns. She was just an old, pained, confused dog. I eventually realised my responsibility to her was to give her lots of attention, keep her warm, and try to make her as comfortable and safe as possible. My responsibility to my younger dog was to keep him safe and out of her way as much as I could. I got to know when she'd snap at him and changed the way I did things so those circumstances would not arise anymore. Eventually I sent my younger dog to my parents for a short holiday in my old girl's last week or so.

I think you have to realise that there comes a point where the best you can do for them is try to manage. They don't know what they are doing anymore. My girl had bad hearing and sight as well. She would get "lost" where she would appear to forget where she was and if she wasn't close to any detectable cues to tell her where she was she would just sit there looking more and more frightened. I believe their sense of smell is also adversely affected, is that correct, DO? I'd be calling her from a couple of metres away, waving my arms, stamping my feet, and she wouldn't know I was there until I touched her and then she'd skitter and cower away from me.

[Little Gifts]

Mine also is mostly blind and deaf so every instruction we give her has to be right in front of her knowing she is actually focussed on us first. I also tend to stamp my feet a bit so she knows where I am if I am too far away. The dementia medication has really made a difference too. It's like it connects the information in her brain again so we don't have the vague wandering and standing or getting stuck in places anymore. She's surprisingly active and playful still and I ensure we have a play together every morning as part of her routine because she likes to chase my hands as a game and I figure that is good for her brain and coordination. At night she play fights with the younger girl in the loungeroom too. This is the oldest dog I've ever owned and in a lot of ways it requires the same amount of effort as owning a puppy again! The cycle of life I guess.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

You have my sympathies...dementia is a terrible affliction of aged dogs and people. It's awful to watch the decline as the disease progresses. I understand medications do improve the symptoms considerably which has to be a good thing.

Sending you and your old girl hugs.

[deerhound owner]

I believe their sense of smell is also adversely affected, is that correct, DO?

No studies have been done on olfaction and dementia in dogs yet (i'm working on it ) but in humans there is a well established link. In fact olfactory discrimination (the ability to tell the difference between smells) has been shown to be impaired well before any other clinical signs of dementia appear so it is a good early warning sign, later you lose your sense of smell all together. Without getting too carried away, they have also found that the part of the brain responsible for olfaction in humans is effected early by the build up of the bad protein Beta-amyloid. In dogs you would assume the same olfactory problems would occur but then brain studies have not found any amyloid in the olfactory bulb so who knows. Hopefully one day we will be able to answer this with more certainty but it is quite difficult to test olfactory discrimination in dogs without training them like they do the drug/bomb dogs which in a dog with dementia would be a little difficult!

[Little Gifts]

We seem to have some new behaviours from my old girl this week. I rang the vet about it today but she said not to worry but I'd be interested if anyone else has experienced this?

My old girl Ricky has never been much for patting or scratching, except around the ears until she's had enough. This has been even more so since she has had her tumours. Thurs about dawn she woke me up to go to the toilet. When we got back in bed she didn't want to sleep. She wanted me to rub her under her jammies. All over for about an hour. She was standing and moving around showing me where she wanted a rub. I fell alseep or it may have continued on. Then last night instead of sleeping on the lounge while we watched tv she was crawling all over us for rubs again, and grooming us and the other dogs (the night before she spent quite sometime grooming the sheets while I rubbed her!). During the night we got up to go to the toilet and off she wandered to the most remote part of the garden where she never goes for a long sniff. And her eyesight is poor so normally she doesn't go too far from the outside light. Back to bed and even though she wasn't sleeping she snuggled up right under my arm (which she never does). She moved around the bed quite a bit during the night, sleeping in totally new places. Then today she has had the sniffs - she has been wandering around the house checking out things she has never shown any interest in before.

It is all very wierd to watch and experience! I have a smoochy dog! I have a dog who spends more time awake than asleep! I have a nosy dog! As long as she is happy and healthy I'll go with it, but wonder what other changes I can expect? She turns 16 next week too which we are very excited about!

Over to you again DO.....

[LizT]

It has been my experience that the elderly dog will often be shunned from the pack and even attacked by various members for no apparent reason and then tolerated and even shown affecton too at the next moment.

I think in nature the sick and elderly are driven out to die but in the confused/artificial state domestic dogs live in they are not often consistent in their behaviour. I have often had to isolate the older dog for their own safety until such time as it becomes necessary to make the hard decision regarding their quality of life etc. Most living out their last few months away from the other dogs.

[Jigsaw]

We seem to have some new behaviours from my old girl this week. I rang the vet about it today but she said not to worry but I'd be interested if anyone else has experienced this?

My old girl Ricky has never been much for patting or scratching, except around the ears until she's had enough. This has been even more so since she has had her tumours. Thurs about dawn she woke me up to go to the toilet. When we got back in bed she didn't want to sleep. She wanted me to rub her under her jammies. All over for about an hour. She was standing and moving around showing me where she wanted a rub. I fell alseep or it may have continued on. Then last night instead of sleeping on the lounge while we watched tv she was crawling all over us for rubs again, and grooming us and the other dogs (the night before she spent quite sometime grooming the sheets while I rubbed her!). During the night we got up to go to the toilet and off she wandered to the most remote part of the garden where she never goes for a long sniff. And her eyesight is poor so normally she doesn't go too far from the outside light. Back to bed and even though she wasn't sleeping she snuggled up right under my arm (which she never does). She moved around the bed quite a bit during the night, sleeping in totally new places. Then today she has had the sniffs - she has been wandering around the house checking out things she has never shown any interest in before.

It is all very wierd to watch and experience! I have a smoochy dog! I have a dog who spends more time awake than asleep! I have a nosy dog! As long as she is happy and healthy I'll go with it, but wonder what other changes I can expect? She turns 16 next week too which we are very excited about!

Over to you again DO.....

This sounds very similar to what happened to my old dog with his dementia. He was quite confused and I think was no longer able to distinguish properly between day and night and was up and down during the night and wandered all over the place in the dark with me following to make sure he was OK as he was blind and deaf and becoming incontinent. My nights became increasingly disturbed and I ended up coralling him in a small area in our bedroom for his safety as he bumped into things and he seemed to be driven to just move at times. He continually needed to be reassured where I was and became quite distressed if he could not find me. Unfortunately as it happens he became increasingly frail, losing weight and I had to make the decision to put him to sleep just before he was 16.

With the wanting to be rubbed is it possible that she has some pain? Perhaps it's a personality change brought on by the dementia. It is terribly hard watching them fail and it tears your heart apart.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I've had 3 dogs with dementia, each with different symptoms but with one old girl, I had to take up all the carpets and rugs throughout the house. I've got tiles and it was freezing for 2 years!!

I had this old girl for 4 years before she got dementia and she was fully housetrained, we never had any accidents and then suddenly there was a marked difference in her behaviours including urination on anything on the floor, carpets, rugs, my clothes, towels - you had to be very quick or she'd be in and straight onto the item. She also toileted in the car, no matter where she was put.

If she'd been a large dog, I probably wouldn't have coped as well and I know there are people who would have just euthanased her rather than take up the carpets but I loved her very much and she was still enjoying life.

[Little Gifts]

We mostly have the urinating under control since the advice from nekhbet and DO. We are very careful what furniture she gets on and what she is doing on it. Actually we have restricted all the dogs and everyone is still happy and comfy.

The latest issue is her just being so active and so smoochy. I don't think she has any pain (as Jigsaw suggested). She's just decided sleeping is boring and that she likes being touched all of a sudden. Given she is awake more during the night she is getting off the bed more often (and waking me to get her back on the bed) but she is locked in my room so can't really wander anywhere. I'm going to get another soft dog bed so if she wants to just lay on the floor rather than get on and off the bed she can. I guess I am lucky given some older dogs can get snappy - mines going the exact opposite!

[Little Gifts]

I'm really struggling with my old girl again. I am getting so little sleep I am like a walking zombie. She is not sleeping much at night anymore and since she sleeps on the bed I wake up constantly to her either wandering around the bed, licking me or the sheets, her scratching at the bedding, just standing on the bed next to me, getting off the bed and piddling on the floor (and licking it up) then crying to get back on the bed. Also she regularly wants to a drink and a toilet break a minimum of 3 times during my 8 hours of sleep even though between her dinner and bed time I practically have to force her to go to the toilet outside (then she will come back in the house and go on the carpet)! My house his smelling like a urinal!

She has only slept on my bed for about the past 5 years and previously slept in the laundry which is quite large and has a half door and 2 big windows (one into the house and one to the outside). So my plan is to make her a very comfy and warm set up back in the laundry and put training pads down on the tiles so if she goes to the toilet it will be ok. She can also drink all she wants and wont need any help getting in and out of her bedding. I might also leave a night light on for her as she can hardly see a thing anymore unless it casts a shadow. I figure I may have to lie with her the first night for a while and maybe the other dog might lie with her too.

Do you think this is a good idea? Do you think she will be ok or will she cry by herself? Given the dementia is this the wrong thing to do or will she get used to it? I feel terrible and sad but I can't keep going without sleep day in and day out and the house can't cope with much more piddle. Has anyone else had to do this?

The other idea I had was to walk her at night but given the darkness that is probably unsafe for her until it is a little lighter after work. Maybe this might tire her out physically a little?

[corvus]

Have you had a good chat to your vet about it? There is some medication available that helps them with their incontinence. We used it with my old girl. Or you could consider panties, like the ones bitches in heat wear? How is she with regulating her temperature? Towards the end, my girl got cold very, very easily. I had her tucked into blankets with a hot wheat pack all the time or she'd be shivering. I'd be a bit worried about the laundry being too cold? I understand it's very difficult and emotionally and physically exhausting. Would she be able to cope being crated overnight?

[Little Gifts]

I have asked aboyut meds for incontinence but she has other health probs (cancer and pancreatitis) so the vet wasn't keen on the idea. She's also on meds for the dementia and she had to have a kidney test for that. Apparently she is just forgetting about her toilet training and is not so much incontinent. Normally she would hold it till morning but with the dementia she just feels like a pee and does a pee!

I thought of doggy pants but sometimes it is poos as well as wees during the night and that seems yucky for her to sleep in. Plus she might wee 3 times a night and that is a lot of wee to contain in one pad! I'm not keen on crating her as she has never been a crate dog and that seems like punishing her and would contain her with her wee and poo as well.

Our laundry is connected to the kitchen (by the half door) and lounge room (by open internal window). The other laundry door leads to the hallway and is right across from my bedroom. She is having trouble keeping weight on so does get cold but we are in QLD and it is quite moderate now. Because the laundry is quite large but not fully enclosed it doesn't get too hot or too cold so I feel confident she wouldn't be uncomfortable in there and I can put down heaps of bedding so she isn't confined to a small corner.

It's still hard to think of doing and I do appreciate any other suggestions in case I haven't already weighed them up.