Is It Possible For Dogs Temperment To Change This Much?

[ash&elar]

he wouldn't have been put down the next day, he would have been given three or so days in the quarantine area (where they can't get out for walks because, well-quarantine!) and the reality is that they have very good ppl working with these dogs, they are used to having trained and (worse) untrained siezed guard-dogs in their care.

souff is right. these people offloaded a dog that may have been lovely in his secure environment with ppl he knew. in a shelter it is different. it is also very hard to find homes for big, adult, DA males so they had the choice to work with him for a few weeks, one on one, before trying him again in a temp test or putting him down when they realised it wasn't viable and minimising the stress on the dog. they have a whole lot of dogs to rehome and i guarantee that NO-ONE at the rspca like putting down a dog, nor do they look at a bull breed type and say, oh well his life isn't worth much. not all the rspca are hugh wirth. we do get paid either way erny but there are realities to face, no matter how much we care.

perhaps she should have taken the dog to a no kill shelter such as aaps or save-a-dog, they would have had the time to spend with him, working through any problems. can i also say that the rspca get a whole lot of ppl surrendering animals saying that the animal bit another animal or a child. the receptionest tells them rehoming is unlikely and they hand the dog over anyway-or worse try and explain away what the dog did and that he'd be fine in another family home.

sadly it doesn't matter now as it is a moot point

He was def put down within 24hrs for growling at the staff and vet when they were trying to do a health check (i asked to make sure, but this is just what the owners were told which was repeated from its original source).

You say offloaded, they were trying to do the right thing by the dog the husband was diagnosed with cancer and the wife was nursing him they had to move into a block of units with no room not to mention no time to give the dog quality of life.

Because the rspca is the only shelter they were aware of, i myself did not know of the no kill shelters untill i started working at one.

But i do realise that there are way more animals who need adoption than ppl coming in to adopt them.

My thing was he was not given more than 24hrs that seems a lil harsh.

Sorry, but I would have put him down too, a 50kg dog growling at handlers is not on and a risk to rehome, why should they put theirs and the publics safety at risk? The dog may well have been fine outside of a shelter environment but that is where he was put and unfortunately he is the one that paid the ultimate price. When you handover a dog you are effectively signing over all responsibility to that animal and they would have been informed at the time there was a chance he may not have been rehomed, yet he was left there anyway.

I am very sorry for your friends situation and illness, truly I am, but that doesn't lessen their responsibilty to their pet.

But a 2 to 10kg dog being not so dangerous because of size alone would of been a dif story? I can understand this to a point but i still do not think it is right.

[casowner]

This has got nothing to do with size, but anyone with any common sense would know the difference in damage that a 50kg dog compared to a 2kg dog can do. Comments like that really are not necessary as you asked the opinion about a young 50kg Mastiff type cross that can be dog aggro, you have said the dog was handed over and put to sleep for growling. I personally think that was an acceptable decision to make in a SHELTER situation, based on what you yourself have written. I have bought a much bigger young mastiff cross from a shelter and he showed no signs of aggression in the shelter or at home which is why he was deemed acceptable to rehome, I am sorry again for your friends but again the responsibility lies with them leaving the dog there

[ash&elar]

This has got nothing to do with size, but anyone with any common sense would know the difference in damage that a 50kg dog compared to a 2kg dog can do. Comments like that really are not necessary as you asked the opinion about a young 50kg Mastiff type cross that can be dog aggro, you have said the dog was handed over and put to sleep for growling. I personally think that was an acceptable decision to make in a SHELTER situation, based on what you yourself have written. I have bought a much bigger young mastiff cross from a shelter and he showed no signs of aggression in the shelter or at home which is why he was deemed acceptable to rehome, I am sorry again for your friends but again the responsibility lies with them leaving the dog there

I said i understood but did not think it is right, esp if the dog was not there for 24hrs but as ppl have pointed out it isnt a perfect world, i do not mean to sound as though the shelter is doing the wrong thing im sure they do the best they can i wish that large dogs got the same chances as small dogs.

[casowner]

I am not trying to be critical of you, I am sure with experience you will see that while it is not a fair world, sometimes there has to be hard decisions made. Having worked in a shelter, the reality is the bigger dogs don't get the same opportunities WHY- because they are not as rehomeable as the little cute ones, they can inflict more damage, they are simply not as wanted. Is this fair - no but it is reality. That is why people who buy large breed crosses need to understand the old adage that A pet is for life because even though that is so true it can be changed to A pet is for life, except if your cute and small you may get a second chance. I have grown up with giant breeds my entire life and there is no way in hell I would ever take one to a shelter as I know the risks. I also own my first small dog, courtesy of the shelter I worked at but again a shelter situation is no place for any animal. I also know first hand the immediate temperament changes in my old dog when I took him to work for the day, he went from the most gentle loving dog in the world to this protective, cage biting demon dog that had "Be Careful" signs on his pen and a padlock.

All I am saying is that if they couldn't find him a suitable home themselves, which you said they tried to then you have to accept the end result and again they would have known the possibilty of that end result before they signed the paperwork and walked away.

[mackiemad]

He was def put down within 24hrs for growling at the staff and vet when they were trying to do a health check (i asked to make sure, but this is just what the owners were told which was repeated from its original source).

You say offloaded, they were trying to do the right thing by the dog the husband was diagnosed with cancer and the wife was nursing him they had to move into a block of units with no room not to mention no time to give the dog quality of life.

Because the rspca is the only shelter they were aware of, i myself did not know of the no kill shelters untill i started working at one.

But i do realise that there are way more animals who need adoption than ppl coming in to adopt them.

My thing was he was not given more than 24hrs that seems a lil harsh.

perhaps this is a bit controverisal but yes i do think they offloaded him. they took him to a pound (that is really what the rspca is, not so much a shelter as a pound) where they do put animals to sleep-i think every person involved with animals is probably aware of this fact, if they don't i think ignorance is no excuse for responsibility. is it an absolute bummer that your friends were sick and couldn't keep their dog, yes of course. does that absolve them of the responsibility of putting their dog in the best situation, no. they could not care for a large breed, DA dog anymore, and handed it over to a pound as their responsibility. handing a DA, probably insecure (that's what it sounds liek to me form the limited info) dog to a kill shelter is certainly offloading a problem dog. they could not care for him so they offloaded him. a google search for rehoming, adoption or animal shelters in melbourne or vic would have taken a few minutes and given many options to the owners and the animals if they were very serious about finding their DA dog a new home. they amde the decision to hand him over to a kill shelter and would probably have been made aware, when they mentioned his DA that euth was a very real possibility, they still handed him over- so yes they were in a carp situation but yes i believe they offloaded the dog.

the vets at the rspca are pretty used to all sorts of animals and it would had to be a pretty serious 'growl' at the vet for the decision to be made to euth before the bahviour assessment. these are vets that avoid putting down animals willy nilly until a serious behaviour assesment has been done. if you think that the vets are blase about taking an animal's life i guarantee you it is because you have not been in the euth room before. it is an awful job and everyone hates it and feels it, even after working there are going through it many times (i still think he, as is normal practise for the rspca, would have been given more than 24 hrs but you seem certain that this was the case).

so, was it 'harsh' that they put it down without giving it a week of uncertainty, no exercise and a very strange and unsettling environment? no, it must have shown real signs of aggression. was it their responsibilty to rehome and rehabilitate this dog? no, it was their job to decide the best option for themselves, society and the dog at the time- the responsibilty, IMHO, remains with the owners. googling is not hard and does not take long, they did not make serious efforts to ensure this dog had every available opportunity for another family and a good life. hate me if you wish but i will not change my mind on that.

[dancinbcs]

Well said Souff.

The reality is that dogs like that have almost no chance of being re-homed. There is simply no demand for them and if owners surrender them to a shelter there is a very high chance that they will be pts the same day. The shelter staff have to make many tough decisions and the only large crossbreds that are likely to find a home are those with perfect temperaments and behaviour. Being in a shelter can definitely freak some dogs out so temperament is very hard to assess in that environment.

As the op said "they tried to rehome him themselves but no one was interested". The huge majority of people looking for a second hand crossbred dog want a little dog or something like a spaniel or lab cross. Happy, friendly, well socialised, non aggressive dogs, small to medium size are what most people are looking for.

It is also a numbers game. When I worked for a shelter the most numerous surrenders at that time were cattle, shepherd and bull terrier crosses. You might realistically have a chance of homing one of each of those crosses in a week. The problem was that you would have 10 or more of each surrendered each week. So the lucky few would be chosen to go up for adoption and all the others had to be pts.

Nearly all the little dogs were rehomed very quickly as were the very few purebreds that came in.

Most people live in a fantasy land where they believe that there are good homes waiting for the dogs they no longer want. Sadly, it is just a fantasy.

If you cannot keep a dog you should find it a new home or stay with it as it is pts, not surrender it to a shelter where it will be scared in it's final days or hours. Shelters should really be for true emergencies where an owner becomes ill, or dies and there is no one to take or make arrangements for the dog. Owners need to think very carefully before they get a dog and work out what will happen in the event that they cannot keep it. They need to be realistic about how "appealing" their dog is likely to be to others if it needs to be re-homed. If the dog is not the appealing type then they have to know that if they cannot keep it then the alternative is to have it pts.

Sorry but i dont agree with this, i believe MOST dogs deserve a second chance and even a third or fourth esp when their rehoming is of no fault of their own, the way i read this is you are saying it is better to take a dog into your vets and have it pts than take it to a shelter where it could be rehomed? even if the chances are slim i would hope ppl would make the shelter choice.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Unless the dog has a perfect temperament, is appealing, and therefore highly likely to find a new home, the owners should take responsibility and have the dog pts themselves rather than put it in a shelter where the staff will have to do just that. If that was the only option maybe people would think more before taking on a dog that doesn't suit them or not socialising their dog properly. As has already been pointed out the chances of a large crossbreed being rehomed is just about nil so why would you put one in a shelter? The reality is MOST dogs in this category will not be wanted by anyone else.

I feel sorry for the owners in this case for having to get rid of the dog due to illness but when you take on that sort of dog you need to be prepared for the fact that if you cannot keep it for any reason it will probably end up having to be euthanased. Unless you have a back-up plan in case of something like this happening, you don't get a dog in the first place. This is a very strong point in favour of always buying a purebred dog from a reputable breeder, who will take the dog back if necessary. Purebreds of any size also have a much better chance of finding a new home unless they are really old. With old dogs I really do think it is kinder to pts rather than put them in a shelter, because they are not going to find homes either.

[ash&elar]

I am not trying to be critical of you, I am sure with experience you will see that while it is not a fair world, sometimes there has to be hard decisions made. Having worked in a shelter, the reality is the bigger dogs don't get the same opportunities WHY- because they are not as rehomeable as the little cute ones, they can inflict more damage, they are simply not as wanted. Is this fair - no but it is reality. That is why people who buy large breed crosses need to understand the old adage that A pet is for life because even though that is so true it can be changed to A pet is for life, except if your cute and small you may get a second chance. I have grown up with giant breeds my entire life and there is no way in hell I would ever take one to a shelter as I know the risks. I also own my first small dog, courtesy of the shelter I worked at but again a shelter situation is no place for any animal. I also know first hand the immediate temperament changes in my old dog when I took him to work for the day, he went from the most gentle loving dog in the world to this protective, cage biting demon dog that had "Be Careful" signs on his pen and a padlock.

All I am saying is that if they couldn't find him a suitable home themselves, which you said they tried to then you have to accept the end result and again they would have known the possibilty of that end result before they signed the paperwork and walked away.

yeah ok i agree with that.

[karly101]

A shelter is NOT a nice place for dogs.. it's no surprise he was not his normal self.

And no why keep a dog who is aggressive who has been surrendered (there's no second chance, surrendering means signing the dog over) for more than 24hours ...in their eyes its unsafe for staff - and when there are so many more 'adoptable' dogs that they could accept and fill up that pen.

Its a hard reality. The should have rehomed him privately, surrendering to a shelter which does PTS and is brimming with dogs means you have to accept that its most likely the dog will be put to sleep. Perhaps part of the problem is RSPCA does promote a very fluffy image.. they should show the public more the reality of shelters - who can't handle the influx of animals from people who change their mind, can't be bothered, or who do have a change of circumstances.

[ash&elar]

I wouldn't be too quick to listen to what these people say about the dog they surrendered, the only reason they would have made an enquiry was to lessen any feelings of guilt. That didn't work, so I am not surprised they are now questioning the RSPCA testing.

You say you work in a shelter that does not pts. Do they accept all surrenders, including large cross breeds like this one? If the dogs are not adopted, what is done by the shelter to help them be adopted? Where are they moved to if not adopted?

A shelter like the RSPCA doesn't have a choice like some shelters do, if there are too many animals that turn up at the door, some will have to be put to sleep.

The shelter i work at is also the local pound, the take in any surrendered cats or dogs, also the pound animals if they are not collected after 8 days. If they arnt adopted here, they get sent up to a shelter at coldstream.

[dancinbcs]

A shelter is NOT a nice place for dogs.. it's no surprise he was not his normal self.

And no why keep a dog who is aggressive who has been surrendered (there's no second chance, surrendering means signing the dog over) for more than 24hours ...in their eyes its unsafe for staff - and when there are so many more 'adoptable' dogs that they could accept and fill up that pen.

Its a hard reality. The should have rehomed him privately, surrendering to a shelter which does PTS and is brimming with dogs means you have to accept that its most likely the dog will be put to sleep. Perhaps part of the problem is RSPCA does promote a very fluffy image.. they should show the public more the reality of shelters - who can't handle the influx of animals from people who change their mind, can't be bothered, or who do have a change of circumstances.

The shelters need to be more upfront and tell the people surrendering the dog if it will most likely or definitely be euthanased. The one I worked for didn't but when I took the job on reception, I told the owners the truth. The boss (that I detested) couldn't see the point in telling them, but even though it didn't make much difference at the time I hoped at least some of them would think before they got another dog. It did constantly amaze me that people could be told "all we can do is put the dog down this afternoon" and they would say ok and sign the papers with no hesitation and not even seem the slightest bit upset.

I also told people that rang for us to take litters of puppies, if the puppies would be homed or pts. Anything under 8 weeks was pts and we only ever kept one litter at a time of med-large puppies, so if any others came in they would also be pts the same day.

The saddest case was a woman on a pension who took in a pregnant stray cattle cross and didn't know she could have her speyed while pregnant. The bitch had 10 puppies by c-section and the stupid vet never even suggested that they should not revive the puppies. No he worked hard and revived them all. The bitch was very ill and had no milk so this poor good samaritan, tube fed round the clock, got them weaned and finally when they were 5 weeks old she ran out of money to feed them. She had no homes lined up and rang to see if we could take the litter. I told her firstly that we were full and the shelter policy was that puppies had to be 8 weeks so they were ready to desex and home, but even then I couldn't guarantee that they would not be pts. She intended to keep the mother dog and have her desexed but I have no idea what she ended up doing with the babies as she never came in with them. She was going to try to borrow some more money from family because she couldn't handle having the puppies pts after all she had put in to raise them. Most shelters are just not set up for puppy rearing so they are not the answer for an unwanted litter that should never have been born.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Sorry but i dont agree with this, i believe MOST dogs deserve a second chance and even a third or fourth esp when their rehoming is of no fault of their own, the way i read this is you are saying it is better to take a dog into your vets and have it pts than take it to a shelter where it could be rehomed? even if the chances are slim i would hope ppl would make the shelter choice.

Without taking away from the great work people do at shelters and pounds, they are not nice places to be. If it is almost certain a dog will be put down I think it is kinder not to put him through 24-48 hours of fear and separation from his family before he is put down. That goes double if the dog has already been through rehomes a third or fourth time.

[ash&elar]

Thank you for all the replies, i do respect everyones opinions and take on board what you have all said.

[Staranais]

Sorry but i dont agree with this, i believe MOST dogs deserve a second chance and even a third or fourth esp when their rehoming is of no fault of their own, the way i read this is you are saying it is better to take a dog into your vets and have it pts than take it to a shelter where it could be rehomed? even if the chances are slim i would hope ppl would make the shelter choice.

Without taking away from the great work people do at shelters and pounds, they are not nice places to be. If it is almost certain a dog will be put down I think it is kinder not to put him through 24-48 hours of fear and separation from his family before he is put down. That goes double if the dog has already been through rehomes a third or fourth time.

Yes. I know vet students who are currently doing their final year rotation at the local pound, and they say that PTS day is really horrible. Lots of sweet natured dogs getting PTS, and most of them large pitbull/staffy/mastiff type breeds, simply because noone wants them. It doesn't make your day giving the needle to a dog that's wagging his tail furiously, and it does make you cranky at the owners who have passed the buck.

The chances of a large, dog aggressive, male pitbull/staffy/mastiff finding a good home at the SPCA are minimal. If the owner really can't keep this type of dog long enough to find it a good home by themselves, it's often kinder to PTS. At least the dog gets PTS in the arms of its owner, rather that surrounded by complete strangers.

Perhaps DancinBCs is right, and shelters need to be more upfront about the likely fate of their pet when they are talking to owners. Although I suspect some owners just don't want to hear it.

[ash&elar]

A shelter is NOT a nice place for dogs.. it's no surprise he was not his normal self.

And no why keep a dog who is aggressive who has been surrendered (there's no second chance, surrendering means signing the dog over) for more than 24hours ...in their eyes its unsafe for staff - and when there are so many more 'adoptable' dogs that they could accept and fill up that pen.

Its a hard reality. The should have rehomed him privately, surrendering to a shelter which does PTS and is brimming with dogs means you have to accept that its most likely the dog will be put to sleep. Perhaps part of the problem is RSPCA does promote a very fluffy image.. they should show the public more the reality of shelters - who can't handle the influx of animals from people who change their mind, can't be bothered, or who do have a change of circumstances.

The shelters need to be more upfront and tell the people surrendering the dog if it will most likely or definitely be euthanased. The one I worked for didn't but when I took the job on reception, I told the owners the truth. The boss (that I detested) couldn't see the point in telling them, but even though it didn't make much difference at the time I hoped at least some of them would think before they got another dog. It did constantly amaze me that people could be told "all we can do is put the dog down this afternoon" and they would say ok and sign the papers with no hesitation and not even seem the slightest bit upset.

I also told people that rang for us to take litters of puppies, if the puppies would be homed or pts. Anything under 8 weeks was pts and we only ever kept one litter at a time of med-large puppies, so if any others came in they would also be pts the same day.

The saddest case was a woman on a pension who took in a pregnant stray cattle cross and didn't know she could have her speyed while pregnant. The bitch had 10 puppies by c-section and the stupid vet never even suggested that they should not revive the puppies. No he worked hard and revived them all. The bitch was very ill and had no milk so this poor good samaritan, tube fed round the clock, got them weaned and finally when they were 5 weeks old she ran out of money to feed them. She had no homes lined up and rang to see if we could take the litter. I told her firstly that we were full and the shelter policy was that puppies had to be 8 weeks so they were ready to desex and home, but even then I couldn't guarantee that they would not be pts. She intended to keep the mother dog and have her desexed but I have no idea what she ended up doing with the babies as she never came in with them. She was going to try to borrow some more money from family because she couldn't handle having the puppies pts after all she had put in to raise them. Most shelters are just not set up for puppy rearing so they are not the answer for an unwanted litter that should never have been born.

That is a sad story! and i did not know that about the shelters thanks for sharing and i think your idea of being upfront about the animals futures, i did not realise that most are pts so quickly, like i said the shelter i work at takes in all of the cats and dogs and tries to rehome them but this is a new shelter under new management it was originally just the pound, now we have two isle with enough room for i think about 50dogs and i think about 30 cats (including the pound animals) the animals are here for a while then if not adopted moved to coldstream.... coldstream might not be a no kill shelter i am new to this so not sure on all the facts and they have not had in an aggressive dog since i was there (just a biting pound cat :D )

[Souff]

Sorry but i dont agree with this, i believe MOST dogs deserve a second chance and even a third or fourth esp when their rehoming is of no fault of their own, the way i read this is you are saying it is better to take a dog into your vets and have it pts than take it to a shelter where it could be rehomed? even if the chances are slim i would hope ppl would make the shelter choice.

Whoa!!!!! :D

Have you ever heard of the emotional damage that is done to foster children who are in the care of the state, when they are moved on from one foster carer to the next, throughout their childhood, and often back and forth to their family as well?

A system that provides second and third and fourth homes is extremely damaging for children and EXTREMELYmDAMAGING FOR DOGS.

If you are going to work in this area I suggest that you start thinking about this aspect VERY VERY CAREFULLY.

Souff is one of the many people who has to pick up the pieces when naive and willing owners take on a dog that has "a past" of having been rehomed multiple times.

Dogs feel rejection; Dogs dont have a memory that can be wiped BLANK every time they are re-homed ....... for whatever reason.

I have been working with a family today who have had their new dog for 3 weeks. The new dog is a 10 month old pup, already at its second home.

Up until yesterday, only 1 member of a family of 4 could handle this pup. Yesterday, the heater on a cold day brought a breakthrough, the pup snuggled down on No.2 family members lap.

His new family are very good with dogs, but this pup is already a "damaged dog".

The previous owners apparently have a track record of buying pups and then telling their vet that the dog is aggressive, just months later.

With help, and a lot of patience on the part of the family, we are working to ensure that this pup's home will be his last home. That it will truly be his forever home. If it does not work out with this family after a few months, this pup will be put to sleep humanely at a vets surgery.

No shelters.

No being put at the mercy of the welfare roundabout.

Human beings have already done the wrong thing by this pup and I will be damned if they get a another chance to do more damage.

Nine times out of ten, it is not the fault of the dog that he/she ends up in a shelter - life is a bitch and some people are mongrels.

But ...... IT IS ANOTHER FORM OF ANIMAL CRUELTY TO MOVE A DOG TO HOME AFTER HOME AFTER HOME.

The number of saints, who can take in a damaged dog and rehabilitate the dog successfully, are simply not around and a reality check needs to be made.

Far better to work with people to get it right the first time, and the second time, but on a very conditional basis.

Humans have too greater a capacity to screw up animals, particularly those dogs that are already damaged dogs.

Souff

[corrie]

Hear hear, Souff.

[poodlefan]

A&E:

To me this does not sound like the dog i knew, and i thought maybe a bit harsh on the shelters side of things IF he was playing up would they not take into concideration that he was probably very stressed and scared after being left at a totally new place with no one he knew and dogs barking and all the rest that happens at a shelter?

It is of little consolation to the victim of a serious dog bite that the dog was probably only scared. A dog that cannot be handled safely by shelter staff is a disaster waiting to happen and when it comes to dog aggression size DOES matter.

It may not be "fair" that very large dogs get no second chances when it comes to aggression but I fail to see how killing all dogs that give aggressive warnings would be an improvement.

If you want to give a dog a death sentence, buy a crossbred pup (preferably black or brindle) that grows into a very large dog, don't socialise or train it and then find yourself unable to keep it. Those adult dogs have bugger all chances of rehoming in most pound environments.

[aussielover]

That is a very sad story. In the idela world, every dog would be given a chance and trained and then rehomed. However, in reality I don't think aggressive dogs should be rehomed, especially when there are so many dogs with great temperaments waiting for homes...

The vets/staff can only judge the dog by the behaviour he has shown them, which unfortunately was not good in this case.

I think it would be irresponsible for them to rehome a dog that has shown any type of aggression, how do they know the dog won't feel threatened in a new environment (ie the potential adopters home) and act aggressively?

[Dame Aussie]

If the staffs experience with this dog included him acting aggressively towards them they have no option but to PTS.

The people who surrendered him would have been told that he may be PTS, maybe they should have tried harder to rehome him as they took on the responsibility when they took him on as a pet.

Don't criticise the staff at the shelter, the people surrendering are the ones taking the easy way out.