Is It Possible For Dogs Temperment To Change This Much?

[ash&elar]

I am just curious as i dont know the answer, but here is the story.

Friends of the family had a big cross bred dog looked something like a mastiff/boxer cross (quite big about 40-50kilo's with similar feature of a boxer or mastiff but he could of been a mix of anything i dont know where they got him from) he was 2 and a half yrs old, had been desexed as a pup, with regular vet visits for booster shots n all that, he wasnt the best with other dogs as they didnt know many people with dogs and never did any formal training with him just the training they did on their own, but he was great with all people, my mum told me a while ago they came home to find a stranger sitting in the front yard with him drinking a cuppa (think the area was a bit on the rough side) and the dog was sitting there happily getting a pat, anyway just trying to show he was good with people kids from toddlers through to elderly (that i seen the few times we all visited for family things and catching up) but sometime this yr they had to make the decision to rehome him for personal reasons (health and having to move into a smaller house) they tried to rehome him themselves but no one was interested so they had to take him to an rspca shelter they told the people of his problems with other dogs (it was mostly male dogs close to his own size not all dogs) and they said something along the lines of if he is good with people and ok with most dogs he should be fine but he does have to pass the vet test and temp test?..........

Someone they know is good friends with one of the workers at the shelter and this person asked about the dog (i think that is how they found out i have been told this by my mother who got told by the dogs owners) and they were told that the dog was put down the next morning because he was not any good with the staff or the vet....

To me this does not sound like the dog i knew, and i thought maybe a bit harsh on the shelters side of things IF he was playing up would they not take into concideration that he was probably very stressed and scared after being left at a totally new place with no one he knew and dogs barking and all the rest that happens at a shelter?

I guess what i am asking is in you opinoins and or experiences does this sound like something that is likely to of happened and do you think his size and breeds had something to do with the decision?

( i have only just started volinteering at a shelter and it is a no pts shelter and pound the animals are moved to elsewhere if not adopted but i am not sure what they do if there is a aggresive dog as none have come in) and i watch the rspca show where they rehabilitate (wrong spelling sorry) the small dogs (most of the time) but have not seen anything about the big dogs.

Hope i have given enough info and asked the questions right, sorry if this post is hard to understand didnt quite know how to write it all. let me know if i need to clear anything up.

[Sandra777]

I am not at all surprised that the SPCA went straight for the needle rather than any thought of rehab for a mastiff/bull breed/smooth haired boofy type dog

And in response to your "header" question - yes it is perfectly possible for a nice but undersocialised dog to be so overwhealmed in a shelter situation that is appears "nasty". If that dog is a big boofer then my above statement applies

Poor dog.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Sandra777

[Erny]

Not surprised either.

Big dog. Easier to get rid of it and make room for another. They get paid either way.

[ash&elar]

I am not at all surprised that the SPCA went straight for the needle rather than any thought of rehab for a mastiff/bull breed/smooth haired boofy type dog

And in response to your "header" question - yes it is perfectly possible for a nice but undersocialised dog to be so overwhealmed in a shelter situation that is appears "nasty". If that dog is a big boofer then my above statement applies

Poor dog.

This is what i was thinking but didnt want to be judgmental as i dont know the stats on what dogs get pts at the rspca or any shelters, my dad also said a similar thing, pretty sad really.

Another question is there a holding time for the rspca or any of the shelters? like 24hrs or 48hrs before they can pts or move on to another shelter in case a owner regrets their decision and comes back for their pet?

I just think what if that dogs owner had brought him in because he had been really naughty for a long time and they were mad n angry n made a rash decision but slept on it n came back the next morning their dog would of already been pts!

[Souff]

Souff might need to find the flame suit for this one ........

So ...."Rastus" arrives at the concrete and steel shelter that probably smells slightly of other dogs urine and doggy disinfectant. An unfamiliar and rather threatening place to a confused dog and it is definitely not his territory. Familiar faces are nowhere in sight, and the familiar faces dont come and take him back home either. They have a new life to get on with, without Rastus. He is not likely to trust anyone here and he behaves in a threatening manner towards them, unable to understand that they would like to help him and find him a new home. It could be said that he is his own worst enemy.

He is not unique. There are hundreds and hundreds of large, mixed breed dogs who find themselves in this situation.

And where are the good fairies who will take this dog into their life and love this dog forever?

Well. truth is, they are usually not around.

So there are choices to be made:

1. Leave this fearful and savage dog in a shelter pen until the day that he snaps out of it and trusts them and behaves in a manner that will allow him to be put up for adoption;

2. Leave the gate open (neither legal nor humane)

3. Sedate him, tell porkies and get him to somebody elses's place ASAP

4. Give him a needle and say "Sorry Pal", ensuring that he does not become yet another victim of changes in peoples lives and of the welfare roundabout.

Spare a thought for the people who have to make Choice 4.

Souff would not have their job for quids.

Souff

Edited July 10, 2010 by Souff

[JulesP]

Souff you made me cry.

Poor dog.

[mackiemad]

he wouldn't have been put down the next day, he would have been given three or so days in the quarantine area (where they can't get out for walks because, well-quarantine!) and the reality is that they have very good ppl working with these dogs, they are used to having trained and (worse) untrained siezed guard-dogs in their care.

souff is right. these people offloaded a dog that may have been lovely in his secure environment with ppl he knew. in a shelter it is different. it is also very hard to find homes for big, adult, DA males so they had the choice to work with him for a few weeks, one on one, before trying him again in a temp test or putting him down when they realised it wasn't viable and minimising the stress on the dog. they have a whole lot of dogs to rehome and i guarantee that NO-ONE at the rspca like putting down a dog, nor do they look at a bull breed type and say, oh well his life isn't worth much. not all the rspca are hugh wirth. we do get paid either way erny but there are realities to face, no matter how much we care.

perhaps she should have taken the dog to a no kill shelter such as aaps or save-a-dog, they would have had the time to spend with him, working through any problems. can i also say that the rspca get a whole lot of ppl surrendering animals saying that the animal bit another animal or a child. the receptionest tells them rehoming is unlikely and they hand the dog over anyway-or worse try and explain away what the dog did and that he'd be fine in another family home.

sadly it doesn't matter now as it is a moot point

[dancinbcs]

Well said Souff.

The reality is that dogs like that have almost no chance of being re-homed. There is simply no demand for them and if owners surrender them to a shelter there is a very high chance that they will be pts the same day. The shelter staff have to make many tough decisions and the only large crossbreds that are likely to find a home are those with perfect temperaments and behaviour. Being in a shelter can definitely freak some dogs out so temperament is very hard to assess in that environment.

As the op said "they tried to rehome him themselves but no one was interested". The huge majority of people looking for a second hand crossbred dog want a little dog or something like a spaniel or lab cross. Happy, friendly, well socialised, non aggressive dogs, small to medium size are what most people are looking for.

It is also a numbers game. When I worked for a shelter the most numerous surrenders at that time were cattle, shepherd and bull terrier crosses. You might realistically have a chance of homing one of each of those crosses in a week. The problem was that you would have 10 or more of each surrendered each week. So the lucky few would be chosen to go up for adoption and all the others had to be pts.

Nearly all the little dogs were rehomed very quickly as were the very few purebreds that came in.

Most people live in a fantasy land where they believe that there are good homes waiting for the dogs they no longer want. Sadly, it is just a fantasy.

If you cannot keep a dog you should find it a new home or stay with it as it is pts, not surrender it to a shelter where it will be scared in it's final days or hours. Shelters should really be for true emergencies where an owner becomes ill, or dies and there is no one to take or make arrangements for the dog. Owners need to think very carefully before they get a dog and work out what will happen in the event that they cannot keep it. They need to be realistic about how "appealing" their dog is likely to be to others if it needs to be re-homed. If the dog is not the appealing type then they have to know that if they cannot keep it then the alternative is to have it pts.

[persephone]

If you cannot keep a dog you should find it a new home or stay with it as it is pts, not surrender it to a shelter where it will be scared in it's final days or hours.

Agreed . Unfortunately a lot of people think a 'shelter' is just that - and don't understand that a stressed dog will not be the cute and loving pet it was at home.

Souff- very well written .

- perhaps he made a desperate attempt ,and bit a staff member? perhaps he went absolutely crazy ... and lost control? It happens.Perhaps this dog was PTS the next morning.

[Guest Clover]

Very well said Souff. The reality of it is so sad .

RIP big fella, no human will let you down again.

[Souff]

Souff you made me cry.

Poor dog.

Sorry Jules.

And to the original poster, yes, stress like this on a dog can change a lot of things very quickly. I hope you can help some dogs in your volunteering work, but please accept that there is often not a second chance for dogs.

Please try to tell every puppy and dog buyer that "a puppy is for life" - they are our responsibility as owners and it should not be so easy for us to hand the responsibility of ownership to another person or organisation imho.

We are stuck with our relatives for life, and so it should be with the dogs when people become dog owners.

Souff

[casowner]

Agree Souff.

Having worked in a shelter and seen the behavioural reactions of the dogs of course his behaviour could be changed. Handovers where I was were able to be walked straight into the PTS room. People hand their dog over and say that your dog is a barker, fence jumper, not good with kids, can be dog aggro well then you might as well give him the green needle yourself. Many times I believe the dogs "issues" were exaggerated so the owners did not feel as guilty for abandoning them, but all they do is minimise what if any chance the dog has of rehoming.

Shelters have to be very careful especially with big breeds to protect their staff as any "suss" big dog can inflict deadly damage and many shelter workers are young kids that just love dogs and want to spend time with them.

To me the responsibilty lies with the people handing the dog over in the first instance

[dogbesotted]

Souff might need to find the flame suit for this one ........

So ...."Rastus" arrives at the concrete and steel shelter that probably smells slightly of other dogs urine and doggy disinfectant. An unfamiliar and rather threatening place to a confused dog and it is definitely not his territory. Familiar faces are nowhere in sight, and the familiar faces dont come and take him back home either. They have a new life to get on with, without Rastus. He is not likely to trust anyone here and he behaves in a threatening manner towards them, unable to understand that they would like to help him and find him a new home. It could be said that he is his own worst enemy.

He is not unique. There are hundreds and hundreds of large, mixed breed dogs who find themselves in this situation.

And where are the good fairies who will take this dog into their life and love this dog forever?

Well. truth is, they are usually not around.

So there are choices to be made:

1. Leave this fearful and savage dog in a shelter pen until the day that he snaps out of it and trusts them and behaves in a manner that will allow him to be put up for adoption;

2. Leave the gate open (neither legal nor humane)

3. Sedate him, tell porkies and get him to somebody elses's place ASAP

4. Give him a needle and say "Sorry Pal", ensuring that he does not become yet another victim of changes in peoples lives and of the welfare roundabout.

Spare a thought for the people who have to make Choice 4.

Souff would not have their job for quids.

Souff

right on the money there Souff

it is such a tragedy but many people need to realise there are worse things than a quick humane death....we cannot save them all....

when i had big dogs ( two dogs bred for pigging) and The Divine Miss sophie managed to get in pup ( i know i should have had her desexed earlier) i had her speyed... then and there. awful awful, awful .. but what were the lives of the pups going to be like? Now i have learned more but that experience was part of my learning curve

H

Edited July 11, 2010 by dogbesotted

[ash&elar]

Souff might need to find the flame suit for this one ........

So ...."Rastus" arrives at the concrete and steel shelter that probably smells slightly of other dogs urine and doggy disinfectant. An unfamiliar and rather threatening place to a confused dog and it is definitely not his territory. Familiar faces are nowhere in sight, and the familiar faces dont come and take him back home either. They have a new life to get on with, without Rastus. He is not likely to trust anyone here and he behaves in a threatening manner towards them, unable to understand that they would like to help him and find him a new home. It could be said that he is his own worst enemy.

He is not unique. There are hundreds and hundreds of large, mixed breed dogs who find themselves in this situation.

And where are the good fairies who will take this dog into their life and love this dog forever?

Well. truth is, they are usually not around.

So there are choices to be made:

1. Leave this fearful and savage dog in a shelter pen until the day that he snaps out of it and trusts them and behaves in a manner that will allow him to be put up for adoption;

2. Leave the gate open (neither legal nor humane)

3. Sedate him, tell porkies and get him to somebody elses's place ASAP

4. Give him a needle and say "Sorry Pal", ensuring that he does not become yet another victim of changes in peoples lives and of the welfare roundabout.

Spare a thought for the people who have to make Choice 4.

Souff would not have their job for quids.

Souff

Thanks souff, you made good points and i do not envy the people who have to do the job of number 4.

[Greytmate]

I wouldn't be too quick to listen to what these people say about the dog they surrendered, the only reason they would have made an enquiry was to lessen any feelings of guilt. That didn't work, so I am not surprised they are now questioning the RSPCA testing.

You say you work in a shelter that does not pts. Do they accept all surrenders, including large cross breeds like this one? If the dogs are not adopted, what is done by the shelter to help them be adopted? Where are they moved to if not adopted?

A shelter like the RSPCA doesn't have a choice like some shelters do, if there are too many animals that turn up at the door, some will have to be put to sleep.

[ash&elar]

he wouldn't have been put down the next day, he would have been given three or so days in the quarantine area (where they can't get out for walks because, well-quarantine!) and the reality is that they have very good ppl working with these dogs, they are used to having trained and (worse) untrained siezed guard-dogs in their care.

souff is right. these people offloaded a dog that may have been lovely in his secure environment with ppl he knew. in a shelter it is different. it is also very hard to find homes for big, adult, DA males so they had the choice to work with him for a few weeks, one on one, before trying him again in a temp test or putting him down when they realised it wasn't viable and minimising the stress on the dog. they have a whole lot of dogs to rehome and i guarantee that NO-ONE at the rspca like putting down a dog, nor do they look at a bull breed type and say, oh well his life isn't worth much. not all the rspca are hugh wirth. we do get paid either way erny but there are realities to face, no matter how much we care.

perhaps she should have taken the dog to a no kill shelter such as aaps or save-a-dog, they would have had the time to spend with him, working through any problems. can i also say that the rspca get a whole lot of ppl surrendering animals saying that the animal bit another animal or a child. the receptionest tells them rehoming is unlikely and they hand the dog over anyway-or worse try and explain away what the dog did and that he'd be fine in another family home.

sadly it doesn't matter now as it is a moot point

He was def put down within 24hrs for growling at the staff and vet when they were trying to do a health check (i asked to make sure, but this is just what the owners were told which was repeated from its original source).

You say offloaded, they were trying to do the right thing by the dog the husband was diagnosed with cancer and the wife was nursing him they had to move into a block of units with no room not to mention no time to give the dog quality of life.

Because the rspca is the only shelter they were aware of, i myself did not know of the no kill shelters untill i started working at one.

But i do realise that there are way more animals who need adoption than ppl coming in to adopt them.

My thing was he was not given more than 24hrs that seems a lil harsh.

[ash&elar]

Well said Souff.

The reality is that dogs like that have almost no chance of being re-homed. There is simply no demand for them and if owners surrender them to a shelter there is a very high chance that they will be pts the same day. The shelter staff have to make many tough decisions and the only large crossbreds that are likely to find a home are those with perfect temperaments and behaviour. Being in a shelter can definitely freak some dogs out so temperament is very hard to assess in that environment.

As the op said "they tried to rehome him themselves but no one was interested". The huge majority of people looking for a second hand crossbred dog want a little dog or something like a spaniel or lab cross. Happy, friendly, well socialised, non aggressive dogs, small to medium size are what most people are looking for.

It is also a numbers game. When I worked for a shelter the most numerous surrenders at that time were cattle, shepherd and bull terrier crosses. You might realistically have a chance of homing one of each of those crosses in a week. The problem was that you would have 10 or more of each surrendered each week. So the lucky few would be chosen to go up for adoption and all the others had to be pts.

Nearly all the little dogs were rehomed very quickly as were the very few purebreds that came in.

Most people live in a fantasy land where they believe that there are good homes waiting for the dogs they no longer want. Sadly, it is just a fantasy.

If you cannot keep a dog you should find it a new home or stay with it as it is pts, not surrender it to a shelter where it will be scared in it's final days or hours. Shelters should really be for true emergencies where an owner becomes ill, or dies and there is no one to take or make arrangements for the dog. Owners need to think very carefully before they get a dog and work out what will happen in the event that they cannot keep it. They need to be realistic about how "appealing" their dog is likely to be to others if it needs to be re-homed. If the dog is not the appealing type then they have to know that if they cannot keep it then the alternative is to have it pts.

Sorry but i dont agree with this, i believe MOST dogs deserve a second chance and even a third or fourth esp when their rehoming is of no fault of their own, the way i read this is you are saying it is better to take a dog into your vets and have it pts than take it to a shelter where it could be rehomed? even if the chances are slim i would hope ppl would make the shelter choice.

[ash&elar]

Souff you made me cry.

Poor dog.

Sorry Jules.

And to the original poster, yes, stress like this on a dog can change a lot of things very quickly. I hope you can help some dogs in your volunteering work, but please accept that there is often not a second chance for dogs.

Thanks i thought that maybe stress could do it. Yeah i already want to take home every lab that comes in! luckily most of our dogs are pound dogs and they are picked up, though we do have this young pup that was brought in as a stray and is now up for adoption, i thought he must of been about 6months just from the look and size of him but he was chewing on my pants the other day when i was cleaning his pen and his tooth got stuck which made me notice he still has puppy teeth! he has the markings of a jrt with a bit of a beagle look to his face but already the size of say a medium kelpie? i named him toby and he is full of mischief but he will be getting moved to the larger shelter soon. me n my sister always try to give the dogs a walk/run each when we are there so they get a lil bit better quality of life.

Please try to tell every puppy and dog buyer that "a puppy is for life" - they are our responsibility as owners and it should not be so easy for us to hand the responsibility of ownership to another person or organisation imho.

We are stuck with our relatives for life, and so it should be with the dogs when people become dog owners.

Souff

[casowner]

he wouldn't have been put down the next day, he would have been given three or so days in the quarantine area (where they can't get out for walks because, well-quarantine!) and the reality is that they have very good ppl working with these dogs, they are used to having trained and (worse) untrained siezed guard-dogs in their care.

souff is right. these people offloaded a dog that may have been lovely in his secure environment with ppl he knew. in a shelter it is different. it is also very hard to find homes for big, adult, DA males so they had the choice to work with him for a few weeks, one on one, before trying him again in a temp test or putting him down when they realised it wasn't viable and minimising the stress on the dog. they have a whole lot of dogs to rehome and i guarantee that NO-ONE at the rspca like putting down a dog, nor do they look at a bull breed type and say, oh well his life isn't worth much. not all the rspca are hugh wirth. we do get paid either way erny but there are realities to face, no matter how much we care.

perhaps she should have taken the dog to a no kill shelter such as aaps or save-a-dog, they would have had the time to spend with him, working through any problems. can i also say that the rspca get a whole lot of ppl surrendering animals saying that the animal bit another animal or a child. the receptionest tells them rehoming is unlikely and they hand the dog over anyway-or worse try and explain away what the dog did and that he'd be fine in another family home.

sadly it doesn't matter now as it is a moot point

He was def put down within 24hrs for growling at the staff and vet when they were trying to do a health check (i asked to make sure, but this is just what the owners were told which was repeated from its original source).

You say offloaded, they were trying to do the right thing by the dog the husband was diagnosed with cancer and the wife was nursing him they had to move into a block of units with no room not to mention no time to give the dog quality of life.

Because the rspca is the only shelter they were aware of, i myself did not know of the no kill shelters untill i started working at one.

But i do realise that there are way more animals who need adoption than ppl coming in to adopt them.

My thing was he was not given more than 24hrs that seems a lil harsh.

Sorry, but I would have put him down too, a 50kg dog growling at handlers is not on and a risk to rehome, why should they put theirs and the publics safety at risk? The dog may well have been fine outside of a shelter environment but that is where he was put and unfortunately he is the one that paid the ultimate price. When you handover a dog you are effectively signing over all responsibility to that animal and they would have been informed at the time there was a chance he may not have been rehomed, yet he was left there anyway.

I am very sorry for your friends situation and illness, truly I am, but that doesn't lessen their responsibilty to their pet.

Edited July 11, 2010 by casowner

[ash&elar]

I wouldn't be too quick to listen to what these people say about the dog they surrendered, the only reason they would have made an enquiry was to lessen any feelings of guilt. That didn't work, so I am not surprised they are now questioning the RSPCA testing.

Of course they felt guilty, they are not horrible ppl, and i wouldnt say he was 'tested' when pts within 24hrs (agreeable maybe for good reason but imo he wasnt given temperament testing)

You say you work in a shelter that does not pts. Do they accept all surrenders, including large cross breeds like this one? If the dogs are not adopted, what is done by the shelter to help them be adopted? Where are they moved to if not adopted?

A shelter like the RSPCA doesn't have a choice like some shelters do, if there are too many animals that turn up at the door, some will have to be put to sleep.