Who Should Breed?

[lappiemum]

I'm sorry, but don't most breed standards state that the dogs must be bred 'fit for the work that they were bred to do'?

I am not a breeder, but I do show. I am new to showing. I do know though, that breed standards call for dogs to be fit for the purpose for which they were originally bred - in other words, my working dog should still be able to go out and work sheep. If a breeder doesn't care about that part of the standard, aren't checking for sound dogs that conform to the standard, then they won't be fit for work, their conformation will mean that it won't be able to work sheep all day. Showing a dog is one way of ensuring that good conformation.

I may be wrong but I am interpreting your post as saying that if dogs are bred as close to the standard as possible, then they will be able to perform their function.

A dog can be built perfectly but it matters more as to what goes on in the head as to whether it can actually go out and perform its function. Of course it needs the correct body to go with it but without the brain, the body is merely nice to look at.

In some breeds, alot of the top dogs in that breed that actually perform their function to a high standard, would be laughed out of a show ring.

It is unfortunately necessary in some breeds to have two distinct lines. One breeding to show ring conformation standard and another breeding for working ability and function conformation.

Really not wanting to make this a one versus to other debate as they both serve purposes but just wanted to comment on the above post as some people dont realise the differences.

I understand your points, but find it interesting that there are differences, when in reality, reading the standards, there probably shouldn't be.

(Naive of me, I know).

I also would have thought that a bad temperament wouldn't have been good in the show ring. Dog nervous of the judge etc. Would have thought that good temperament was important in showing - not easily distracted, focused on work, outgoing, responds well to people. Would have thought that these would be important in a show ring and also transferrable to do the work designed to do.

temperament is an interesting issue. There are dogs I know of that do very well in the ring as they 'present' well and are 'up' - yet i know of a couple that are quite dog agressive. The judge only sees them for a few seconds and if they are well handled, may never know.

[Staranais]

I also would have thought that a bad temperament wouldn't have been good in the show ring. Dog nervous of the judge etc. Would have thought that good temperament was important in showing - not easily distracted, focused on work, outgoing, responds well to people. Would have thought that these would be important in a show ring and also transferrable to do the work designed to do.

A temperament confident enough to be in the show ring is a good thing for a working dog to have. A dog too nervous to be in the showring will probably not be a good working dog. It would possibly be a crappy pet too, for that matter.

It's not a sufficient test to ensure the dog mentally has what is required to do many jobs, though.

[Esky the husky]

Don't show dogs in Europe have to undergo a temp test before they are shown?

Sorry I don't remember more of the details, but maybe that would be something worthwhile considering in Aus

[idigadog]

So what do you think has made the Aussie and US judges move away from a more 'working type' of shape and style? I mean it's not like the standard calls for a pluffy coat or a broader head so why do the show breeders follow this when you would think that they would follow the style of the working types?

*Flame suit on* - Because that's what wins in the ring. The breeders that breed only for show are hardly going to want to have something like one of my boys in their kennel because it would just be too much hard work. And to be honest, I wouldn't want a show style Sibe in mine because I think they have lost their working ability. That's JMHO though and I am a minority I guess in this country who likes the running style Sibes.

Unfortunately, judges can only judge what is put up before them so I guess it's a catch 22 and I certainly don't have the patience to attend shows every week and get knocked out by a judge who thinks my Sibe is a cross breed . Breed specialist Michael Jennings judged the SHCNSW show last year and told exhibitors later on at a seminar that if they didn't inject racing lines into their breeding programs then the state of the Siberian in Australia was heading downhill very quickly. I believe him but I dare say majority wouldn't! I certainly can't see any of the breeders who have been in it for a long time throwing out all their hard work and starting all over again.

Phew - I think I might be melting soon or should I be ducking for cover

Edited to say: Once again, I state that I have absolutely nothing against those who show their dogs. It's just not my thing :D

Edited July 10, 2010 by idigadog

[shortstep]

Don't show dogs in Europe have to undergo a temp test before they are shown?

Sorry I don't remember more of the details, but maybe that would be something worthwhile considering in Aus

Europe is made up of a lot of countries, each having their own KC and often other registries too. So they are all different. The northern countries like Finland, Sweden, Norway have been active in the type of breeding plans the Uni and RSPCA want us to adopt. Boards of interested persons (you may have heard that before) look at each breed and make up the breeding standards/rules.

They adjust breed standards to reduce extremes or any area that affects health or quality of life. Health testing is mandatory. A structure functional soundness exam (do not confuse with breed ring show type looks, working bred dogs pass these with flying colors). Often some sort of minimal temperament test and for some breeds a working test. In most cases the working test is so minimal as to not be meaningful, however it gives the illusion that the dog has talent when if fact they would never be selected by a working breeder. I would rather see no working test requirements then this. Some have rules about the use estimated breed values, most have limits on COI.

In general I think many of the European dog breeders (and dog owners/buyers) are further ahead in some of the newer ideas on dog breeding.

[WoofnHoof]

So what do you think has made the Aussie and US judges move away from a more 'working type' of shape and style? I mean it's not like the standard calls for a pluffy coat or a broader head so why do the show breeders follow this when you would think that they would follow the style of the working types?

*Flame suit on* - Because that's what wins in the ring. The breeders that breed only for show are hardly going to want to have something like one of my boys in their kennel because it would just be too much hard work. And to be honest, I wouldn't want a show style Sibe in mine because I think they have lost their working ability. That's JMHO though and I am a minority I guess in this country who likes the running style Sibes.

Unfortunately, judges can only judge what is put up before them so I guess it's a catch 22 and I certainly don't have the patience to attend shows every week and get knocked out by a judge who thinks my Sibe is a cross breed :D . Breed specialist Michael Jennings judged the SHCNSW show last year and told exhibitors later on at a seminar that if they didn't inject racing lines into their breeding programs then the state of the Siberian in Australia was heading downhill very quickly. I believe him but I dare say majority wouldn't! I certainly can't see any of the breeders who have been in it for a long time throwing out all their hard work and starting all over again.

Phew - I think I might be melting soon or should I be ducking for cover

Edited to say: Once again, I state that I have absolutely nothing against those who show their dogs. It's just not my thing

Thanks for the info! I wonder why the judges initially started rewarding those types though. When you say that one of your boys in a show kennel would be too much hard work do you mean that they are too high energy?

Sorry for the 20 questions I just find it really interesting!

[RealityBites]

I have never bred dogs and don't think I ever will, but I have bred Friesian horses for the last 8 years. And shown them, and broken them in and ridden them. I have always been very interested in bloodlines, and have been lucky enough to have a stallion that threw progeny much better than himself. And to be able to import a mare from the Netherlands. HOWEVER in the last few years Friesians have become alot more popular and we have seen a huge increase in the amount of imports. There have been some very nice stallions bought over, much nicer than my boy, and I made the decision to have him gelded for several reasons. One, he is a 'baroque' style, heavier built and more true to the old breed standard, wheeras today the dutch judges are looking for a finer built, longer legged 'sport horse'. The ony thing my boy would win hands down in was temprement. And he passed that on to his progeny too. I think that people have to be honest with themselves with what they have, what they are trying to achieve and what they are doing for the breed in general. I would not breed a dog that had not been shown or trialled, or in some way proven itself to be a worthy genetic contributor to it's breed. And yes it would suck to be miles away from being able to achieve that, in which case, if it was me, I would lease a dog to a show or trialling home to prove itself before I bred it. Just my 2 cents worth

[OSoSwift]

I would lease a dog to a show or trialling home to prove itself before I bred it.

My previous dog went away for a month and was never the same again.

I would not do it now as they are my pets first. My pets stay with me.

[Sheridan]

I find it odd when people say it's 'necessary' to have two different lines for showing and working, Idigadog when you say your dogs wouldn't stand a chance in the ring what exactly would the judge be holding against them? Do the judges give reasoning for putting dogs down in the placings? What would be the sort of traits that would go against your dogs in the ring? I'm just trying to understand why there is such a difference in the types and why a judge wouldn't put up a working line dog if they are all supposedly being bred to the same standard?

It's like the two different sort of wheaten terriers being shown, one with the correct coat, one not. The woolly, American style coats up until recently were seen far more often in the show ring so the ones with the correct coat weren't put up. It's what judges are used to.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Sheridan

[Gayle.]

The working lines Aussies are smaller, lighter framed and have more random markings and less white. The merles are often all merle with no white at all, self and bi-colours are more common and coats in general are shorter and not as flashy. Show lines tend to be more along the extreme end of the "moderate" requirements of the standard. Heavier bone, longer and thicker coat, more uniform markings.

In other words, judges like the pretty ones better.

[Sheridan]

The working lines Aussies are smaller, lighter framed and have more random markings and less white. The merles are often all merle with no white at all, self and bi-colours are more common and coats in general are shorter and not as flashy. Show lines tend to be more along the extreme end of the "moderate" requirements of the standard. Heavier bone, longer and thicker coat, more uniform markings.

In other words, judges like the pretty ones better.

Because when it comes down to it, shows are beauty contests (though why anyone would pick an incorrectly coated wheaten above one with a correct coat is mindboggling).

[Agility Dogs]

When people are talking about dogs needing to be trialled or shown to be worthy of being bred from are you really talking about simply being proven in some arena or other or do you specifically look for ANKC titles in their pedigree.

eg: I have a friend who breeds BC's who doesn't show, but who trials a LOT in ADAA and has some very high level titles on her dogs. They are also titled in other performance areas, but again, not ANKC recognised.

I also know of some well bred flyball BC's who have minimal if any ANKC titles, but again are some of the best dogs in the country in that arena.

Does this matter if she can prove the quality of her dogs to potential owners?

Personally if a dog has proven itself I'd be happy to own one of its progeny (all other things - conformation, temperament etc being in line), I just wondered about other people's opinions.

[Staranais]

I think it depends what you're looking for. In some breeds "working titles" are mostly bitesport titles, which aren't administered through AnKC anyway.

[geo]

Just to add my opinion, when looking at a dog i want it to be well put together, ie a good gait, well proportioned, the things that a lot of judges should look at and in turn it should be these dogs that excel at working titles because they are more physically adept to do so... so they should theoretically go hand in hand. All the other stuff like colouration, length of coat, eye colour, or any sort of beauty fraff doesn't interest me.

So if a breeder had the physical and health aspects at the top of their list then yep that's what i'd look for, most show breeders surely would feel the same...

[RallyValley]

When people are talking about dogs needing to be trialled or shown to be worthy of being bred from are you really talking about simply being proven in some arena or other or do you specifically look for ANKC titles in their pedigree.

eg: I have a friend who breeds BC's who doesn't show, but who trials a LOT in ADAA and has some very high level titles on her dogs. They are also titled in other performance areas, but again, not ANKC recognised.

I also know of some well bred flyball BC's who have minimal if any ANKC titles, but again are some of the best dogs in the country in that arena.

Does this matter if she can prove the quality of her dogs to potential owners?

Personally if a dog has proven itself I'd be happy to own one of its progeny (all other things - conformation, temperament etc being in line), I just wondered about other people's opinions.

She can prove the quality, she can invite potential puppy buyers to come spectate at flyball trials and/or show videos, ribbons trophies ect! The same goes for ADAA agility, disc dog, dock dogs, herding(not herding trials), working to the gun (but not gundog trials) ect. you may not have titles but you can prove it visually. People who do nothing (no showing, sports ect) wth thier dogs is not even comparable to someone who works thier dogs, just not in an ANKC recognised forum.

[idigadog]

I wonder why the judges initially started rewarding those types though. When you say that one of your boys in a show kennel would be too much hard work do you mean that they are too high energy?

Sorry for the 20 questions I just find it really interesting!

I mean that they wouldn't get put up easily in the ring because they are not 'the norm'. They wouldn't be considered pretty although I think they are stunning. I might be a little biased though :D I like my boys to be fit and athletic

[puglvr]

I think things have gone a little off track but to me its appears that "not showing" isn't the issue. It's if you have the intention. If you can't show due to you personal circumstances eg. distance, age, family commitments that shouldn't be a problem. If you have the intention/desire to show and put your stock up for scrutiny (in whatever arena) then you shouldn't be labelled a byb. But there are people out there registered and unregistered who have no intention to ever do this, and that is the difference.

Personally, I believe if you are well intentioned then you should be aiming to "show" you dogs at Breed Specialties (if available) under international specialists. Winning or placing consistently at these should be an indication that what you are doing is on the right track.

I'm not going to go into working dogs as not all breeds are going to be involved.

By the way, I have competed in Obedience and Agility. I have a NADAC titled Pug and also a pug that has participated in tracking. I live on a farm and can appreciate value of the "working dog".

Can I just ask who or What is "the uni"?

[WoofnHoof]

I wonder why the judges initially started rewarding those types though. When you say that one of your boys in a show kennel would be too much hard work do you mean that they are too high energy?

Sorry for the 20 questions I just find it really interesting! :D

I mean that they wouldn't get put up easily in the ring because they are not 'the norm'. They wouldn't be considered pretty although I think they are stunning. I might be a little biased though I like my boys to be fit and athletic

Don't worry I think your dogs are stunning too :D Fit and athletic should be the norm in a working animal even for show, IMO especially for show as you can clearly see the conformation in a fit tucked animal, I go to shows and see thoroughbreds with cellulite!

[shortstep]

Can I just ask who or What is "the uni"?

Below are some links to get you started.

When ever anyone ask about showing and it's value in breeding programs, we should not leave out of the conversation what is happening across the world and much of it coming from our unis right here in Australia.

There is a huge and successful movement, to at the very least alter how breeds are viewed and bred, or at the worst to destroy the concept of pedigreed dogs all together.

Right now the attack if centered on kennel clubs and their activities, but I believe as progress is gained in this area, it will be moved to those breeders outside of the kennel club, including purebred working breeds such as kelpies (WCC dogs) and others.

If ever there was a time for all dog breeders to join together this is it. I also think it is a time for Kennel club breeders to look closely at our beliefs and to change where needed. I do not think the nice little articles on how to breed healthy dogs in the NSW dogs magazine are going to fool anyone. There needs to be real change not just lip service. Certainly the idea of show ring needs to be given a back seat in the list of what is important in breeding programs. Edited to add, BTW I noticed the proposed ANKC accredited breeder does not mention anything about show ring activites.

Sorry if this sounds harsh but there is no way to defend some breeds as fit for function, even as a pet. We need to admit this and change our practices to correct what we can and not continue. Even then I am not sure that will be the end of the complaint and attack. I believe there is a great belief in the Unis that all breeds should be done away with and possibly even the idea of dogs as domestic pets.

I really do not know where it will end but it is no use pretending it is not happening. Having fun little debates about if someone should even breed dogs if they are not at the dog shows seems like sticking ones head in sand.

Flaws on Paws mission 2008 (Uni)

http://www.usyd.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=2695

Then with the help of the RSPCA and other animal right groups the battle moved to the UK

Pedigree dog breeding in the UK a Major Concern

Our Uni assisted with this RSPCA work which is the foundation of the attack. This work is being used in Australia by RSPCA

http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?...application/pdf

UK summary purebred dog health (kennel club report)

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1...maryresults.pdf

Then there was the UK Parlament inquiry report

http://breedinginquiry.files.wordpress.com...uiry-120110.pdf

You need to speak to the breed clubs, but the standards are being changed to remove extremes or health relalted strucural problems in the UK and I believe ANKC have agreeded to adopt these changes in our pedigrees.

Then back to Asstralia

10 point plan for ANKC breeders (uni)

http://www.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/research/dis..._point_plan.pdf

Animal Welfare Concern; Tracking Disease in Pedigreed Dogs (Uni Australila) (my vet is now hooked in to this as are several hunderd other vets in NSW. Every time you take your dog to the vet the information gets sent to the Uni.)

http://www.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/Foundation/help/dogs.shtml

Faq Frequent Questions (Uni)

http://www.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/research/disorders/faq.shtml

Early on in a major US mag, has bull dog pup peeing on AKC reg papers on the cover.

One of the early public reports 1994

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,981964,00.html

There is heaps more, just go to the Uni and search the topics

This all started in the animal rights movement.

Does anyone have the link for the original list of demands for changes, no merles, bo big dogs, no small dogs, no short noses, no long ears. generci dog shape only. This was about 18 years ago and was the lead in for the changes in europe??? I can;t find my link.

Think they will only after show dogs, think again. Just give it some time.

http://www.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/teaching_lea...gSurvey2009.pdf

and another

http://www.dogsnsw.org.au/upload/documents...rvey%202009.pdf

Hope this helps.

Edited July 11, 2010 by shortstep

[Staranais]

There is a huge and successful movement, to at the very least alter how breeds are viewed and bred, or at the worst to destroy the concept of pedigreed dogs all together.

Right now the attack if centered on kennel clubs and their activities, but I believe as progress is gained in this area, it will be moved to those breeders outside of the kennel club, including purebred working breeds such as kelpies (WCC dogs) and others.

If ever there was a time for all dog breeders to join together this is it. I also think it is a time for Kennel club breeders to look closely at our beliefs and to change where needed. I do not think the nice little articles on how to breed healthy dogs in the NSW dogs magazine are going to fool anyone. There needs to be real change not just lip service. Certainly the idea of show ring needs to be given a back seat in the list of what is important in breeding programs. Edited to add, BTW I noticed the proposed ANKC accredited breeder does not mention anything about show ring activites.

Sorry if this sounds harsh but there is no way to defend some breeds as fit for function, even as a pet. We need to admit this and change our practices to correct what we can and not continue. Even then I am not sure that will be the end of the complaint and attack. I believe there is a great belief in the Unis that all breeds should be done away with and possibly even the idea of dogs as domestic pets.

I think that if the kennel club doesn't start to self regulate, then they are going to have regulation imposed upon them from outside. If the public doesn't see the Kennel Club holding dodgy or incompetant breeders to account, then they are going to want to do it themselves. And the public tend to regulate these things with a mallet, not with a scalpel.

The Kennel Club is an easy group to target. If some registered breeders are breeding less than healthy dogs, then I suspect all registered breeders will eventually be penalised for it.