Who Should Breed?

[ellz]

RnL, I honestly think you're taking it all too personally.

[OSoSwift]

Maybe Ellz, but I am saying it from my perspective, whilst trying to get the point across, that some people that don't show can breed nice dogs, infact there are some on here that from what I understand breed very good dogs, but don't show, or show very little.

I do not like arrogance very much at all, and it is the posts with that tone that have got my hackles up a little.

At the end of the day what is said on here will not affect what I will or won't do, but sometimes the most arrogant are the ones in danger of getting caught up in " I have the best senario" only to find out down the track that maybe they don't.

Anyway said my bit, will leave it at that

Edited July 8, 2010 by Rommi n Lewis

[nabs]

So due to the fact I live 750kms from our main shows, have two young children and run a beef cattle farm, I can't breed dogs as I will have no idea what to breed for as I won't be showing, so therefore my dogs will be a mockery of their breed standard??

, I am breeding just for the money not for the fact I am breeding to keep a puppy for myself to continue and create my own lines and thus am breeding towars what I think is a WHippet as close to the standard as I can, and I am aiming to improve on each generation.

In your opinion you might be breeding to the standard. But how the heck do you really know? You are not being assessed against your peers. You live 750k away from dog shows. How do you manage to compare and learn being so isolated and not seeing other whippets?

I travel the world looking and learning. I am not elitist. I just want to educate myself. I am second generation in my breed and have been in it for over 40 years but still marvel in how much I still learn.

Why not just buy yourself a quality Whippet from a good breeder. Why do you need your own bloodlines? What is the purpose? It makes no sense to me.

[Lyla]

Great post.

I personally don't know of any serious show, performance or working dog breeder who does not do all this. The majority of these dogs are reared in optimum conditions or they have no hope of developing into quality show specimens or performing the work they were bred for.

It is the breeders that don't show, trial or work their dogs in any field that are more likely to raise puppies in sub-standard conditions. They tend to breed many more litters with no other goal than selling puppies. More puppies means less choice of buyers and dogs more likley to end up in rescue.

The issue should not be show vs work or show vs performance, but breeding dogs for a reason vs breeding just to produce puppies.

No I don't show as it wouldn't be physically possible to at the moment, BUT I had intended to become involved in obedience or similar once my kids were a bit older and all at school. Hopefully by then I would have a dog of the quality and ability to do this, as the dogs I have are from working parents.

It seems though, because I do not have a show ring name, that I am a money grabbing, BYB'ing puppy mill with sub standard conditions. If this was really my aim, why would I bother being registered? Pet owners don't generally give a hoot about papers. I certainly am not breeding aimless litter after litter, 3 litters ever actually. I also strongly recommend puppy buyers enrooling in puppy classes in order to avoid them ending up in shelters. Why would i also have joined this forum if I did not give a shit? It would be much easier to join the thousands of Petlink ads if this was all I was after.

I had a passion for the dogs. I had a long term plan. But I wonder if it would even be possible to get anywhere longterm when there are so many prejudices and judgements thrown at me while I am trying to learn. Surely the learning continues over many years, no one could essentially know everything. Why crush people who are trying to make the effort to be doing the right thing?

My aim was not an argument of show dogs vs work dogs, or anything similar. It was a genuine question from someone in the early years with a long term plan, wanting to learn as much as possible while enjoying my breed. I did not realise that the politics went so deep as to label someone a BYBer or random puppy producer because everything hasn't pulled together in 5 minutes.

[idigadog]

Just to swing the conversation a little, Australia wide there were 168 kennel prefixes approved in March alone It does make me wonder how many of these are actually BYB's covering themselves by obtaining legit prefixes or do you think that they wouldn't bother to do that?

Does anyone else think that's a massive amount of new breeders in just one month? Would love to see the yearly figures.

[OSoSwift]

I would never claim to know it all and do the best I can to educate myself. It is harder being away from the hub of it, but not impossible.

Why would I need my own bloodines - well maybe I don't need them, but maybe I would like them. Maybe I would like to breed what I think is the best Whippet I can, with the view to being able to show the progeny down the track. Isn't that why most people would like to breed? To breed the best dog they can??

I have travelled reasonable extensively in the past, but cannot afford overseas travel, and shown my dog at national specialites and all breeds shows ( different breed) so when I can travel and show I will, but why should living 750kms away from such things mean that I shouldn't be able to do something I love and have a great passion for??? Maybe I can breed a really good dog, with breeder back up, guidence, and good choices?? And well maybe I can't but how will I know.

I still stand by some people have a eye for a dog and some don't regardless of if they show.

As long as mine are the best conformationally they can be, can hunt rabbits as they should be able to and do well in obedience, agility and flyball - when we get that up and running- Then I am happy. I do not expect everyone to agree with me.

Oh and I do have some very nice Whippets already

Edited July 8, 2010 by Rommi n Lewis

[Lyla]

So due to the fact I live 750kms from our main shows, have two young children and run a beef cattle farm, I can't breed dogs as I will have no idea what to breed for as I won't be showing, so therefore my dogs will be a mockery of their breed standard??

, I am breeding just for the money not for the fact I am breeding to keep a puppy for myself to continue and create my own lines and thus am breeding towars what I think is a WHippet as close to the standard as I can, and I am aiming to improve on each generation.

In your opinion you might be breeding to the standard. But how the heck do you really know? You are not being assessed against your peers. You live 750k away from dog shows. How do you manage to compare and learn being so isolated and not seeing other whippets?

I travel the world looking and learning. I am not elitist. I just want to educate myself. I am second generation in my breed and have been in it for over 40 years but still marvel in how much I still learn.

Why not just buy yourself a quality Whippet from a good breeder. Why do you need your own bloodlines? What is the purpose? It makes no sense to me.

Thats why we use the internet. Not everyone can duck overseas everytime they feel like it.

And who decides who is good enough, or should or shouldn't breed? I am sure the breed would suffer greatly if the breeders of the top couple of show dogs were the only ones allowed to produce puppies. The gene pool would be pretty limited in a short amount of time.

[Lyla]

Just to swing the conversation a little, Australia wide there were 168 kennel prefixes approved in March alone It does make me wonder how many of these are actually BYB's covering themselves by obtaining legit prefixes or do you think that they wouldn't bother to do that?

Does anyone else think that's a massive amount of new breeders in just one month? Would love to see the yearly figures.

BUT, would this be ok if all of them were on the show scene?

ETA: Yes it does seem alot though. How many breeds?

Edited July 8, 2010 by je2910

[idigadog]

BUT, would this be ok if all of them were on the show scene?

ETA: Yes it does seem alot though. How many breeds?

I don't have a listing of the breeds sorry.

[dancinbcs]

I would never claim to know it all and do the best I can to educate myself. It is harder being away from the hub of it, but not impossible.

Why would I need my own bloodines - well maybe I don't need them, but maybe I would like them. Maybe I would like to breed what I think is the best Whippet I can, with the view to being able to show the progeny down the track. Isn't that why most people would like to breed? To breed the best dog they can??

I have travelled reasonable extensively in the past, but cannot afford overseas travel, and shown my dog at national specialites and all breeds shows ( different breed) so when I can travel and show I will, but why should living 750kms away from such things mean that I shouldn't be able to do something I love and have a great passion for??? Maybe I can breed a really good dog, with breeder back up, guidence, and good choices?? And well maybe I can't but how will I know.

I still stand by some people have a eye for a dog and some don't regardless of if they show.

As long as mine are the best conformationally they can be, can hunt rabbits as they should be able to and do well in obedience, agility and flyball - when we get that up and running- Then I am happy. I do not expect everyone to agree with me.

Oh and I do have some very nice Whippets already

If you have succesfully shown and trialled dogs in the past and intend to show and trial again in the future, then that is a very different scenario to the person who buys a pure bred main registered bitch or two, adds a "stud dog", gets a prefix and believes that makes them a breeder, without ever learning about the breed. Breeders do not need to show all the time and there is nothing wrong with taking several years off from the show scene when life gets in the way of showing. You also don't need to actually go to shows yourself if you can place dogs in show homes that will campaign them for you.

The breeders I don't believe should be breeding are the ones that don't understand conformation, have never competed with their dogs or have given it a go and not been able to win anything because the dogs are not good enough. I have seen people with clearly inferior pet quality dogs try showing then instead of getting better dogs they decide to breed with what they have.

Of all the Border Collie breeders listed on DOL, only about a third of them should be breeding. The rest in my opinion are registered puppy producers with no idea of what the breed should be, that have never been to a show and don't prove their dogs in work or performance.

[dancinbcs]

I would never claim to know it all and do the best I can to educate myself. It is harder being away from the hub of it, but not impossible.

Why would I need my own bloodines - well maybe I don't need them, but maybe I would like them. Maybe I would like to breed what I think is the best Whippet I can, with the view to being able to show the progeny down the track. Isn't that why most people would like to breed? To breed the best dog they can??

I have travelled reasonable extensively in the past, but cannot afford overseas travel, and shown my dog at national specialites and all breeds shows ( different breed) so when I can travel and show I will, but why should living 750kms away from such things mean that I shouldn't be able to do something I love and have a great passion for??? Maybe I can breed a really good dog, with breeder back up, guidence, and good choices?? And well maybe I can't but how will I know.

I still stand by some people have a eye for a dog and some don't regardless of if they show.

As long as mine are the best conformationally they can be, can hunt rabbits as they should be able to and do well in obedience, agility and flyball - when we get that up and running- Then I am happy. I do not expect everyone to agree with me.

Oh and I do have some very nice Whippets already

If you have succesfully shown and trialled dogs in the past and intend to show and trial again in the future, then that is a very different scenario to the person who buys a pure bred main registered bitch or two, adds a "stud dog", gets a prefix and believes that makes them a breeder, without ever learning about the breed. Breeders do not need to show all the time and there is nothing wrong with taking several years off from the show scene when life gets in the way of showing. You also don't need to actually go to shows yourself if you can place dogs in show homes that will campaign them for you.

The breeders I don't believe should be breeding are the ones that don't understand conformation, have never competed with their dogs or have given it a go and not been able to win anything because the dogs are not good enough. I have seen people with clearly inferior pet quality dogs try showing then instead of getting better dogs they decide to breed with what they have.

Of all the Border Collie breeders listed on DOL, only about a third of them should be breeding. The rest in my opinion are registered puppy producers with no idea of what the breed should be, that have never been to a show and don't prove their dogs in work or performance.

[nabs]

I would never claim to know it all and do the best I can to educate myself. It is harder being away from the hub of it, but not impossible.

Why would I need my own bloodines - well maybe I don't need them, but maybe I would like them. Maybe I would like to breed what I think is the best Whippet I can, with the view to being able to show the progeny down the track. Isn't that why most people would like to breed? To breed the best dog they can??

I have travelled reasonable extensively in the past, but cannot afford overseas travel, and shown my dog at national specialites and all breeds shows ( different breed) so when I can travel and show I will, but why should living 750kms away from such things mean that I shouldn't be able to do something I love and have a great passion for??? Maybe I can breed a really good dog, with breeder back up, guidence, and good choices?? And well maybe I can't but how will I know.

I still stand by some people have a eye for a dog and some don't regardless of if they show.

As long as mine are the best conformationally they can be, can hunt rabbits as they should be able to and do well in obedience, agility and flyball - when we get that up and running- Then I am happy. I do not expect everyone to agree with me.

Oh and I do have some very nice Whippets already

If you have succesfully shown and trialled dogs in the past and intend to show and trial again in the future, then that is a very different scenario to the person who buys a pure bred main registered bitch or two, adds a "stud dog", gets a prefix and believes that makes them a breeder, without ever learning about the breed. Breeders do not need to show all the time and there is nothing wrong with taking several years off from the show scene when life gets in the way of showing. You also don't need to actually go to shows yourself if you can place dogs in show homes that will campaign them for you.

The breeders I don't believe should be breeding are the ones that don't understand conformation, have never competed with their dogs or have given it a go and not been able to win anything because the dogs are not good enough. I have seen people with clearly inferior pet quality dogs try showing then instead of getting better dogs they decide to breed with what they have.

Of all the Border Collie breeders listed on DOL, only about a third of them should be breeding. The rest in my opinion are registered puppy producers with no idea of what the breed should be, that have never been to a show and don't prove their dogs in work or performance.

It sure does shed things in a different light. You obviously have some understaning of basic structure etc. In this case I would certainly not class you as a BYB

[conztruct]

I recently came upon the suggestion that even if you are a registered breeder you are considered a BYB if you don't show etc.

I was rather dumbstruck. And offended.

Is it really the general concensus that any one who does not have the ability to travel around to shows continually is no better than some clueless person who lets their bitch wander the neighbourhood getting knocked up every season?

I would surely think there is more to labelling someone other than what trophies they don't have.

(I am by no means trying to bag anyone who does show, just saying that not everyones circumstances allow it.)

You should be dumbstruck and offended by that - absolutely untrue - showing has nothing to do with whether you're a good breeder or not - absolutely nothing!

There are plenty of great breeders who show and do great and there are just as many, maybe more who don't. A lot of times you'll find there's a partnership between a breeder who doesn't show with a person who loves showing and exhibits their dogs for them.

For me, if a breeder knows their breed, tests them for hereditary conditions and looks after their dogs and abides by the code of ethics then they're a good and reputable breeder.

I love showing but it's certainly a personal choice that doesn't have any bearing on your credentials as a breeder - it is a way of getting your breeding recognised and known though which is why a lot of people do it.

This might be controversial but sometimes I think that someone who specialises in a particular breed will know a lot more about it and what is quality in that breed than a poor judge who has to try and remember all the standards for many breeds and stands in the sun, rain or whatever all day and decides whether they are of good quality. No offence to the judges but I'd be going with the specialists opinion if I was looking for a pup or a dog.

[Lyla]

Well if I am considered a BYB, then so be it.

I have people that bought puppies from my first litter a few years ago who I still have regular email contact with. They keep me updated, ask for advise when necessary, and give me info they think I could benefit from. (Which I am happy to accept) One has even travelled 3 hours to come and visit me, let her dog visit his mum, and let me see in person how the pup is going. This dog has been used as the example dog at training courses, and used as a vet nurses subject for her assignments. This to me indicated that the pup did have something special to offer, and therefore I had done something right. I also think that when people stay in contact that it also means you are doing something right.

I am grounded enough to know that I don't know everything. But I don't ever pretend that I do. That is why I research, ask questions, contact breeders (of the ones who can be bothered to spare me 2 mins), visit the websites of titled breeders etc. I may not be show savvy, but I still know what a level topline is.

[RallyValley]

Well if I am considered a BYB, then so be it.

I have people that bought puppies from my first litter a few years ago who I still have regular email contact with. They keep me updated, ask for advise when necessary, and give me info they think I could benefit from. (Which I am happy to accept) One has even travelled 3 hours to come and visit me, let her dog visit his mum, and let me see in person how the pup is going. This dog has been used as the example dog at training courses, and used as a vet nurses subject for her assignments. This to me indicated that the pup did have something special to offer, and therefore I had done something right. I also think that when people stay in contact that it also means you are doing something right.

I am grounded enough to know that I don't know everything. But I don't ever pretend that I do. That is why I research, ask questions, contact breeders (of the ones who can be bothered to spare me 2 mins), visit the websites of titled breeders etc. I may not be show savvy, but I still know what a level topline is.

Congratulations, but at the end of the day if I was looking for a lab I would be getting one from proven show lines or field lines depending what I wanted the dog for. I don't think you a BYB nor do I think you are wrong breeding your dogs however I personally would not recommend to people I know to buy a pup from a registered breeder who does nothing show/sports wise with thier dogs with the exception being cases like RnL where the people live in remote areas. It has very little to do with you or the dogs but more to do with trust, I don't trust people, words come easy, title certifcates, written crituqes, inviting me to come meet your dogs at a show/trail and see them in action, now that can't be fake.

[Lyla]

Well if I am considered a BYB, then so be it.

I have people that bought puppies from my first litter a few years ago who I still have regular email contact with. They keep me updated, ask for advise when necessary, and give me info they think I could benefit from. (Which I am happy to accept) One has even travelled 3 hours to come and visit me, let her dog visit his mum, and let me see in person how the pup is going. This dog has been used as the example dog at training courses, and used as a vet nurses subject for her assignments. This to me indicated that the pup did have something special to offer, and therefore I had done something right. I also think that when people stay in contact that it also means you are doing something right.

I am grounded enough to know that I don't know everything. But I don't ever pretend that I do. That is why I research, ask questions, contact breeders (of the ones who can be bothered to spare me 2 mins), visit the websites of titled breeders etc. I may not be show savvy, but I still know what a level topline is.

Congratulations, but at the end of the day if I was looking for a lab I would be getting one from proven show lines or field lines depending what I wanted the dog for. I don't think you a BYB nor do I think you are wrong breeding your dogs however I personally would not recommend to people I know to buy a pup from a registered breeder who does nothing show/sports wise with thier dogs with the exception being cases like RnL where the people live in remote areas. It has very little to do with you or the dogs but more to do with trust, I don't trust people, words come easy, title certifcates, written crituqes, inviting me to come meet your dogs at a show/trail and see them in action, now that can't be fake.

Just because my name is on their pedigree does not change their heritage.

Edited July 9, 2010 by je2910

[Zombie Bait]

I already own a dog from a breeder that doesn't show/trial due to "distance". Sierra's grand dam and grand sire on both sides are champion show dogs. The breeder bought the sire and dam, health tested them and bred them. Sounds good in theory, is absolute rubbish in practice. Sierra is so far from the standard it's not funny. She is regularly mistaken for a RR x great Dane due to her sheer size. This breeder has pumped out litter after litter even though she continues to get such inconsistant results. RR breeders that show and have proven bloodlines will not sell to her so she has bought dogs "second hand" to get the blood lines she wants. Only found out all this after I already had Sierra, you live and you learn.

My next purebred dog will be a great dane. It could be 8-10 years before I am ready to purchase this pup but I am already researching bloodlines, breeders and what health tests are applicable etc. My future pup will be coming from parents that have been shown, health tested and critiqued by people that I trust within the breed. And more than likely this is for a dog that will never step foot in the show ring (unless I'm talked into by then )

I want to be proud to say where I got this pup and be able to recommend this breeder to others unlike Sierra's breeder.

[Bullbreedlover]

je2910

Ok so I have no idea why you posted this thread, in all honesty. And I dont really give a toss. If you dont show then that is your business. BUT DONT TELL ME I bagged your kids out when all I stated is that when my parents started out showing and breeding, they had it alot tougher than many people do these days. It is quite true. 45 years ago is a hell of a long time. wages were different. Vehicles were different. Raising children over 40 years ago was a hell of alot different to what it is now.

So you dont show.

So what!

Just remember something, if you do gain just a little knowledge from the thread you started.

You are a caretaker of your breed. Just because you own a dog doesnt give you a right to breed just because you can. Nor does it give anyone else the same. You as a breeder are responsible for maintaining true to type dogs of your breed to the breed standard to the best of your ability. If you honestly cant do that then I have to question why you own a dog. It is personal choice why people show.

Exiting thread cause I can.

[OSoSwift]

This breeder has pumped out litter after litter even though she continues to get such inconsistant results

This is the breeders problem, not the fact she doesn't show or trial due to distance.

She is not breeding with a purpose or to better the breed.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Rommi n Lewis

[Zombie Bait]

This breeder has pumped out litter after litter even though she continues to get such inconsistant results

This is the breeders problem, not the fact she doesn't show or trial due to distance.

She is not breeding with a purpose or to better the breed.

My point is: She has no way of comparing these dogs to other examples of the breed in the real world. RnL - I have no problem with what you have written, you are a previous show/trialling person who due to current circumstances (ie living very far away) do not have current access to shows/trials. You have stated that you train with these dogs to such a level that if you were able to trial, these dogs would already have a firm background in what to do. You also sound like someone who is actually in contact with other whippet breeders and have a goal in mind of why you want to breed (ie furthering your lines). I dont agree with breeding untested stock (health, conformation or work ethic) just for the hell of it and because you know you will make money off of it. Unfortunately Sierra's breeder falls into that catorgory - breeding purely for the pet market and not to better the breed. Unfortunately I was uneducated in the world of registered breeders and thought I was doing the right thing by purchasing my pup from a registered breeder. Next time it will be a registered ethical breeder that has history with my breed of choice - either showing or trialling.