Who Should Breed?

[shortstep]

BTW NZ is no longer using dogs at the abattoirs. Is this the same for dairies? I think so but not sure. Animal rights and all that.

Are you seriously serious?????

If the animal rights have stopped farmers using dogs on dairy farms, then they would of stopped using them on Sheep stations.

Somehow I dont think so.

Well yes I am serious. The abattoirs were hassled for years, threaten with boycotts, the usual stuff, they gave up and got rid of their dogs. It was not a law, but the pressure was so great they really had no choice. I seem to remember that many/some/a few of the dairy farmers followed shortly there after, even briefly marketing their milk as from cows free of harassment of dogs. Like the egg producers and the battery cages.

I am sure that the pressure will turn to dogs used on sheep and paddock cattle soon. Once the Unis take on the use of livestock dogs as an animal rights agenda and make it their own, you have got to be looking down the not too far off road of big changes. There has already been some uni studies on the stress level of dogged sheep and the more recent uni study on the care and training of sheepdogs, not to forget the other uni study which seemed to be more of a census of farm dogs nation wide (know thy enemy). The move towards banning of livestock dogs will be after the banning of at least a few show dog breeds I think. Will come as a country wide effort promoted by the uni's, animal rights groups and the government. Attack will be 2 fold, welfare issue for livestock, welfare issues for the dogs themselves. All we need now is the TV doco 'Horror on the Paddocks' made by the drama queen of animal rights. Add in a few interviews taken at the local ANKC herding trial, such as "My dog loves to play with sheep, it is good exercise and flossing with wool is very effective and inexpensive dental hygiene". And, "We come every weekend to enjoy the sport of herding on ducks, then we go play ball in the park. Makes for a full day of fun for my dog". Then some video of a farmer with his shock collar. Yes, that should be about all it will take.

You know the drill, just the same as the efforts being used against show breeders here in Australia and the UK. BTW has the standard here been altered for the bulldog yet? Did we just copy what the UK did trying to pacify the Australian Uni involved, the UK RSPCA and UK government? Do you think 'showies' will breed the bull dog towards the different standard?

If the KC breeders refuse to breed towards the less extreme features, it will be interesting to see how long it is before the government takes action. Maybe in 5 years or so? pass laws that it is a crime to breed dogs with structural deformities. Perhaps even prosecute some breeders for intentionally producing pups that have deformities. Then go for the kill and ban the breed due to welfare issues caused by breeders that the government (though education and breeding laws) have been unable to prevent. I am guessing they will give it about 10 years to 'fix' the breed and then they will start banning.

Am I serious? Aaaa yep.

Edited July 7, 2010 by shortstep

[supercharged]

I have had a judge ask me after the show if a level bite was acceptable in my breed.........um hell no !

Sometimes a top breeder can take things too far and be breeding outside the standard and get away with it because of who he/she is and still have kennel blindness. Then they dig themselves such a big hole and push everyone else away and few other breeders will deal with them so when they need an outcross they have to go to "jo blow" down the street and use his dog! All they have to do is turn up to the shows they are entered in and they have won already because of who they are not what is on the end of the lead. That is what upsets me about showing, the politics

As long as I am critical of my breeding, and I converse with other breeders and share photos or in person visits then no showing is NOT the be all and end all.

S

2 words: kennel blindness

Sometimes you can think your dogs are the bees knees... until put them in the show ring and they compete against other dogs.

I'm not saying that you have to show to be able to tell a good dog from a bad one, but it can be easy to slip into the thought that your dogs are 'wonderful' because you haven't been placed last in the line or refused at every show you go to.

[Lyla]

Where in this thread has anyone said that your dogs are crap???

They havent. Well I havent. You asked for peoples opinions. What more do you want?

Regardless of whether or not you show, breed, trial or whatever you do with your dogs you are the caretakers of the breed.

if you choose to breed then it is not all about just putting one dog to another as well as doing health tests. It is about preseving breed type, soundness, characterisitics, quality, style. All those and more.The standards were written for a purpose

If you dont like the standards of the breeds you have then OK that is fine. If you dont want to show, then OK that is fine. No one is holding a gun to your head and saying, "you must show your stock"

and 3 kids is not necessarily a heap more work. Hell my Mum and Dad had it alot tougher than many when they were raising us. Actually they had the three of us all under 5 years old, but I thought the 10 years old sounded good.

I cannot find anywhere where I have said that I don't like the breed standard, and nor do I breed to them. Nor have I said that I mate my dog to any old dog. YOU are making the assumption that because someone doesn't show that they are clueless and ignorant.

Big deal if you win shows. At no point have you mentioned anything about the care and well being of your dogs or the placement of puppies. I am looking at the overall picture. If you think that breed standard and showing is all that counts, does that mean that if the dogs were kept in a questionable way at home, but had a level of success in the ring, then thats good enough for you? I would think not. There are other factors. I know of one breeder who breeds within the guidelines, and only uses lines from a certain show kennel, yet these people breed litter on top of litter, year round. Does that make a good breeder because their dogs look right?

I also don't see your point about bagging my kids, and telling me how great your parents are. How would you know what my situation is anyway? Off topic.

[Lyla]

I have had a judge ask me after the show if a level bite was acceptable in my breed.........um hell no !

Sometimes a top breeder can take things too far and be breeding outside the standard and get away with it because of who he/she is and still have kennel blindness. Then they dig themselves such a big hole and push everyone else away and few other breeders will deal with them so when they need an outcross they have to go to "jo blow" down the street and use his dog! All they have to do is turn up to the shows they are entered in and they have won already because of who they are not what is on the end of the lead. That is what upsets me about showing, the politics

As long as I am critical of my breeding, and I converse with other breeders and share photos or in person visits then no showing is NOT the be all and end all.S

2 words: kennel blindness

Sometimes you can think your dogs are the bees knees... until put them in the show ring and they compete against other dogs.

I'm not saying that you have to show to be able to tell a good dog from a bad one, but it can be easy to slip into the thought that your dogs are 'wonderful' because you haven't been placed last in the line or refused at every show you go to.

Interesting point!

I wondered if those with a well known name who show frequently would be favoured over others, especially unknowns.

At the end of the day the judges are human, and the winner is the dog they like. Under a different judge with a different perception, that same dog may not have won. There is no black and white checklist, it is interpretation.

[idigadog]

Without wanting to get into a debate, we breed and haven't set foot into a show ring for many, many years.

Our dogs are bred for harness work. Not only do they have all the necessary health tests performed, but they also have to prove themselves out on the trails before we even consider using one of them for a litter.

To be honest, our dogs would be laughed out of the ring because they don't have 'the look' that is normal for show Sibes these days. Does this bother me? Nope! I know my dogs are of sound conformation and temperaments and can do the job that they were originally bred for.

We have recently had one of our 'racing boys' used at stud by a show/racing breeder. Obviously we are doing something right and our dog's reputations speak for themselves without having a judge decide that for us.

Does it make us a BYB? I certainly don't think so. Do I have anything against those who show their dogs? Not at all. If that's your thing, fill your boots I say

[Lyla]

Without wanting to get into a debate, we breed and haven't set foot into a show ring for many, many years.

Our dogs are bred for harness work. Not only do they have all the necessary health tests performed, but they also have to prove themselves out on the trails before we even consider using one of them for a litter.

To be honest, our dogs would be laughed out of the ring because they don't have 'the look' that is normal for show Sibes these days. Does this bother me? Nope! I know my dogs are of sound conformation and temperaments and can do the job that they were originally bred for.

We have recently had one of our 'racing boys' used at stud by a show/racing breeder. Obviously we are doing something right and our dog's reputations speak for themselves without having a judge decide that for us.

Does it make us a BYB? I certainly don't think so. Do I have anything against those who show their dogs? Not at all. If that's your thing, fill your boots I say

Exactly.

This thread wasn't meant to be showies vs non showies. All I am saying is that not showing does not automatically exclude your dogs from having quality, which you have proved in your case.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Without wanting to get into a debate, we breed and haven't set foot into a show ring for many, many years.

Our dogs are bred for harness work. Not only do they have all the necessary health tests performed, but they also have to prove themselves out on the trails before we even consider using one of them for a litter.

To be honest, our dogs would be laughed out of the ring because they don't have 'the look' that is normal for show Sibes these days. Does this bother me? Nope! I know my dogs are of sound conformation and temperaments and can do the job that they were originally bred for.

We have recently had one of our 'racing boys' used at stud by a show/racing breeder. Obviously we are doing something right and our dog's reputations speak for themselves without having a judge decide that for us.

Does it make us a BYB? I certainly don't think so. Do I have anything against those who show their dogs? Not at all. If that's your thing, fill your boots I say

your dogs are bred for purpose and you test them against other bred for purpose dogs (i went to your website) so you are measuring them against others. that is all that people are saying, not that shows are the be all and end all, but that it is better to prove your dogs againat others of the same type

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Without wanting to get into a debate, we breed and haven't set foot into a show ring for many, many years.

Our dogs are bred for harness work. Not only do they have all the necessary health tests performed, but they also have to prove themselves out on the trails before we even consider using one of them for a litter.

To be honest, our dogs would be laughed out of the ring because they don't have 'the look' that is normal for show Sibes these days. Does this bother me? Nope! I know my dogs are of sound conformation and temperaments and can do the job that they were originally bred for.

We have recently had one of our 'racing boys' used at stud by a show/racing breeder. Obviously we are doing something right and our dog's reputations speak for themselves without having a judge decide that for us.

Does it make us a BYB? I certainly don't think so. Do I have anything against those who show their dogs? Not at all. If that's your thing, fill your boots I say

Exactly.

This thread wasn't meant to be showies vs non showies. All I am saying is that not showing does not automatically exclude your dogs from having quality, which you have proved in your case.

no, see my post above, the dogs are tested against dogs of the same type, its not proving your case

Edited July 8, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[idigadog]

no, see my post above, the dogs are tested against dogs of the same type, its not proving your case

Not always though. We compete against many show dogs as well as purpose bred Alaskan Huskies as well as other breeds like GSP's. You can do that in racing! In fact, there are very minimal racing line bred Siberians in Australia which to me is a shame.

[RallyValley]

Personally I would never buy/breed from a dog who didn't have dual show/working titled lines because in my breed thats not hard to come by at all. I could maybe justify the dog not having a working (retrieving) title if it had some other titles that proved it had the intelligence (obidience titles) stamina (endurance titles) agility (agility titles) and potential working ability (tracking titles, working tests).

To me the thing I am trying uphold is the name of the breed, not any show or working prizes, for over 200 years my breed has stood strong and stayed true to type. People spent countless hours developing the breed orginally and then ensuring it's wellbeing since. I am given the privlage of benefitng from thier hard work and it is not a responsibility I take lightly, so, if I found out people were breeding my breed without proving thier working ability or at least talking to other breeders (we are a small breed, we all of each other) about structure and potential then yes I would equate that with BYBing no matter if they did every health test under the sun and had good results from them.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

no, see my post above, the dogs are tested against dogs of the same type, its not proving your case

Not always though. We compete against many show dogs as well as purpose bred Alaskan Huskies as well as other breeds like GSP's. You can do that in racing! In fact, there are very minimal racing line bred Siberians in Australia which to me is a shame.

i dont think people are saying breeders must compete all the time but you (in in this example) test against similar types of dogs and are successful, therfore you know you are on the right path to achieve what you want to produce a racing line siberian.

if you had never raced you wouldnt know whether your dogs were any good in that type of competition. the same goes for dogs bred to the type show standard. if breeders are breeding to the ANKC standard then they need to compete to know whether they are on the right track. because not all breeders are judges the standard needs to be interpreted using a common measure and that is what judges do.

[Lyla]

And still no one has adressed the other points I raised eg: ethics, welfare, scrutiny at homing a puppy, etc...

Does no one think these things count?

Aren't these the things that are meant to distinguish ethical registered breeders from BYB?

[oakway]

The standard doesn't change, ever. So if someone knows the standard, and breeds according to the standard and their dogs look like the standard says they are supposed to look, then why do they need to show?

Well wouldn't that be which way you interpret the standard.

Many people breed to the standard and bring their dogs to shows and wonder why they are on the end of the line.

[nabs]

Why in gods name would someone just want to breed for the sake of it? We breed when we want our next show dog. We breed quality healthy dogs to the standard. We breed to IMPROVE the breed. To breed better with each generation. We don't breed to supply dogs to a world where there are thousands of dogs already not being properly looked after.

We keep what we think is the best. Other pups in the litter are of quality (often very high show quality but we cannot show them all) are carefully homed and no expense is spared on the rearing, caring of these dogs We don't let our pups go before 10 weeks of age. We put a lot of work into planning our bloodlines, rearing the litters for weeks on end 24/7.

There are heaps of pedigree dogs available form quality show stock. Why add more to the mix. In your opinion you might be breeding quality dogs but most of the time it is probably only your opinion. Seen plenty of these so called non show breeders churn out utter rubbish.

Of my soap box now and prepared to be flamed but tough it is my opinion!

[shortstep]

no, see my post above, the dogs are tested against dogs of the same type, its not proving your case

Not always though. We compete against many show dogs as well as purpose bred Alaskan Huskies as well as other breeds like GSP's. You can do that in racing! In fact, there are very minimal racing line bred Siberians in Australia which to me is a shame.

I am sure you are aware of Dr Bragg, his dogs are awsome.

http://www.seppalakennels.com/

His web site is full of interesting information, much of it to do with breeding.

He has also written some great stuff. Always thought provocating

http://www.seppalakennels.com/jeffreys-articles.htm

Registry Without Breeds: A Thought Experiment

The Survival of Historic Sleddog Breeds

The Place of the Recreational Dog Musher

Exploitative versus Developmental Breeding Methods

Sleddog Ethics: Responsible Sleddog Breeding, Training and Ownership

Population Genetics in Practice: Principles for the Breeder

The Genetic Tide: Will it Leave Us High and Dry?

The Genetic Tide Continues to Swell

And years ago when he first struggled with trying to breed effective sled dogs in the Candian Kennel Club

'Purebred Dog Breeds into the Twenty-First Century:

Achieving Genetic Health for Our Dogs'

http://www.netpets.com/dogs/healthspa/bragg.html#toc

He is actually a really good example of breeding top quality dogs and has nothing to do with show ring nor is he even in the Kennel club, which is back to the topic at hand.

BTW the reason he is not in the kennel club, (if I recall correctly) is, becasue they would not register the Siberians he collected in Siberia to imporve the breeding stock in the KC. Evedently the gene pool of Sibs is based on just a couple of dogs and they are very inbred. These Siberian Siberians were not considered to be Siberians in Canada because they were not registered in a FCI approved kennel club...LOL

Edited July 8, 2010 by shortstep

[ellz]

Something to consider.

In an ideal world of dog breeding...........

A breed standard is a blueprint (the people/club/organisation who made the blueprint are the architects).

The breeders' role is to produce dogs which conform to the blueprint (the breeder is the builder).

The judges' role is to oversee this and to give their opinion of how the breeder is going (the judge is the council inspector).

Joe Q can't just go and build a building and hope that it conforms and that the council won't get stroppy with him. And so it applies to dog breeding.

[idigadog]

i dont think people are saying breeders must compete all the time but you (in in this example) test against similar types of dogs and are successful, therfore you know you are on the right path to achieve what you want to produce a racing line siberian.

if you had never raced you wouldnt know whether your dogs were any good in that type of competition. the same goes for dogs bred to the type show standard. if breeders are breeding to the ANKC standard then they need to compete to know whether they are on the right track. because not all breeders are judges the standard needs to be interpreted using a common measure and that is what judges do.

True. I understand totally what you are saying. I would love for a judge to come to a race though to actually see dogs that are 'outside the square' so to speak.

And still no one has adressed the other points I raised eg: ethics, welfare, scrutiny at homing a puppy, etc...

Does no one think these things count?

Aren't these the things that are meant to distinguish ethical registered breeders from BYB?

Absolutely, most definately all of the above things count. I would consider myself to be very hard when it comes to placing puppies in homes hence why we have only ever sold two pups to a racing home in NZ, the rest have always been kept between our kennel and that of our co-breeder.

The welfare of my dogs is probably evident for anyone who has seen them or been to our kennel. I don't think there would be anyone that we have dealt with over the last 14 years that could argue with that.

[idigadog]

I am sure you are aware of Dr Bragg, his dogs are awsome.

http://www.seppalakennels.com/

He is actually a really good example of breeding top quality dogs and has nothing to do show ring nor is even in the Kennel club, which is back to the topic at hand.

Exactly! Though there is always the debate between those who consider Seppala's not to be Siberians and vice-versa

[dancinbcs]

Why in gods name would someone just want to breed for the sake of it? We breed when we want our next show dog. We breed quality healthy dogs to the standard. We breed to IMPROVE the breed. To breed better with each generation. We don't breed to supply dogs to a world where there are thousands of dogs already not being properly looked after.

We keep what we think is the best. Other pups in the litter are of quality (often very high show quality but we cannot show them all) are carefully homed and no expense is spared on the rearing, caring of these dogs We don't let our pups go before 10 weeks of age. We put a lot of work into planning our bloodlines, rearing the litters for weeks on end 24/7.

There are heaps of pedigree dogs available form quality show stock. Why add more to the mix. In your opinion you might be breeding quality dogs but most of the time it is probably only your opinion. Seen plenty of these so called non show breeders churn out utter rubbish.

Of my soap box now and prepared to be flamed but tough it is my opinion!

Great post.

I personally don't know of any serious show, performance or working dog breeder who does not do all this. The majority of these dogs are reared in optimum conditions or they have no hope of developing into quality show specimens or performing the work they were bred for.

It is the breeders that don't show, trial or work their dogs in any field that are more likely to raise puppies in sub-standard conditions. They tend to breed many more litters with no other goal than selling puppies. More puppies means less choice of buyers and dogs more likley to end up in rescue.

The issue should not be show vs work or show vs performance, but breeding dogs for a reason vs breeding just to produce puppies.

[OSoSwift]

So due to the fact I live 750kms from our main shows, have two young children and run a beef cattle farm, I can't breed dogs as I will have no idea what to breed for as I won't be showing, so therefore my dogs will be a mockery of their breed standard??

Because I am unable to show at the moment I should not be allowed to breed as even though I would be keeping one out of the litter, I really have no reason to breed because that puppy may not get shown for a while if at all?

Also because I don't show or compete in a dog sport at this point in time, my puppies may be raised in substandard conditions. Even if I have excellent homes lined up for the babies, offer and stand by full breeder support for the life of the puppies, I am breeding just for the money not for the fact I am breeding to keep a puppy for myself to continue and create my own lines and thus am breeding towars what I think is a WHippet as close to the standard as I can, and I am aiming to improve on each generation.

I am over time - if I do indeed breed my dogs - going to go very slightly insane as I will be breeding rubbish that barely resembles my breed, but will think it the epitome of the Whippet.

Whilst I agree not everyone should breed and some do have "kennel blindness" I do not agree that the only way to prove your dogs worth and your ability to have an eye for a dog is only proven by sticking your dog in the ring. I have seen people showing that I believe have kennel blindness, and a couple of dogs that should never have been in the ring - but overheard one exhibitor stating that the particular bitch she had on the end of her lead was (X Breed) perfection. I thought it was less than average and more than one person shared my view.

In my situation I love showing and trialling my dogs but at this point in my life it is not feasable to do so. I train my dogs to trialling standard and they do all the exercises that would be expected in a trial and I train them as though I am aiming for a trial even though it may be years before I actually get them to one. I train agility so if the day comes, they can go and be competitive. Surely if I am breeding with the bigger picture in my mind, I know which direction I want to go and I want to produce dogs that will do well, under the guidence of my breeder, conform to breed standard and do everything, but actually get to a show, I am more than a Registered BYB???

I think that some replies in this thread are extremely arrogant.