Who Should Breed?

[Lyla]

Plus if you aren't out reminiding yourself of the starndard and having other people who judge that standard double checking your observations it may become easy to warp the standard to what you have, not what it is.

This may be true of some people and I know of a breeder that did have warped ideas of the standard and was still showing with mixed success. If you show often enough, and chase points you can still title animals.

Yes people who do not show can have warped ideas, but maybe that is because they are still breeding for what they believe is the prefect interpretation of the standard and not following the current trends in the ring? Then their stock becomes far removed from what is being shown today as such.

Why couldn't somone like me who has to travel vasts distances to show, so therefore isn't at this pint in my life, not as capable of breeding a very good dog as a person that shows?? I keep myslef up to date with what is happening and what dogs are winning, just don't get in the ring myself.

Either a person has an eye for a dog or they don't regardless of wether they show!

Agree!!

[Bullbreedlover]

So you are saying that those who don't show are so full of themselves that they are nut cakes, but you think your opinion is better than the judges??

Isn't this a bit contradictory? Or when you are a showie its ok to make your own rules??

I am a judge

Every single Breed that I have owned over the years I have judged over the years.

This is my opinion(obviously)

I am not saying that those who dont show are nut cases. But yes many do lose the plot.

There are many Bulldog breeders out there who do not show. They have no idea what they are doing within their breeding program and generally dont give a damn what they are doing to the breed.

Have I made it pretty clear now?

[shortstep]

Shortstep

My hubby and I have owned and shown(with huge success) an exceptionally well bred Kelpie back in NZ bred by a much respected breeder whom we also worked and whom was an excellent cattle worker.

I have judged the breed and know a little bit about them

Oh and by the way he had lovely show conformation, worked all day(and I mean hard work, in summer and winter) and he also had the correct ruff and brush tail.

Me too!! I had a lovely working dog that had perfect show conformation, a real beauty. Even had those big baby doll eyes and the tipped ears. Unfortunately I never showed the dog to prove this. I have had many show breeders tell me that I do not know enough about a show dogs to say if the dog I had would make a champion. However I was assured by these show breeder that they do know good working dogs when they see it and that most of their show dogs are also terrific working dogs. Just wish they would take them to the bigger trials so I could see them in action.

Did you trial you kelpie? You must have had thousands of cattle to work those long hours year round like that.

So yes, I will never question the knowledge of show breeders when it comes to top quality working dogs. I know my place, as I have those weedy working dogs that can not hold a candle to good show dog on the paddock. Thanks for reminding me LOL

Edited July 7, 2010 by shortstep

[Lyla]

So you are saying that those who don't show are so full of themselves that they are nut cakes, but you think your opinion is better than the judges??

Isn't this a bit contradictory? Or when you are a showie its ok to make your own rules??

I am a judge

Every single Breed that I have owned over the years I have judged over the years.

This is my opinion(obviously)

I am not saying that those who dont show are nut cases. But yes many do lose the plot.

There are many Bulldog breeders out there who do not show. They have no idea what they are doing within their breeding program and generally dont give a damn what they are doing to the breed.

Have I made it pretty clear now?

But if you breed AND show, couldn't that mean that you may (not saying will) favour dogs that are like your own, rather than others? Just a thought.

And yes, you have made it clear. I am not a nut case, but will inevitably lose the plot because I don't show my dogs.

If you or anyone else would like to volunteer to come and look after my 3 young kids some afternoons and weekends, I would gladly take my dogs to training, and weekend shows. At least that would prove that I do "give a damn about what I am doing to my breed".

[Bullbreedlover]

Did you trial you kelpie? You must have had thousands of cattle to work those long hours year round like that.

So yes, I will never question the knowledge of show breeders when it comes to top quality working dogs. I know my place, as I have those weedy working dogs that canot hald a candleto good show dog on the paddock. Thanks for reminding me LOL

We worked on dairy farms back in NZ. And raised our own Bulls and sheep while working on those farms.

And yes he did work quite a few hundred bovines a year. The smallest farm he worked on had 500 cows plus young replacements and Bulls. He worked on two farms during one year with over 1100 milkers alone on hill country farms

No we didnt trial him. When you work 7 days a week most weeks and only get time off for a dog show LOL there was no time for anything else. But I do love the trials. My hubbys uncle has a Kelpie which he does agility with.

SS Many show dogs can not perform the job they were bred for. That is quite evident by being around the show scene for many years.

A dog show is a judges opinion. Showies pay for that opinion. That is because they can and want to.

[Bullbreedlover]

So you are saying that those who don't show are so full of themselves that they are nut cakes, but you think your opinion is better than the judges??

Isn't this a bit contradictory? Or when you are a showie its ok to make your own rules??

I am a judge

Every single Breed that I have owned over the years I have judged over the years.

This is my opinion(obviously)

I am not saying that those who dont show are nut cases. But yes many do lose the plot.

There are many Bulldog breeders out there who do not show. They have no idea what they are doing within their breeding program and generally dont give a damn what they are doing to the breed.

Have I made it pretty clear now?

But if you breed AND show, couldn't that mean that you may (not saying will) favour dogs that are like your own, rather than others? Just a thought.

And yes, you have made it clear. I am not a nut case, but will inevitably lose the plot because I don't show my dogs.

If you or anyone else would like to volunteer to come and look after my 3 young kids some afternoons and weekends, I would gladly take my dogs to training, and weekend shows. At least that would prove that I do "give a damn about what I am doing to my breed".

I separated from my first hubby, raised a young child by myself and showed dogs. My parents had us three kids under 10 and showed dogs and did so for many years. And of course you favour dogs that are like your own. Because you have bred to a certain type. It is peoples interpretation of the breed standards which determines the type of dog they favour.

"Either a person has an eye for a dog or they dont regardless of whether or not they show"

[shortstep]

Did you trial you kelpie? You must have had thousands of cattle to work those long hours year round like that.

So yes, I will never question the knowledge of show breeders when it comes to top quality working dogs. I know my place, as I have those weedy working dogs that canot hald a candleto good show dog on the paddock. Thanks for reminding me LOL

We worked on dairy farms back in NZ. And raised our own Bulls and sheep while working on those farms.

And yes he did work quite a few hundred bovines a year. The smallest farm he worked on had 500 cows plus young replacements and Bulls. He worked on two farms during one year with over 1100 milkers alone on hill country farms

No we didnt trial him. When you work 7 days a week most weeks and only get time off for a dog show LOL there was no time for anything else. But I do love the trials. My hubbys uncle has a Kelpie which he does agility with.

SS Many show dogs can not perform the job they were bred for. That is quite evident by being around the show scene for many years.

A dog show is a judges opinion. Showies pay for that opinion. That is because they can and want to.

Those dairy cows are hard work.

[whippets]

LOL Well this is a loaded question and will depend on who you ask.

If you ask show breeder, who has invested years of study and effort in to getting that perfect look, then they will think that this is important.

Ask a man on the farm who has kelpies to move his sheep and he will think that show ring has no impact on a what makes a good dog.

Ask a pet owner and most would rate temperament as most important. The finer points of a 'good' show dog would be lost on them.

Ask a hunter and a dog that is not gun shy and does his job well is more important than show ring points.

So what do I think.

For most dog owners the goal of near perfect show ring traits, is of little or no value. Fit for function, be it work, play or companion is far more important to most people.

Before someone says that without breeding to the standard dogs would not look like their breed, this is total bunk. Look at the working sheep dogs, kelpies and border collies. They are unmistakable and instantly recognizable for the breed that they are. They look just like they looked 100 years ago. This is what it really means to say that form follows function. The dogs bodies are molded by the work over many generations. It is far easier to demonstrate that that the show ring models have wandered away from what the breed did look like prior to being bred for show ring.

Or a racing greyhound that has won over 100k in a short career and won the waterloo cup (don't know if they even still have that coursing prize) yet wouldn't win a place ribbon in the show ring. How ironic is that.

[Bullbreedlover]

Before you make any other smart comments SS

Have you ever farmed in NZ hill country?

Oh...obviously not

Otherwise you wouldnt make such a stupid comment.

It wasnt just the cows that he got in for milking in places where you could hardly ride a motorbike into. He hung off Bulls tails and noses, he got the sheep in from hills.

oh thats right. Australia doesnt have hills

Edited July 7, 2010 by stonebridge

[shortstep]

Before you make any other smart comments SS

Have you ever farmed in NZ hill country?

Oh...obviously not

Otherwise you wouldnt make such a stupid comment.

It wasnt just the cows that he got in for milking in places where you could hardly ride a motorbike into. He hung off Bulls tails and noses, he got the sheep in from hills.

oh thats right. Australia doesnt have hills

Smart remarks?

Hills in OZ, no not really. Well not like the mountains I am used to anyway.

I have lived in several countries. Seen some real hills. Work dogs on real hills too.

BTW NZ is no longer using dogs at the abattoirs. Is this the same for dairies? I think so but not sure. Animal rights and all that.

[poodlefan]

Is showing the be all and end all of being a good breeder? Of course not.

On the other hand, if you breed purebred dogs and never take them off the property, trial them or have others do this with dogs you've bred, how on earth do you know if what you're producing is up to scratch? Some people can pull this off but not all.

Good pet dogs are sound, of good temperament and should conform to their breed standard as closely as possible. Strangely good show and sports dogs require the same attributes for the most part.

The idea that show breeders can't produce good pet dogs is simply wrong. That's what most dogs bred by such breeders end up being anyway.

[Lyla]

So you are saying that those who don't show are so full of themselves that they are nut cakes, but you think your opinion is better than the judges??

Isn't this a bit contradictory? Or when you are a showie its ok to make your own rules??

I am a judge

Every single Breed that I have owned over the years I have judged over the years.

This is my opinion(obviously)

I am not saying that those who dont show are nut cases. But yes many do lose the plot.

There are many Bulldog breeders out there who do not show. They have no idea what they are doing within their breeding program and generally dont give a damn what they are doing to the breed.

Have I made it pretty clear now?

But if you breed AND show, couldn't that mean that you may (not saying will) favour dogs that are like your own, rather than others? Just a thought.

And yes, you have made it clear. I am not a nut case, but will inevitably lose the plot because I don't show my dogs.

If you or anyone else would like to volunteer to come and look after my 3 young kids some afternoons and weekends, I would gladly take my dogs to training, and weekend shows. At least that would prove that I do "give a damn about what I am doing to my breed".

I separated from my first hubby, raised a young child by myself and showed dogs. My parents had us three kids under 10 and showed dogs and did so for many years. And of course you favour dogs that are like your own. Because you have bred to a certain type. It is peoples interpretation of the breed standards which determines the type of dog they favour.

"Either a person has an eye for a dog or they dont regardless of whether or not they show"

3 kids is a thousand times more work than one. Especially when one is still a baby.

And when you do try to stay in the loop and get advice from people who are fortunate enough to be able to do a variety of things ie showing and breeding, they just turn their noses up at you. Sorry for not making the cut, and I better write my dogs off too, because if they haven't been in the show ring they mustn't be worth squat.

[OSoSwift]

Oi you - I live on a hill!! Well okay its a little one and nothing like NZ mountains - but I do live on a hill!

[lovemesideways]

Oi you - I live on a hill!! Well okay its a little one and nothing like NZ mountains - but I do live on a hill!

[Shaar]

2 words: kennel blindness

Sometimes you can think your dogs are the bees knees... until put them in the show ring and they compete against other dogs.

I'm not saying that you have to show to be able to tell a good dog from a bad one, but it can be easy to slip into the thought that your dogs are 'wonderful' because you haven't been placed last in the line or refused at every show you go to.

[Lyla]

I did think that out of this exercise I would have gained more than "my dogs must be crap because I haven't paid someone to tell me otherwise".

I also thought that there might be other things that came into consideration' eg:

* breeder ethics / intention to do the right thing

* happiness of the dog / family interaction

* living conditions of the dog

* researching pedigrees and complimentary matches for breeding

* providing an accurate information on the breed, and educating puppy owners on the reality of breed traits

* health screening for breeding plus usual vet visits

* appropriate diet for the individual dogs

* "after sales service"

etc, etc...

Surely adhering to breed standard is only a basis, and not the only relevant criteria.

I don't think I have "kennel blindness" as I don't own half a dozen dogs bred by myself. I only have one. I consider that she is a better example of the breed than her mother, and isn't that what we are aiming for? For many months I didn't think this pup was going to be any good, but at 8 months old she is beginning to come out of her "ugly teenage" phase, and has some lovely traits. If anything I think I am over critical. I do not look at them and see perfection, I see their good points and I see what could be better.

For those who are not in the show scene, the best they can do is ask for advice, visit the "good" breeders websites to see what an acceptable specimen looks like, and try to keep learning, as I believe that no one knows everything. I do find it difficult when you are shunned purely because you aren't in the gang, despite whatever else is going on, or however good your intentions are.

It might get more people in the ring if they were not written off before they have even been given a chance.

[dancinbcs]

Dogs should only be bred for a purpose and breeding stock should be proven for that purpose. If they are bred for work, dog sports, obedience, etc then showing is not a priority and I don't think anyone would say that serious work and performance breeders are BYB or puppy farmers. Their dogs still have to be sound in conformation to perform their required tasks, so assessment in the showring is not necessary.

If you are not just breeding for performance then yes, proving your dogs in the showring is a must. Not necessarily every dog and not necessarily showing forever, but I think breeders should prove they know what they are doing by being able to produce at least some successful show dogs. Otherwise you are just breeding to produce pet puppies, not to improve the breed.

There are far too many breeders in my breed that do all the health tests, etc but have no idea about conformation or performance and just breed anything to anything to produce pretty puppies. Usually in the so called "rare colours". Some of the dogs they breed with are nowhere near the quality of dogs we sell as pets, but they have no idea about type, soundness or quality and breed generation after generation of sub-standard dogs.

[Bullbreedlover]

Oi you - I live on a hill!! Well okay its a little one and nothing like NZ mountains - but I do live on a hill!

oh sorry RnL

and I just remembered there is a mountain/hill in Aus.

Its called the Great Dividing range.

[Bullbreedlover]

I did think that out of this exercise I would have gained more than "my dogs must be crap because I haven't paid someone to tell me otherwise".

I also thought that there might be other things that came into consideration' eg:

* breeder ethics / intention to do the right thing

* happiness of the dog / family interaction

* living conditions of the dog

* researching pedigrees and complimentary matches for breeding

* providing an accurate information on the breed, and educating puppy owners on the reality of breed traits

* health screening for breeding plus usual vet visits

* appropriate diet for the individual dogs

* "after sales service"

etc, etc...

Surely adhering to breed standard is only a basis, and not the only relevant criteria.

I don't think I have "kennel blindness" as I don't own half a dozen dogs bred by myself. I only have one. I consider that she is a better example of the breed than her mother, and isn't that what we are aiming for? For many months I didn't think this pup was going to be any good, but at 8 months old she is beginning to come out of her "ugly teenage" phase, and has some lovely traits. If anything I think I am over critical. I do not look at them and see perfection, I see their good points and I see what could be better.

For those who are not in the show scene, the best they can do is ask for advice, visit the "good" breeders websites to see what an acceptable specimen looks like, and try to keep learning, as I believe that no one knows everything. I do find it difficult when you are shunned purely because you aren't in the gang, despite whatever else is going on, or however good your intentions are.

It might get more people in the ring if they were not written off before they have even been given a chance.

Where in this thread has anyone said that your dogs are crap???

They havent. Well I havent. You asked for peoples opinions. What more do you want?

Regardless of whether or not you show, breed, trial or whatever you do with your dogs you are the caretakers of the breed.

if you choose to breed then it is not all about just putting one dog to another as well as doing health tests. It is about preseving breed type, soundness, characterisitics, quality, style. All those and more.

The standards were written for a purpose

If you dont like the standards of the breeds you have then OK that is fine. If you dont want to show, then OK that is fine. No one is holding a gun to your head and saying, "you must show your stock"

and 3 kids is not necessarily a heap more work. Hell my Mum and Dad had it alot tougher than many when they were raising us. Actually they had the three of us all under 5 years old, but I thought the 10 years old sounded good.

Edited July 7, 2010 by stonebridge

[Bullbreedlover]

Before you make any other smart comments SS

Have you ever farmed in NZ hill country?

Oh...obviously not

Otherwise you wouldnt make such a stupid comment.

It wasnt just the cows that he got in for milking in places where you could hardly ride a motorbike into. He hung off Bulls tails and noses, he got the sheep in from hills.

oh thats right. Australia doesnt have hills

Smart remarks?

Hills in OZ, no not really. Well not like the mountains I am used to anyway.

I have lived in several countries. Seen some real hills. Work dogs on real hills too.

BTW NZ is no longer using dogs at the abattoirs. Is this the same for dairies? I think so but not sure. Animal rights and all that.

Are you seriously serious?????

If the animal rights have stopped farmers using dogs on dairy farms, then they would of stopped using them on Sheep stations.

Somehow I dont think so.