Is Banning The Selling Of Puppies From Pet Shops The Solution?

[Gayle.]

The best solution?? Fight fire with fire- ADVERTISE AND SELL pedigree animals. More breeders need to get over themselves and need to realise that they represent the entire ANKC membership whenever they deal with potential puppy purchasers. Even if they get the biggest idiot enquiring- maintain composure and a professional attitude.

I constantly cringe at the behavior of fellow exhibitors at shows, 'pet' expos etc who clearly don't have the patience for dealing with the public.

When I got unsuitable enquiries about my pups, I just explains that I don't feel the breed is suited to their needs and suggested they research a few other breeds etc but thank you very much for being interested and for doing the best thing by contacting a registered breeder.

Many people still hold the belief that breeders of pure breed dogs are snobs and the dogs are too expensive etc. We need to work on that myth and debunk it!!

You do not have to sell a pup to everyone but please think about how you are representing the pure breed fraternity when dealing with puppy enquiries and be pleased that the person has gone to the effort of contacting a reputable, registered breeder instead of heading to the 'pet' store. And keep in mind that not everyone knows how to approach a breeder 'correctly'.

Absolutely agree with this. One hundred percent. Instead of registered breeders, canine councils and other dog-associated bodies whinging, whining and stamping their feet about oodlemakers, backyard breeders and puppy farms, they should be doing POSITIVE campaigning for the "pedigree dogs as pets" cause. Right now they preach to the converted. Everything is aimed at people already involved with pedigree dogs......they need to get getting the word out to people who aren't involved but might want to own a dog.

[Moselle]

Yes education is the key. You can ban and legislate all you want. The area to target is the "demand" for byb and puppy farmed dogs.

I wouldn't be surprised that when the demand does get low that these businesses orchestrate the media on the "perceived" negative health issues of purebred registered dogs. Well placed marketing using "so called" experts such as vets and celebrities (Don Jerk er Burke) to inform of the qualities of xbreds and health issues of purebreds. It has already been proven that some vets have ownership stakes in puppy farms.

Puppy farms are big business and they will use pretty much anything in their arsenal to degrade the purebred registered dog in favor of their "battery hen" style bred puppy farmed dogs. Never underestimate the power of the $$$$$$.

Yes, I agree.

Its marketing and they have done a bloody good job! I do not agree with any of it....but the need is obviously there.

Imo there are so many people in our society today that want to be different and stand out that it doesn't suprise me that these cross breeds have taken off and as soon as they are tired of it they get rid of it and get something else thats the "new"in thing.

Surely people don't dump their pet only then to replace it with the next "in" thing? If that was indeed the case then I guess the same would apply to purebred dogs? When Burke's Backyard was screening, every week he would "road test" a breed of dog and most dogs were purebred, were they not? I know that whenever a particular breed appeared it was the norm for breeders of that breed to be inundated with phone calls from people wanting that breed. How is it that people from the purebred fraternity were not jumping up and down in relation to this? LOL. I just loathe puppy farmers and by that I mean those that are opting to send their kids to university (amongst other things) on the backs of those poor dogs that are kept prisoners in small cells for as long as they are of use and then discarded like shit paper, god only knows how many reg. breeders are just as guilty of this as the bastards that breed and then provide pet shops with stock week in, week out. I know that I am talking outside the square here but it is mostly in response to some of your comments such as that one above, lol. I bought my dog, he has since passed away, a purebred cavalier king charles, from a pet shop. He was sold to the pet shop for a mere $50. I paid $700 for him 12 years ago. I was told that this was not the first time this breeder had done this. In fact I know of other breeders supposedly bound the "code of ethics" who make this a regular occurance much to my disappointment and not only that but also take delight in supplying puppies for the asian market! One word from me "Damn them."

Edited July 9, 2010 by Moselle

[Souff]

Moselle, they tend not to say it that way.

They dont like the sound of the word "dump".

The dog becomes "bad". It becomes "unsuitable". It becomes "naughty" or even "vicious". It might also have become "an escape artist".

Or it might have all been the neighbours fault.

So, the dog goes.

After the new model is installed it was only because "the children were so upset at not having a dog" ... "we missed having a puppy sooo much".

All socially acceptable terminology.

But dump and replace a dog?

Never let it be said.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Souff

[PeiPei]

I wont support pet shops who sell puppies... Its wrong!!

Surely it would be better for them to put up posters of dogs currently in shelters needing a home.

I know they would lose money, but it would stop so many impulse buyers buying the wrong breed or ended up with a dog who has genetic health problems.

I often see these cute puppies in the pet shops and think you poor things...God only knows how your life is going to be.

[rexiam]

Yes education is the key. You can ban and legislate all you want. The area to target is the "demand" for byb and puppy farmed dogs.

I wouldn't be surprised that when the demand does get low that these businesses orchestrate the media on the "perceived" negative health issues of purebred registered dogs. Well placed marketing using "so called" experts such as vets and celebrities (Don Jerk er Burke) to inform of the qualities of xbreds and health issues of purebreds. It has already been proven that some vets have ownership stakes in puppy farms.

Puppy farms are big business and they will use pretty much anything in their arsenal to degrade the purebred registered dog in favor of their "battery hen" style bred puppy farmed dogs. Never underestimate the power of the $$$$$$.

Yes, I agree.

Its marketing and they have done a bloody good job! I do not agree with any of it....but the need is obviously there.

Imo there are so many people in our society today that want to be different and stand out that it doesn't suprise me that these cross breeds have taken off and as soon as they are tired of it they get rid of it and get something else thats the "new"in thing.

Surely people don't dump their pet only then to replace it with the next "in" thing? If that was indeed the case then I guess the same would apply to purebred dogs? When Burke's Backyard was screening, every week he would "road test" a breed of dog and most dogs were purebred, were they not? I know that whenever a particular breed appeared it was the norm for breeders of that breed to be inundated with phone calls from people wanting that breed. How is it that people from the purebred fraternity were not jumping up and down in relation to this? LOL. I just loathe puppy farmers and by that I mean those that are opting to send their kids to university (amongst other things) on the backs of those poor dogs that are kept prisoners in small cells for as long as they are of use and then discarded like shit paper, god only knows how many reg. breeders are just as guilty of this as the bastards that breed and then provide pet shops with stock week in, week out. I know that I am talking outside the square here but it is mostly in response to some of your comments such as that one above, lol. I bought my dog, he has since passed away, a purebred cavalier king charles, from a pet shop. He was sold to the pet shop for a mere $50. I paid $700 for him 12 years ago. I was told that this was not the first time this breeder had done this. In fact I know of other breeders supposedly bound the "code of ethics" who make this a regular occurance much to my disappointment and not only that but also take delight in supplying puppies for the asian market! One word from me "Damn them."

Glad to read I gave you a little LOL in your day :p

Of course people dump there pets to replace them with the next "in" thing!

Souff has said it better than I could - thank you

[Steve]

Yes, true Di. The same would apply with famrers going underground...but then, they have to sell their pups somewhere and so they could be tracked. The black market may be fine if you are only selling a few....but how will the public across Australia find them? They have to advertise in some way, shape or form.

Most of them who are breeding lots in rotten conditions don't sell to the public and they don't sell to a pet shop or at least they don't sell most of what they breed to pet shops.

Tens of thousands of 8 week old puppies are purchased by agents and sent out via Sydney and Perth to Asian pet shops and no one ever knows who bred them or where they came from - same with kittens.

What bothers me the most about calls for the cessation of sales in pet shops, mandatory codes for puppy farmers, restricting ways for breeders to advertise or sell puppies is that they are all based on assumptions. Yet the very people they are aiming at are people who are known to break laws and highly likely to get worse rather than simply give up.

there is no credible data which says animals sold in pet shops are more likely to be dumped - in fact if anything they prove they are not.

We see Mandatory codes call for conditions in breeding establishments which are not conducive to animals living a better quality of life and not one little bit of the one thats circulating now which the RSPCA are pushing in any way attempts to restrict the number of puppies which can be bred on any farm - not that they could anyway. So if you cant restrict how many someone can breed and the bastards who treat their breeding animals cruelly are not likely to adhere to any new laws re licencing etc how is it going to help any dog and prevent any animal from suffering to take away one of the few places a puppy farmer sells their puppies in bulk which can be regulated and which is visible?

There needs to be better data and decisions made on seeing the whole big picture rather than some knee jerk mass propoganda pushed by people who MEAN well but who don't have the rest of the information needed to find a solution which will help.

We cant just go after methods others have tried and which have failed We need to find something new based on knowledge and acceptance of the facts not what some group is telling us what to think.

I believe there is a way - its different - but it would stop much of what is going on for dogs almost overnight and it doesn't include stopping sales of animals in pet shops - though I believe that this would be the long term result.

[shortstep]

I believe there is a way - its different - but it would stop much of what is going on for dogs almost overnight and it doesn't include stopping sales of animals in pet shops - though I believe that this would be the long term result.

What is your idea, can you share more ?

[Staffyluv]

I do think banning pet shops and puppy farms is one answer... Unless pet shops employ people to sell the puppies in a responsible manner. Maybe under some licensing scheme, where you have to fit a certain criteria to be able to purchase a pup in this manner...

Someone suggested earlier about rehoming rescues via pet shops, great idea IMO but once again, we would need some sort of training for those doing the rehoming so the dogs don't end up in the wrong home... And ultimately end up back in rescue or worse...

I think one of the biggest issues with the selling of animals from pet shops and selling via puppy farms is the fact that they really don't seem to care who they sell to.

Puppy farms could be regulated and monitored - expensive I know but someone has to do it to weed out those that just keep the poor parents in cages and breed season after season. These types of farms should be closed - no excuses.

However if there are responsible 'farmers' out there, who look after the dogs, keep them in good conditions, love and care for them and don't breed season after season just to make money but breed to meet customer enquiries, then perhaps that is another area that could be considered due to customer demand.

Please don't get me wrong, I am totally against both practices but realise that it is NOT going to stop - even if it is banned...

[Gayle.]

I do think banning pet shops and puppy farms is one answer... Unless pet shops employ people to sell the puppies in a responsible manner. Maybe under some licensing scheme, where you have to fit a certain criteria to be able to purchase a pup in this manner...

Someone suggested earlier about rehoming rescues via pet shops, great idea IMO but once again, we would need some sort of training for those doing the rehoming so the dogs don't end up in the wrong home... And ultimately end up back in rescue or worse...

I think one of the biggest issues with the selling of animals from pet shops and selling via puppy farms is the fact that they really don't seem to care who they sell to.

Puppy farms could be regulated and monitored - expensive I know but someone has to do it to weed out those that just keep the poor parents in cages and breed season after season. These types of farms should be closed - no excuses.

However if there are responsible 'farmers' out there, who look after the dogs, keep them in good conditions, love and care for them and don't breed season after season just to make money but breed to meet customer enquiries, then perhaps that is another area that could be considered due to customer demand.

Please don't get me wrong, I am totally against both practices but realise that it is NOT going to stop - even if it is banned...

To ban or regulate puppy farms, you first need to define a puppy farm. Once you start putting it into words, you'll find a lot of legitimate breeders cross the line, and some puppy farmers/backyard breeders would fall through the cracks.

There is a pet shop in Chadstone that has rescue dogs for rehoming. The staff take the details of anyone interested in buying the dog and pass them on to wherever the dog has come from, and those people make the decision, not the shop staff.

[Shmurps]

Most of them who are breeding lots in rotten conditions don't sell to the public and they don't sell to a pet shop or at least they don't sell most of what they breed to pet shops.

Tens of thousands of 8 week old puppies are purchased by agents and sent out via Sydney and Perth to Asian pet shops and no one ever knows who bred them or where they came from.

I had no idea this happens.

[Steve]

I do think banning pet shops and puppy farms is one answer... Unless pet shops employ people to sell the puppies in a responsible manner. Maybe under some licensing scheme, where you have to fit a certain criteria to be able to purchase a pup in this manner...

Someone suggested earlier about rehoming rescues via pet shops, great idea IMO but once again, we would need some sort of training for those doing the rehoming so the dogs don't end up in the wrong home... And ultimately end up back in rescue or worse...

I think one of the biggest issues with the selling of animals from pet shops and selling via puppy farms is the fact that they really don't seem to care who they sell to.

Puppy farms could be regulated and monitored - expensive I know but someone has to do it to weed out those that just keep the poor parents in cages and breed season after season. These types of farms should be closed - no excuses.

However if there are responsible 'farmers' out there, who look after the dogs, keep them in good conditions, love and care for them and don't breed season after season just to make money but breed to meet customer enquiries, then perhaps that is another area that could be considered due to customer demand.

Please don't get me wrong, I am totally against both practices but realise that it is NOT going to stop - even if it is banned...

When someone has had to invest a squillion dollars to make sure they comply with the crazy regulations for breeding establishments and they own anything up to 1000 dogs they cant afford to only breed for customer enquiries. They have to pump em out , hold their breath they dont get a virus or freeze to death and get as many bulk sales as possible.

Logistically its not possible for someone to give each puppy buyer a one on one and be there for follow up. Its definitely not going to be a good thing for their pockets to offer a service which takes the dog back if they are not happy or if something goes wrong. Feeding 1000 dogs a week would mean they have to pump out and sell off quickly before the pups start eating more profits or needing more people to pick up poo etc on a continual level not just to fill customer inquiries.

[Steve]

Most of them who are breeding lots in rotten conditions don't sell to the public and they don't sell to a pet shop or at least they don't sell most of what they breed to pet shops.

Tens of thousands of 8 week old puppies are purchased by agents and sent out via Sydney and Perth to Asian pet shops and no one ever knows who bred them or where they came from.

I had no idea this happens.

Registered breeders in Australia sell registered puppies to overseas pet shops with registration papers - these are export certificates provided by the Canine Councils which allow people in other countries to register the dogs on overseas registries.they can be used for showing or breeding registered pups in that country. An example of this type of transaction is Dan McDougall in Hawaii and the mainland US.

Transpet is the sole agent for him in Australia and last time I looked a couple of hundred per month are shipped out this way.this makes lots of money for breeders- because puppies are purchased for around the same price they would get if they sold them individually here.It makes lots of money for the consulting vet who gets paid lots of money to check them out the day they come in and clears them for export,it makes lots of money for Transpet who take a commission as an agent and also pick up profit for the flights out. It makes lots of money for the Canine Councils who pick up around 100 per pup for the export certificate and it makes lots of money for the pet shop in Hawaii who sells the pup within a few days fo them arriving there. This has lots to do with the fact that Australia has no quarantine issues as we have no rabies. A pup can go from here to anywhere in the world without having to be held anywhere and they can be in their new homes the day they arrive.

Then you have agents who do the same job as transpet but they dont deal in pups that will have registered export certificates - though they still may have a registered pedigree - people who want them as pets have no desire to have the papers transfered on the receiving country's data base and some registries just accept them and enter them without the registered export certificate.

Last time I looked the figures for this type of export was over 10,000 and Id say there are lots more than that now. They go out via Sydney, Melbourne and Perth. One agent in Perth pays flights from any state and as much money as we can get for a purebred pup and they don't want any papers. Another agent from NSW travels around and picks them up in the back of his car and pays cash - flies them out to Hong Kong and other Asian countries straight into pet shops.

Its estimated 20,000 or more unpapered purebred kittens especially blue British shorthaired and other types of purebred cats fly into Hong Kong to pet shops each year from this country too.

[Steve]

double post

Edited July 16, 2010 by Steve

[shortstep]

Registered breeders in Australia sell registered puppies to overseas pet shops with registration papers - these are export certificates provided by the Canine Councils which allow people in other countries to register the dogs on overseas registries.they can be used for showing or breeding registered pups in that country. An example of this type of transaction is Dan McDougall in Hawaii and the mainland US.

Transpet is the sole agent for him in Australia and last time I looked a couple of hundred per month are shipped out this way.this makes lots of money for breeders- because puppies are purchased for around the same price they would get if they sold them individually here.It makes lots of money for the consulting vet who gets paid lots of money to check them out the day they come in and clears them for export,it makes lots of money for Transpet who take a commission as an agent and also pick up profit for the flights out. It makes lots of money for the Canine Councils who pick up around 100 per pup for the export certificate and it makes lots of money for the pet shop in Hawaii who sells the pup within a few days fo them arriving there. This has lots to do with the fact that Australia has no quarantine issues as we have no rabies. A pup can go from here to anywhere in the world without having to be held anywhere and they can be in their new homes the day they arrive.

Then you have agents who do the same job as transpet but they dont deal in pups that will have registered export certificates - though they still may have a registered pedigree - people who want them as pets have no desire to have the papers transfered on the receiving country's data base and some registries just accept them and enter them without the registered export certificate.

Last time I looked the figures for this type of export was over 10,000 and Id say there are lots more than that now. They go out via Sydney, Melbourne and Perth. One agent in Perth pays flights from any state and as much money as we can get for a purebred pup and they don't want any papers. Another agent from NSW travels around and picks them up in the back of his car and pays cash - flies them out to Hong Kong and other Asian countries straight into pet shops.

Its estimated 20,000 or more unpapered purebred kittens especially blue British shorthaired and other types of purebred cats fly into Hong Kong to pet shops each year from this country too.

Yes his name is very well used in the Dogs NSW edition. No question that anyone looking could miss what is going on.

So is the answer to shut down pet export? I would hate to see that as there many that are sending dogs to good homes over seas. I would also like to think that the ability to move dogs to different countries will aid in decreasing some disease and improve breeds over all. Is there a method that could some how qucikly block that bad and not the good exports?

Edited July 16, 2010 by shortstep

[Steve]

So how will stopping puppies sold in Australian pet shops solve this - If the object in all of this is stopping puppies being bred in appalling conditions en mass ?

If the object is to stop people buying dogs cant live with and then dump them then we need some real data to back that up.

In NSW puppies sold in pet shops have had to be chipped for over 10 years and yet the majority of dogs coming into shelters are not chipped. You cant just say pet shops are the problem without something concrete to back that up.

[Steve]

Registered breeders in Australia sell registered puppies to overseas pet shops with registration papers - these are export certificates provided by the Canine Councils which allow people in other countries to register the dogs on overseas registries.they can be used for showing or breeding registered pups in that country. An example of this type of transaction is Dan McDougall in Hawaii and the mainland US.

Transpet is the sole agent for him in Australia and last time I looked a couple of hundred per month are shipped out this way.this makes lots of money for breeders- because puppies are purchased for around the same price they would get if they sold them individually here.It makes lots of money for the consulting vet who gets paid lots of money to check them out the day they come in and clears them for export,it makes lots of money for Transpet who take a commission as an agent and also pick up profit for the flights out. It makes lots of money for the Canine Councils who pick up around 100 per pup for the export certificate and it makes lots of money for the pet shop in Hawaii who sells the pup within a few days fo them arriving there. This has lots to do with the fact that Australia has no quarantine issues as we have no rabies. A pup can go from here to anywhere in the world without having to be held anywhere and they can be in their new homes the day they arrive.

Then you have agents who do the same job as transpet but they dont deal in pups that will have registered export certificates - though they still may have a registered pedigree - people who want them as pets have no desire to have the papers transfered on the receiving country's data base and some registries just accept them and enter them without the registered export certificate.

Last time I looked the figures for this type of export was over 10,000 and Id say there are lots more than that now. They go out via Sydney, Melbourne and Perth. One agent in Perth pays flights from any state and as much money as we can get for a purebred pup and they don't want any papers. Another agent from NSW travels around and picks them up in the back of his car and pays cash - flies them out to Hong Kong and other Asian countries straight into pet shops.

Its estimated 20,000 or more unpapered purebred kittens especially blue British shorthaired and other types of purebred cats fly into Hong Kong to pet shops each year from this country too.

Yes his name is very well used in the Dogs NSW edition. No question that anyone looking could miss what is going on.

So is the answer to shut down pet export? I would hate to see that as there many that are sending dogs to good homes over seas. I would also like to think that the ability to move dogs to different countries will aid in decreasing some disease and improve breeds over all. Is there a method that could some how qucikly block that bad and not the good exports?

Nup no way - you cant shut down pet export - its silly for anyone to even think of taking up that option as its against our federal laws of free trade.It will be defeated and squashed before it gets past go.

[shortstep]

So how will stopping puppies sold in Australian pet shops solve this - If the object in all of this is stopping puppies being bred in appalling conditions en mass ?

If the object is to stop people buying dogs cant live with and then dump them then we need some real data to back that up.

In NSW puppies sold in pet shops have had to be chipped for over 10 years and yet the majority of dogs coming into shelters are not chipped. You cant just say pet shops are the problem without something concrete to back that up.

Opps was posting asyou replied. Please ignor.

Sorry not sure if you wre talking to me. I have never thought that stopping pet shop sales will do anything to stop large puppy mills or dog brokers for that matter. I was opposed to the Clover bill. I do think that it would be better if people got thier pups from breeders. But stopping pet shop sales will not make that happen either. They can still buy pup in the penny saver, at markets or any of many other situations.

I do think it might be good to look at some how stopping the suplly of overseas commercial markets for dogs. But I am not in favor of taking away the right to export and import dogs as a braod sweep, as now blood is vital to maintaining breeds here and in other countries. this was what I was asking about.

Edited July 16, 2010 by shortstep

[Steve]

So how will stopping puppies sold in Australian pet shops solve this - If the object in all of this is stopping puppies being bred in appalling conditions en mass ?

If the object is to stop people buying dogs cant live with and then dump them then we need some real data to back that up.

In NSW puppies sold in pet shops have had to be chipped for over 10 years and yet the majority of dogs coming into shelters are not chipped. You cant just say pet shops are the problem without something concrete to back that up.

Opps was posting asyou replied. Please ignor.

Sorry not sure if you wre talking to me. I have never thought that stopping pet shop sales will do anything to stop large puppy mills or dog brokers for that matter. I was opposed to the Clover bill. I do think that it would be better if people got thier pups from breeders. But stopping pet shop sales will not make that happen either. They can still buy pup in the penny saver, at markets or any of many other situations.

I do think it might be good to look at some how stopping the suplly of overseas commercial markets for dogs. But I am not in favor of taking away the right to export and import dogs as a braod sweep, as now blood is vital to maintaining breeds here and in other countries. this was what I was asking about.

I hear you.

[Steve]

The best solution?? Fight fire with fire- ADVERTISE AND SELL pedigree animals. More breeders need to get over themselves and need to realise that they represent the entire ANKC membership whenever they deal with potential puppy purchasers. Even if they get the biggest idiot enquiring- maintain composure and a professional attitude.

I constantly cringe at the behavior of fellow exhibitors at shows, 'pet' expos etc who clearly don't have the patience for dealing with the public.

When I got unsuitable enquiries about my pups, I just explains that I don't feel the breed is suited to their needs and suggested they research a few other breeds etc but thank you very much for being interested and for doing the best thing by contacting a registered breeder.

Many people still hold the belief that breeders of pure breed dogs are snobs and the dogs are too expensive etc. We need to work on that myth and debunk it!!

You do not have to sell a pup to everyone but please think about how you are representing the pure breed fraternity when dealing with puppy enquiries and be pleased that the person has gone to the effort of contacting a reputable, registered breeder instead of heading to the 'pet' store. And keep in mind that not everyone knows how to approach a breeder 'correctly'.

Sounds good but its not that easy.

There are not enough purebred breeders, there are not enough purebred breeders who breed enough purebred puppies. The minute yo start talking about how we should or should not be more open to people who want one of our dogs you overlook the fact that for many- most purebred breeders this is a life's mission a passion - looking after the breed is like a religion.

Its part of the solution but it needs some heavy work first.

[Steve]

Who knows were most of the dogs in this country are?

Government bodies.

Souff

But who knows where most of the breeding dogs in this country are?

Take a look at one community I'm familiar with.Country township population around 500 - even if every household had an average of 1 dog - and they don't thats around 500 dogs. Stats say about 60 of them in this area will be registered with council even though they are liable to be chipped and registered at law.

Then lets move out to just one road which is with 40 kilomteres of this town centre where there are two big puppy farms that I know of - I know for sure there is one with around 300 dogs and more on the other but Id be guessing at how many in the other has. I betchya none of them are chipped or registered. There are also several smaller dog farmers too and again doubtful any of them are registered or chipped.

How does the government have any idea where the dogs in this community are or what anyone is doing with them until someone makes a complaint which alerts them to a problem ?

So while I agree the government should know where most are I reckon there's not a chance based on our current systems.