Is Banning The Selling Of Puppies From Pet Shops The Solution?

[Shmurps]

For me shortstep, you have summed it up.

[Moselle]

It certainly feels like it doesnt it Skitch!! It just seems to be a never ending cycle. I always thought we were getting somewhere in educating the consumer. Then along comes the DD breeds and then WHAMMO, another branch of the sinister cycle has started. Another excited consumer with a cute little puppy on their hands, another excited pet shop owner seeing $$ coming through the store with this new development of DD's that are easily accessible via the puppy farms, another excited puppy farmer seeing $$$ to churn out the 'demand' for these DDs.

Another point I hadnt thought about Whippet - yep alot of stolen purebred dogs to add to the equation if banning was put into place.

What makes you think that if banning was put in place there would be alot of stolen purebred dogs? and who would be behind the stealing of them? I would think that most purebred pet dogs would be desexed, right? and as for registered breeders I would think that their breeding dogs would not be so easily accessible to thieves.

[~Anne~]

Shmurps, replace the word 'petshop' with 'breeder' and you see the exact same thing and yet we are not calling for the sale of puppies by breeders. There are pet shops that are poorly managed and the animals are not cared for appropriately, but proprotionally, I think this is on the smaller scale. The same with breeders. The greater majority are doing the right thing or are willing to do the right thing by the animals in their care. If anything, petshops are less inclined to mistreat animals as they do have inspections and they are in the public eye. Breeders are not inspected. They are not in the public eye.

Ban puppy farms, regardless of what they breed (ie cross bred or registered purebreds).

Question:

How would you define a "puppy farm" in such a ban?

Souff

That question is the crux of it. I have answered though in the thread that Julie raised about the definition. The definition will be something that needs careful consideration becuase of the ramifications.

[Moselle]

I am not so sure that the public at large would be very pleased if breeders of DD were banned. There appears to be a fair bit of demand for crossbred dogs, it seems......

[Moselle]

Shmurps, replace the word 'petshop' with 'breeder' and you see the exact same thing and yet we are not calling for the sale of puppies by breeders. There are pet shops that are poorly managed and the animals are not cared for appropriately, but proprotionally, I think this is on the smaller scale. The same with breeders. The greater majority are doing the right thing or are willing to do the right thing by the animals in their care. If anything, petshops are less inclined to mistreat animals as they do have inspections and they are in the public eye. Breeders are not inspected. They are not in the public eye.

Ban puppy farms, regardless of what they breed (ie cross bred or registered purebreds).

Question:

How would you define a "puppy farm" in such a ban?

Souff

That question is the crux of it. I have answered though in the thread that Julie raised about the definition. The definition will be something that needs careful consideration becuase of the ramifications.

What defines a "puppy farmer" ?????? anyone, be it registered or not....who breeds large scale and has dozens upon dozens of dogs in cages, this should not be allowed, dogs should be allowed to roam free and not kept in small cells as prisoners for the duration of their breeding life!

Edited July 7, 2010 by Moselle

[rexiam]

I agree with Casowner. Its education that we need to focus on for the future.

[Souff]

As for what is a puppy farm, A cruel and dirty facility, as for byb the same on a smaller scale.

Nope, wording like that could not be used in legislation as it is subjective and does not speak to the issue of breeding puppies at all.

btw, Souff has been in animal rescue places that fit that description; the back room of some retail places also fits that description, not to mention private homes of some "animal lovers" ...... but no, they are not "puppy farms".

Souff

[whippets]

Yes education is the key. You can ban and legislate all you want. The area to target is the "demand" for byb and puppy farmed dogs.

I wouldn't be surprised that when the demand does get low that these businesses orchestrate the media on the "perceived" negative health issues of purebred registered dogs. Well placed marketing using "so called" experts such as vets and celebrities (Don Jerk er Burke) to inform of the qualities of xbreds and health issues of purebreds. It has already been proven that some vets have ownership stakes in puppy farms.

Puppy farms are big business and they will use pretty much anything in their arsenal to degrade the purebred registered dog in favor of their "battery hen" style bred puppy farmed dogs. Never underestimate the power of the $$$$$$.

[fiery_di]

It certainly feels like it doesnt it Skitch!! It just seems to be a never ending cycle. I always thought we were getting somewhere in educating the consumer. Then along comes the DD breeds and then WHAMMO, another branch of the sinister cycle has started. Another excited consumer with a cute little puppy on their hands, another excited pet shop owner seeing $$ coming through the store with this new development of DD's that are easily accessible via the puppy farms, another excited puppy farmer seeing $$$ to churn out the 'demand' for these DDs.

Another point I hadnt thought about Whippet - yep alot of stolen purebred dogs to add to the equation if banning was put into place.

What makes you think that if banning was put in place there would be alot of stolen purebred dogs? and who would be behind the stealing of them? I would think that most purebred pet dogs would be desexed, right? and as for registered breeders I would think that their breeding dogs would not be so easily accessible to thieves.

Alot of purebred pups dont go out to their new homes desexed though, and some are put on limited register where the breeder wants stock out of them in return. Some arent desexed until 6mths of age, and in that time they could very well be stolen and put to work in a puppy farm. And I have seen multiple purepred dogs very accessible that are owned by registered breeders.

[rexiam]

Yes education is the key. You can ban and legislate all you want. The area to target is the "demand" for byb and puppy farmed dogs.

I wouldn't be surprised that when the demand does get low that these businesses orchestrate the media on the "perceived" negative health issues of purebred registered dogs. Well placed marketing using "so called" experts such as vets and celebrities (Don Jerk er Burke) to inform of the qualities of xbreds and health issues of purebreds. It has already been proven that some vets have ownership stakes in puppy farms.

Puppy farms are big business and they will use pretty much anything in their arsenal to degrade the purebred registered dog in favor of their "battery hen" style bred puppy farmed dogs. Never underestimate the power of the $$$$$$.

Yes, I agree.

Its marketing and they have done a bloody good job! I do not agree with any of it....but the need is obviously there.

Imo there are so many people in our society today that want to be different and stand out that it doesn't suprise me that these cross breeds have taken off and as soon as they are tired of it they get rid of it and get something else thats the "new"in thing.

[Souff]

The deck is being stacked against the world of purebred dogs. The intellectual uni point of view, here in Australia and around the world, is that purebred dogs are in poor shape. Even more threatening is that dog ownership in general is no longer considered appropriate in our future greener, higher density, earth friendly lifestyles envisioned by the evolved thinkers. We have all seen it, dogs are high carbon polluters. If want a pet get a chicken, keep it on the terrace of your high rise unit, eat the eggs and use the poo in the communal garden plot where you grow your own veggies after you ride your bike home from your downtown high rise office job. LOL Not funny is this really is the way the future is envisioned by many in positions to help make this a reality.

I think ANKC is one of the surrounding problems on a couple of issues. And these are areas that we can do something about.

Purebred dog breeders shoot themselves in the foot on a lot of these issues. Many are failing to make adjustments to the times. No one should breed dogs they do not like, but if they fail to breed dogs that meet the demands of the public and the larger society, then they can not expect the public to want their dogs or to care about the future of their dogs.

It is easy to say the oddle is junk, but junk is in the eye of the beholder. People paying 2000 for oddle evidently do not think they are junk. This fact says a lot, and it clearly shows that what people really value may not be what we thought they would value.

Truer words were never spoken.

In recent years there has been a trend for new brooms to think that they can solve all the problems of the world by slavishly following what appears to be a good idea. Yet often these good ideas are lacking in commonsense and durability. If those who see themselves as reformers took the time to learn from the people who really do know what is best for animals and our relationship with them, the people who think about the future of animals, as well as the present, and have learned from the past ... then ultimately dogs will be better off in the longer term.

The cries of "Ban it!" will not help the animals in the longer term.

The cries of "De-sex It" when you are looking at animals that are carrying some of the best genes from fastly depleting gene pools, is a form of animal cruelty in itself. The genes of good dogs of the affected breeds should remain in breeding programs imho, and shock horror, an embargo on de-sexing may need to be applied to some breeds in the near future.

Many people do not seem to stop and think ..... before they speak, and before they hit the keyboard.

Some have "a cause", some see their cause almost as a religioin, but seem to have lost sight of a few basics.

They do not think carefully about the FUTURE of dogs (purebred or mixed) as a species.

In efforts to "make things better" they could in fact be condemning dogs to a genetically catastrophic future.

The convenience of the lives of owners, and the ideas that our "contemporary community" might have about comfort and fashion, should not be leading the charge to "help" dogs.

Instead, we should all be aiming to ensure that dogs physiological and mental welfare needs are met and these aims need to be consistent, and we should be aiming to ensure that ENOUGH good quality specimens of dogs are kept for breeding, and not sold off as pets to be de-sexed.

This can only be done with education.

Councils and governments collect the money for registration of dogs, and have all the details from the microchip stored away, yet do very, very little in the form of educating the very people who live with those dogs every day of the year.

Who knows were most of the dogs in this country are?

Government bodies.

Who knows where all the pet shops are?

Government bodies.

Who has the money to run education programs?

Government bodies.

Who has the power to create and enforce legislation?

Government bodies.

Whether councils/govermments work with organisations in the delivery process, or whether they work directly with dog owners, EDUCATION IS THE KEY TO MAKING A BETTER FUTURE FOR DOGS and a very simple fact is that education of this nature takes both money and authority to be applied successfully. Dog registering bodies and other doggy related organisations do not have the authority that councils and governments have and while they do a great job in many areas, they will never be truly effective in this field.

Souff

[Shmurps]

As for what is a puppy farm, A cruel and dirty facility, as for byb the same on a smaller scale.

Nope, wording like that could not be used in legislation as it is subjective and does not speak to the issue of breeding puppies at all.

btw, Souff has been in animal rescue places that fit that description; the back room of some retail places also fits that description, not to mention private homes of some "animal lovers" ...... but no, they are not "puppy farms".

Souff

Very true.

[SpikesPuppy]

The best solution?? Fight fire with fire- ADVERTISE AND SELL pedigree animals. More breeders need to get over themselves and need to realise that they represent the entire ANKC membership whenever they deal with potential puppy purchasers. Even if they get the biggest idiot enquiring- maintain composure and a professional attitude.

I constantly cringe at the behavior of fellow exhibitors at shows, 'pet' expos etc who clearly don't have the patience for dealing with the public.

When I got unsuitable enquiries about my pups, I just explains that I don't feel the breed is suited to their needs and suggested they research a few other breeds etc but thank you very much for being interested and for doing the best thing by contacting a registered breeder.

Many people still hold the belief that breeders of pure breed dogs are snobs and the dogs are too expensive etc. We need to work on that myth and debunk it!!

You do not have to sell a pup to everyone but please think about how you are representing the pure breed fraternity when dealing with puppy enquiries and be pleased that the person has gone to the effort of contacting a reputable, registered breeder instead of heading to the 'pet' store. And keep in mind that not everyone knows how to approach a breeder 'correctly'.

[WoofnHoof]

The best solution?? Fight fire with fire- ADVERTISE AND SELL pedigree animals. More breeders need to get over themselves and need to realise that they represent the entire ANKC membership whenever they deal with potential puppy purchasers. Even if they get the biggest idiot enquiring- maintain composure and a professional attitude.

I constantly cringe at the behavior of fellow exhibitors at shows, 'pet' expos etc who clearly don't have the patience for dealing with the public.

When I got unsuitable enquiries about my pups, I just explains that I don't feel the breed is suited to their needs and suggested they research a few other breeds etc but thank you very much for being interested and for doing the best thing by contacting a registered breeder.

Many people still hold the belief that breeders of pure breed dogs are snobs and the dogs are too expensive etc. We need to work on that myth and debunk it!!

You do not have to sell a pup to everyone but please think about how you are representing the pure breed fraternity when dealing with puppy enquiries and be pleased that the person has gone to the effort of contacting a reputable, registered breeder instead of heading to the 'pet' store. And keep in mind that not everyone knows how to approach a breeder 'correctly'.

i agree with you on this.

Also further to souffs point re shrinking gene pools ive often felt that breeding dogs shouldnt just be about one person breeding lots of dogs i think there should be more involvment of pet owners. It shpould be encouraged for owners of nice dogs to breed their dogs and the breeder should be mentoring as many as possible first.y to get more of their dogs out and about and secondly to share the knowledge experience and most of all passion for the breed. If more people become part of the project more people will understand the importance of matching sires and dams and looking at strengths and weaknesses.

[poodlefan]

Also further to souffs point re shrinking gene pools ive often felt that breeding dogs shouldnt just be about one person breeding lots of dogs i think there should be more involvment of pet owners. It shpould be encouraged for owners of nice dogs to breed their dogs and the breeder should be mentoring as many as possible first.y to get more of their dogs out and about and secondly to share the knowledge experience and most of all passion for the breed. If more people become part of the project more people will understand the importance of matching sires and dams and looking at strengths and weaknesses.

If you're breeding dogs you ARE a breeder. Most of the people I see at shows consider their dogs pets and don't breed much.

However,iIn order to do it responsibly you need to register yourself with your CC, obtain a prefix, learn how to judge your own stock and the mechanics of whelping. You also need to obtain Main Register dogs and health test them appropriately. A mentor is no substitute for those things.

As I see it, there is nothing stopping anyone with a passion for purebred dogs becoming a breeder now. However nothing is going to make the process easier or less emotionally draining for those who embark on it.

[WoofnHoof]

Also further to souffs point re shrinking gene pools ive often felt that breeding dogs shouldnt just be about one person breeding lots of dogs i think there should be more involvment of pet owners. It shpould be encouraged for owners of nice dogs to breed their dogs and the breeder should be mentoring as many as possible first.y to get more of their dogs out and about and secondly to share the knowledge experience and most of all passion for the breed. If more people become part of the project more people will understand the importance of matching sires and dams and looking at strengths and weaknesses.

If you're breeding dogs you ARE a breeder. Most of the people I see at shows consider their dogs pets and don't breed much.

However,iIn order to do it responsibly you need to register yourself with your CC, obtain a prefix, learn how to judge your own stock and the mechanics of whelping. You also need to obtain Main Register dogs and health test them appropriately. A mentor is no substitute for those things.

As I see it, there is nothing stopping anyone with a passion for purebred dogs becoming a breeder now. However nothing is going to make the process easier or less emotionally draining for those who embark on it.

There are lots of things stopping people not the least of which is the lack of good quality dogs on main register. That's not really what I was getting at though, I'm more thinking of breeders co owning dogs but instead of the dog going back to the breeder perhaps it could stay at home through the process and the owners mentored and guided. A lot of people shy away from the co owner aspect because they don't want to have to give their dog back and they feel like they have no input I think if more breeders could be encouraged to take this approach it would be an effective way of introducing pet owners to the breeding side of things without having to jump into the deep end.

[poodlefan]

There are lots of things stopping people not the least of which is the lack of good quality dogs on main register. That's not really what I was getting at though, I'm more thinking of breeders co owning dogs but instead of the dog going back to the breeder perhaps it could stay at home through the process and the owners mentored and guided. A lot of people shy away from the co owner aspect because they don't want to have to give their dog back and they feel like they have no input I think if more breeders could be encouraged to take this approach it would be an effective way of introducing pet owners to the breeding side of things without having to jump into the deep end.

Everything you've suggested exists now. The reason there aren't more quality dogs on Main Register is that no breeder with any real sense of ethics will sell a dog on Main Register unless its going to a definite show or breeding home. That doesn't mean that dogs can't be upgraded with breeder approval.

What breeders need to be encouraged by is people who've done their homework, are committed to learning, take some effort to show their dogs and have realistic expectations about what breeding involves. Doing the apprenticeship in the show ring or in a breed appropriate dog sport is a good start.

Co-ownership doesn't have to mean "giving your dog back" - its about what the co-owners agree on. However what good is an experienced mentor breeder that's not with the bitch at 2.00 am in the morning when the bitch is whelping and things start to go wrong. An inexperienced dog owner can create a lot of harm for an inwhelp bitch without realising it too. Witness someone I know of that had a bitch abort pups close to term because she wasn't provided with appropriate shelter from the elements on a stinking hot summers day. The fact that she might have needed something more than the other dogs got never occured to them. :rolleyes:

Breeders who refuse to sell dogs to novice showies and breeders irritate me but I understand that they've often been badly burned by buyers before. I do know that if I were a breeder there's no way in hell I'd sell a Main Register bitch outright to a dog owner I didn't know and who had no track record in showing or sports.

Edited July 7, 2010 by poodlefan

[Souff]

Also further to souffs point re shrinking gene pools ive often felt that breeding dogs shouldnt just be about one person breeding lots of dogs i think there should be more involvment of pet owners. It shpould be encouraged for owners of nice dogs to breed their dogs and the breeder should be mentoring as many as possible first.y to get more of their dogs out and about and secondly to share the knowledge experience and most of all passion for the breed. If more people become part of the project more people will understand the importance of matching sires and dams and looking at strengths and weaknesses.

In some schools that have an agricultural focus, the breeding of livestock is a normal part of the curriculum.

Teaching good breeding ethics is not new.

I believe that responsible dog owners who want to own a top quality purebred dog should be encouraged to be part of th FULL LIFE CYCLE of that dog or bitch, but not on their own. Breeders and owners working together, sharing the dog at those times in the dogs life when the sharing is going to result in improvement or sustainability of a breed. Not putting 2 lesser quality dogs together just because they are of the same breed, and that it seems like a good idea to have a litter of pups.

Call me an elitist if you will, but breeding of dogs NEEDS to be about the breeding of GOOD DOGS.

There are hundreds of unwanted mutts put to sleep every week in Australia and that pile does not need adding to so there is a place for desexing.

The phrase "responsible dog ownership" is widely used and promoted, yet when you look at what is actually look at what is happening within this terminology, there is nothing about the future of the dogs. "Responsible dog ownership" as we know it is mostly about keeping the humans in our "contemporary community" happy.

Perhaps "Responsible dog ownership" could have the same holistic approach that is applied to other species of animals and birds.

Responsible dog ownership needs to be about ALL of the natural aspects of a dog's life cycle ... there is a lot more to it than desexing a dog and picking up the poo.

We are encouraged to put breeding boxes out for possums and some councils string up tubular rope ladders across roads for the possums to use instead of becoming roadkill, so important is the life cycle of a possum; we can pick up glossy brochures at hardware stores telling us on how best to treat and breed garden worms for their entire life cycle; and I can read how the world is coming to an end because we are not caring about the life cycle of the frog as we should and they have all disappeared (but if the writer were to dig a metre downwards in dry weather they would probably find the missing frog hibernating until the rain came) ....

No, it is time that we got serious about the life cycle of good dogs and worked towards a future of good healthy dogs, and encourage responsible dog owners to be part of the project, or face a future where the buyer's choice, and the health, of Man's Best Friend will not be as good as it is now.

Souff

[K9Nev]

Yo, you are on the right track FD.

Ban anything and you immediately create a black market. Dead set certainty.

Human beings are totally ingenious and some find a ban a challenge, and if they get caught doing whatever is banned, well the legal fraternity are ready and waiting for them, rubbing their hands together. Laws are made for lawyers to get rich and are often made by lawyers. That is no accident.

Bans keep the dibberdobbers in a lather but the black markets and the lawyers thrive, dibberdobbers notwithstanding.

Souff is still totally against the deliberate breeding of crossbred dogs, but would a law for that totally stop it? Of course not.

It would mean that the practice would be regulated though and that, in my very own humble opinion, would hopefully raise the bar and we might see better bred dogs and less plundering of gene pools. Might. Little pigs might sprout wings and fly too. When Jed sees that Souff is banging this drum again, that is probably what we will hear.

Education wins over bans everytime, and if we can educate people to understand that there is a very limited supply of purebred dogs left in some of the gene pools, and that crossbreeding dogs has the capacity to annihilate whole breeds of dogs in a very short space of time, then we will be making some progress.

Now what was I saying about little pigs .....

Souff

Can't say that I see black market mongrel dogs as a lucrative sales potential in general terms. Banning of pet shop puppies would certainly reduce impulse buying as the availability on hand is no longer there. Anyone wanting a puppy other than from a registered breeder is more difficult to scource and takes effort that the impulse buyer I don't believe will take that initiative. Personally I think it should be illegal to breed and sell puppies period unless you hold a breeders licence/registration.

Cheers

Nev

Replace "black market mongrel dogs" with "non-allergenic designer dogs" and sadly you have wording that has been proven to be very lucrative.

Impulse buying would be reduced, but not totally eliminated because people can still make stupid snap decisions when they are around cute fluffy puppies and dont always consider the long term care of that puppy, particularly in school holidays. Kids go back to school, Mum and Dad go back to work, no time for training, and within weeks they can have "a nuisance dog" that they no longer want to keep.

Souff

Anything "black market" for the average person is difficult to obtain compared to a "free for all" which applies in the puppy trade. With the right contacts, there a drugs, guns, stolen cars etc etc available on the black market, but where do you find this stuff???. I would have absolutely no idea where to begin looking to buy an illegal hand gun or some cocain etc which would take effort to find this stuff. You can't simply shoot up to the local shopping centre and buy it at will as you can to aquire a puppy. Puppies are neither an addiction or tools of desparation where people would loose the notion to obtain a black market puppy much faster than finding drugs or guns I would imagine.

The puppy business is basically unregulated, so some laws in place would definitely help improve the situation IMHO

Cheers

Nev

[Shmurps]

Also further to souffs point re shrinking gene pools ive often felt that breeding dogs shouldnt just be about one person breeding lots of dogs i think there should be more involvment of pet owners. It shpould be encouraged for owners of nice dogs to breed their dogs and the breeder should be mentoring as many as possible first.y to get more of their dogs out and about and secondly to share the knowledge experience and most of all passion for the breed. If more people become part of the project more people will understand the importance of matching sires and dams and looking at strengths and weaknesses.

In some schools that have an agricultural focus, the breeding of livestock is a normal part of the curriculum.

Teaching good breeding ethics is not new.

I believe that responsible dog owners who want to own a top quality purebred dog should be encouraged to be part of th FULL LIFE CYCLE of that dog or bitch, but not on their own. Breeders and owners working together, sharing the dog at those times in the dogs life when the sharing is going to result in improvement or sustainability of a breed. Not putting 2 lesser quality dogs together just because they are of the same breed, and that it seems like a good idea to have a litter of pups.

Call me an elitist if you will, but breeding of dogs NEEDS to be about the breeding of GOOD DOGS.

There are hundreds of unwanted mutts put to sleep every week in Australia and that pile does not need adding to so there is a place for desexing.

The phrase "responsible dog ownership" is widely used and promoted, yet when you look at what is actually look at what is happening within this terminology, there is nothing about the future of the dogs. "Responsible dog ownership" as we know it is mostly about keeping the humans in our "contemporary community" happy.

Perhaps "Responsible dog ownership" could have the same holistic approach that is applied to other species of animals and birds.

Responsible dog ownership needs to be about ALL of the natural aspects of a dog's life cycle ... there is a lot more to it than desexing a dog and picking up the poo.

We are encouraged to put breeding boxes out for possums and some councils string up tubular rope ladders across roads for the possums to use instead of becoming roadkill, so important is the life cycle of a possum; we can pick up glossy brochures at hardware stores telling us on how best to treat and breed garden worms for their entire life cycle; and I can read how the world is coming to an end because we are not caring about the life cycle of the frog as we should and they have all disappeared (but if the writer were to dig a metre downwards in dry weather they would probably find the missing frog hibernating until the rain came) ....

No, it is time that we got serious about the life cycle of good dogs and worked towards a future of good healthy dogs, and encourage responsible dog owners to be part of the project, or face a future where the buyer's choice, and the health, of Man's Best Friend will not be as good as it is now.

Souff

You are a very wise person souff.

I especially like the last sentence. I am not very good with words. I tend to get too angry. It's a hard and emotional problem to solve.

So I think I shall read and learn.