Agility Training Talk Thread

[The Spotted Devil]

KC explained it much better :laugh:

megan_ I originally had planned to go but, on a post grad student income I couldn't justify both buying equipment and attending the GD seminar.

[kelpiechick]

... a lot of non -Derrett handlers to have the belief that dogs don't get enough warning that a turn is coming up in the Derrett system, which is entirely the fault of how most of us run the course, not of the system itself. Greg doesn't like the term pre-cue, but decel is a bloody big pre-cue when applied correctly.

I think this is so true. I was just saying something very similar to someone the other day. I see a lot of late cues & wide turns, but lately assume its the execution rather than the system.

I don't use the GD system, I precue , but do have a question...

The precue allows me to get ahead if i need to when executing a FC which means I can accelerate through it while still changing sides. Would this only be handled a a rear in the GD system?

I can probably find video somewhere to illustrate if this doesn't make sense...

Hi Vickie,

pretty sure I know what you mean - will try and answer and hopefully I get it right. (Any other Derrett devotee can correct me if I am wrong I am sure.) System uses 3 cues for front crosses - first is handler starts to decelerate as they come up to positional cue, this means dog should start to collect. So as TSD mentioned it is vital in the system to have good independent commitment to 180's, 270's etc. so you can get to where you need to be in time to actually show your deceleration cue to the dog. You need to stay ahead for this and if you can't get far enough ahead at a particular point , then yep, you need to use a rear cross. 2nd cue after the decel is being in positional cue (very close to the upright where the turn will take place) and then 3rd cue is the actual arm change. What most of us were criticised for (and rightly so) was lumping all these cues together and mainly relying on just the arm change, creating some wide turns.

In regard to accelerating through the actual turn, would depend on where you were going next - if you were using acceleration to take you to next obstacle you would indeed power through the turn with your third step but if a tight turn were immediately following the FC then you need to take care that you were still cueing decel via foot direction, body, etc. I hope that makes sense.

I don't know too much about APHS or other systems but have seen the use of the opposite arm as a precue before. In some ways I would almost liken this to Greg's decel except I am guessing that you do have to be a bit further ahead with Derrett system to cue the decel ? Hope this makes sense. And a question for you too - would you be using your pre-cue to cause dog to decel to then enable you to get ahead for the FC as opposed to Derrett system where you have to actually get ahead first ?? (Hope that makes sense too)

So many different ways to get around an agility course that's for sure :laugh:

Edited February 7, 2012 by kelpiechick

[RubyStar]

I'm aware of the nose target at the end of a plank, but am looking for ways others have trained it so I can decide which method I'd like to try. If you have videos to back up what you're explaining, even better!

I really hope some of you can offer me some advice, thanks in advance!! :)

I'm trying to teaching Fly a rear feet on method, as opposed to a 2o2o. I basically want her body horizontal, rather that at an angle in her contact position. I'll let you know in about 2 years if it works!

Anyway, here is video so far...

Looking good!!

Did you start teaching her to find the plank with her back feet via shaping/luring/other? And did you start on that plank or on something different? I'm tempted to start the back feet on an actual piece of wood or plank so she doesn't get confused with front feet on a book or smaller object for pivot work.

[The Spotted Devil]

KC described it really well. I agree about the 'lumping' - front crosses have never felt really comfortable for me (very rushed) and it's probably because I was doing them incorrectly!

[Maverick]

Hey Vickie!

Looks like what I trained Vienna and that is exactly how she learnt to back up onto the contact if she came off.. She doesn't turn around and put herself back on.. she backs up and lifts her back legs back into position on the dog walk.

All I need to do now is speed up her pace on the dog walk..

[Vickie]

1328610574[/url]' post='5713953']

Hi Vickie,

pretty sure I know what you mean - will try and answer and hopefully I get it right. (Any other Derrett devotee can correct me if I am wrong I am sure.) System uses 3 cues for front crosses - first is handler starts to decelerate as they come up to positional cue, this means dog should start to collect. So as TSD mentioned it is vital in the system to have good independent commitment to 180's, 270's etc. so you can get to where you need to be in time to actually show your deceleration cue to the dog. You need to stay ahead for this and if you can't get far enough ahead at a particular point , then yep, you need to use a rear cross. 2nd cue after the decel is being in positional cue (very close to the upright where the turn will take place) and then 3rd cue is the actual arm change. What most of us were criticised for (and rightly so) was lumping all these cues together and mainly relying on just the arm change, creating some wide turns.

In regard to accelerating through the actual turn, would depend on where you were going next - if you were using acceleration to take you to next obstacle you would indeed power through the turn with your third step but if a tight turn were immediately following the FC then you need to take care that you were still cueing decel via foot direction, body, etc. I hope that makes sense.

I don't know too much about APHS or other systems but have seen the use of the opposite arm as a precue before. In some ways I would almost liken this to Greg's decel except I am guessing that you do have to be a bit further ahead with Derrett system to cue the decel ? Hope this makes sense. And a question for you too - would you be using your pre-cue to cause dog to decel to then enable you to get ahead for the FC as opposed to Derrett system where you have to actually get ahead first ?? (Hope that makes sense too)

So many different ways to get around an agility course that's for sure :laugh:

Thanks & yes, that does make sense.

In answer to your question, my response would probably be similar to yours...it would depend where I'm going next.

To be honest, although I follow the Meckinberg system and use a balance of cues, I tend to think in terms of commitment these days, rather than in terms of acceleration/deceleration. I think I really only decelerate when I am waiting for commitment to a line. Once I have that commitment, I'm out of there!

Someone I teach asked me a technical question at a trial last week, about how far she should go into a pinwheel based on the Mecklinberg system. My response was simple: Forget the technical stuff, go as far as you need to, ie as far as your instinct/autopilot tells you to, to get your dog to commit to the line/obstacle.

Does that make sense?

I think people can get too bogged down in the technical stuff at a trial. I like to be technical when I'm training, and obviously to come up with a plan when I'm walking a course, but when I'm running in a trial, I don't want to have to think about it, everything I have practiced, should just happen.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Vickie

[Vickie]

Looking good!!

Did you start teaching her to find the plank with her back feet via shaping/luring/other? And did you start on that plank or on something different? I'm tempted to start the back feet on an actual piece of wood or plank so she doesn't get confused with front feet on a book or smaller object for pivot work.

Thanks :). I just started by luring & feeding in position. Then I started to mark any backward motion of her back feet, based on this article:

http://www.awesomepaws.us/pdf/Reprint_OneRearToe.pdf

She does pivot stuff too & doesn't seem at all confused by it.

[Vickie]

1328669144[/url]' post='5714578']

Hey Vickie!

Looks like what I trained Vienna and that is exactly how she learnt to back up onto the contact if she came off.. She doesn't turn around and put herself back on.. she backs up and lifts her back legs back into position on the dog walk.

All I need to do now is speed up her pace on the dog walk..

I love viennas contacts :)

[RubyStar]

So Millie's contacts on the dogwalk at training last night were interesting, to say the least. Our first night back training and first real time in a class.

If I look back at her, she stops dead in her tracks, even if it means sitting in the colour. Oh dear

So instead, all night I just kept running without looking back until the last second (didn't stop running to look) and every time she ran to the end of the contact. I guess I am lucky that she doesn't want to jump off the end of the dogwalk so doesn't miss her dogwalk contacts, but I fear if I keep running without putting proper rules in place it may eventually creep in. I would prefer to have a solid 2o2o in place so she can keep running to the end and stop regardless of me stopping or running, so it's back to basics again! May do the back feet thing with her while I do it with Pippa.

Here is our trial from the weekend. We have huge issues with weave entries as part of a course and I have to get on top of this sniffing diversion she is starting to do. But it demonstrates her dogwalk as what I am trying to explain above :) I am really quite happy with her enthusiasm and she is a blast to run, when she isn't making her own course up!!!! I'm looking forward to more classes with her and hopefully getting better :)

[Vickie]

1328673326[/url]' post='5714685']

I am really quite happy with her enthusiasm and she is a blast to run, when she isn't making her own course up!!!! I'm looking forward to more classes with her and hopefully getting better :)

Hey RS, that was an AWESOME run! She sure is enthusiastic! She's Loving every minute of it

Have you tried letting her find her own entry in the poles? She is a great weaver, I would just hang back a bit in a trial & practice crowding her in training a bit more, so she is happy with both.

[Kavik]

Kaos goes better if I hang back and let him find his own weave entry, he doesn't like to be crowded either - guess I should work on that so he is comfotable with it!

[RubyStar]

Thanks for the weave feedback and tips I did try and let her find it herself, obviously I was still a bit too close I was at the start line pointing at the weaves and saying "go weave" to warn her up front weaves were coming - didn't work I didn't lead out as far as I normally would as I wanted her to drive ahead to find the entry. She just totally bypassed it for a sniff, so I am thinking she is perhaps finding weave entries on a course just a bit too overwhelming. I will keep at it!

That was her weaker weaving side (some of you may remember me posting for advice when we were learning when she wouldn't weave past the second weave on that side but would go further on the other side). Last night at training, weaving on that side, she constantly pulled out around weave 10. Put her through on the opposite side and she zoomed through all no probs :rolleyes: I'm not the only one who has a dog who has stronger weaves on a particular side, am I?

[OSoSwift]

Does she sniff only when she is supposed to be going through the weavers or at other times?

She is brilliant when she gets going :)

[canine fun sports]

1328673326[/url]' post='5714685']

I am really quite happy with her enthusiasm and she is a blast to run, when she isn't making her own course up!!!! I'm looking forward to more classes with her and hopefully getting better :)

Hey RS, that was an AWESOME run! She sure is enthusiastic! She's Loving every minute of it

Have you tried letting her find her own entry in the poles? She is a great weaver, I would just hang back a bit in a trial & practice crowding her in training a bit more, so she is happy with both.

I must be the odd man out. I actually think you initially indicated with a forward cue, then just dropped you hand before she reached the weaves. My advice would be to keep driving harder at the weaves.

Practice your weave entries from behind, ahead, out wide and even standing on your head, if you are that flexible. (I'm not). It will give you a definite handling advantage if your dog will enter the weaves from any direction, with you in any position. And I would always be actively driving at them.

I agree with the "awesome run" part!

Cheers,

[Vickie]

Dasweep & DeltaCharlie put this amazing video together for Trim and I of some of our runs from last year. I don't think I've shared it here, but watched it again today since we were talking about handling systems/acceleration/cues etc, so I thought I'd put it up

Warning, it's a bit long...but there are a few times in it that I accelerate through a FC, and there afe other times i need to wait for commitment...much easier to see than explain in words :)

Edited February 8, 2012 by Vickie

[RubyStar]

I must be the odd man out. I actually think you initially indicated with a forward cue, then just dropped you hand before she reached the weaves. My advice would be to keep driving harder at the weaves.

Practice your weave entries from behind, ahead, out wide and even standing on your head, if you are that flexible. (I'm not). It will give you a definite handling advantage if your dog will enter the weaves from any direction, with you in any position. And I would always be actively driving at them.

I agree with the "awesome run" part!

Cheers,

Thanks for your thoughts, too! Interesting about me dropping my arm, as that is what I always do. Maybe I need to be more aware of my signal for weaves. Looks like I have some experimenting to do! :)

Appreciate everyone's input! I am such an agility noob with no real handling system (unless "point and pray" counts? :laugh:) so to get constructive criticism is awesome, thankyou!

[ness]

point and pray is awesome :laugh: RS.

[OSoSwift]

I fully understand point and pray :)

[RubyStar]

Does she sniff only when she is supposed to be going through the weavers or at other times?

She is brilliant when she gets going :)

Thanks OSS. I love Millie's weaves, compared to Ruby's at least

Sadly, she does sniff at other points, but the weaves are the point in which she does it the most.

[OSoSwift]

Does she sniff only when she is supposed to be going through the weavers or at other times?

She is brilliant when she gets going :)

Thanks OSS. I love Millie's weaves, compared to Ruby's at least

Sadly, she does sniff at other points, but the weaves are the point in which she does it the most.

I am sumising, which I am sure you have already done and come to the same conclusion, that she is probably sniffing as a displacement behaviour because she is stressed for some reason. What that reason is who knows, but when I watched her video I saw it as a displacement behaviour.