Agility Training Talk Thread

[**Super_Dogs**]

Interesting conversation about targets.

I have been teaching my pup to touch a target to eventually use for 2o2o on contacts. She is going very well. I put her in a sit stay, release her and she drives and touches the target (a blue container lid). She is even driving away from me

How do I now introduce a drop when she touches the target?

[sheena]

Interesting conversation about targets.

I have been teaching my pup to touch a target to eventually use for 2o2o on contacts. She is going very well. I put her in a sit stay, release her and she drives and touches the target (a blue container lid). She is even driving away from me

How do I now introduce a drop when she touches the target?

I have taught my new pup to move into the 2o2o position, & remain there until I release him. I throw a few treats all around, but he is only allowed those he can reach without moving. His feet must stay in the same position, until released. I taught this on the floor first. If he breaks his stay to get a treat,I quickly put my foot on it. If he stays put,I reward him sometimes with treats in my hand,sometimes picking up the ones on the floor & giving it to him & other times releasing him to the treats. He thinks it's a great game. You would teach it the same on a mat, throwing treats to him while ever he stays on the mat...if he moves the treats stop.

[Kavik]

Interesting conversation about targets.

I have been teaching my pup to touch a target to eventually use for 2o2o on contacts. She is going very well. I put her in a sit stay, release her and she drives and touches the target (a blue container lid). She is even driving away from me

How do I now introduce a drop when she touches the target?

Why do you want the dog to drop? 2o2o generally means the dog stands with 2 front feet on the ground and 2 back feet on the contact obstacle.

[Tassie]

@ whiskedaway - I'd be careful about having her in a formal sit stay - you don't want to break that - if it's an agility start line stay, then you can release he with whatever your release cue is ('OK' or break' or whatever) - and occasionally going back to reward her for maintaining her position until released. I'd probably only have the treat actually in place a couple times - and have her quite close to start with. Then you stay reasonably close tot he target to start with, so that as she moves towards it to investigate whether the treat is there or not, you can instantly mark/click and race in with the treat and excited praise. Then maybe have a little game of tug if she likes it - upt tug away, rinse and repeat, ever so gradually increasing the distance and changing the angles.

I like this game to be a really high energy exciting one, so the dog is driving towards the target. Once she's done it a couple times and you think she's got it, you can start putting a verbal cue on it - touch, mat - or whatever - given after the break cue.

@ buddy1 I'd make sure you have a good quick drop happening away from you first, before you start to pair it with the target. Ideally it will be a foldback down (the one from a stand), not a sit/drop one). I start with the dog dropping on a verbal cue quite close to me, mark and either treat in position, or throw a piece of visible food, and tell the dog to get it - as he does, give another drop cue - rinse and repeat. Again, high energy, high excitemeent - but little steps - you want rapid reliable response before distance IMHO.

Should have prefaced all this by saying I'm very far from being an expert - still just trying to train mine. :D

[sheena]

The only reason you would want it to drop at the end of a contact is if you were doing 4 on the floor

[corvus]

my doofus seems to have trouble comprehending, even if I lure him, that he is even ON a mat. He understands 'go away from mum and sit' but whether he's near the mat or not is just coincidence. He just doesn't get it.

That was Kivi. I took a break and taught him to target and started getting him to put his paws or nose on various items I indicated. By the time I eventually got back to the mat he had no trouble. Sometimes it helps to use something raised above ground level to target. It's easier to notice!

[**Super_Dogs**]

Interesting conversation about targets.

I have been teaching my pup to touch a target to eventually use for 2o2o on contacts. She is going very well. I put her in a sit stay, release her and she drives and touches the target (a blue container lid). She is even driving away from me

How do I now introduce a drop when she touches the target?

Why do you want the dog to drop? 2o2o generally means the dog stands with 2 front feet on the ground and 2 back feet on the contact obstacle.

Good Point. You are right - I don't need to. When I was taught with my other dog (I was learning myself) it was into a down position at the end of the contact.

My new pup I am teaching with a target - as I have not been entirely happy with the drop.

[Tailwag]

We have a few of our Border Collies that drop at the end of a DW, AF no that is a 2o2o, SS our dogs either have a 4 on, or a lie down. I prefer not to have a 2o2o on the SS, altho with the new one, flipping up isnt going to be too much of an issue as it is very low to the ground anyhow.

What i dont understand is why everyone must be doing the same thing in class. I know when i intructed years ago i worked with what worked with the dog and handler, not all dogs and handlers are the same, not all learn the same, and not all can do the same thing. You work with what you have and if a handler has something in mind that they want to go with then i would work with them to accomplish it. I really find that hard to understand.

For teaching the target i also highly reward for any touch of the target then my criterias increase to what the dog must do, i prefer not to use a clicker but utilise verbals ie 'yes' and go from there . Remeber tho it is all a game .

[Kavik]

Do you find it hard with different contact behaviours on different equipment? For simplicity I have 2o2o on everything. Kaos is big enough that I don't worry about the seesaw flipping up, he is also not speedy enough on it to be a problem there.

[kelpiechick]

The only reason you would want it to drop at the end of a contact is if you were doing 4 on the floor

My BC drops at the end of the contacts in 2on 2off. Criteria when teaching was elbows on ground, touching the edge of plank and rest of body on wood so it's definitely not 4 on the floor. I used UK trainer Toni Dawkins method to train (outlined on her DVD Ultimate Contacts) and I am really pleased with the results so far. Reason I decided to try it, having trained 2on 2off before with a nose touch, was that she was offering the 'BC crouch' at the end naturally, so I decided to go with something a little different that appeared to be a more natural behaviour for her - Toni chooses this method with her BC's for the same reason and elaborates on why she thinks it gives a faster performance on the DVD.

2on 2off can have a variety of positions at the end, nose touch, standing, drop, etc. All depends how you train it and what your criteria is.

Downside for me is that I now have 3 dogs with 3 different contact performances and have to remember which dog I am running at the time.

[**Super_Dogs**]

There are so many different criteria it is hard to know which one to use to train my pup.

My current dog I am training was orginally trained 2o2o in a down position (this was the method they used at the time as the club I was at). She never really got the 2 off bit and will get into a down on the end of the contact. I tired to re-train her 2o2o but she was getting so confused so I thought why bother bother as what does it matter if she is 2 of of 4 on the floor!!!

So we have our own criteria. She is consistent and knows her job so I am happy

However I don't think I want to use this method for my pup. It seems different criteria are more successful for different breeds. I have labs - anyone experiemented with criteria for labs that can offer advice for my pup?

[The Spotted Devil]

We ran a jumping course from the AKC champs at training last night. It was very deceptive and I could really see where the very fast dogs would have picked up milliseconds with tight turns. It was pretty challenging for a big striding Dally but even more so for a big striding, lightening FAST Border Collie. Heaps of fun though and my @r$e was saved on more than one occasion by my Mad Spotted Dog

[Vickie]

Video! We need video of such things TSD

sounds like fun

[Tassie]

Video! We need video of such things TSD

sounds like fun

What she said! Love the dogs that can save you like that - my Kirra is the opposite - she'll drop me in it whenever she feels like it - and then bites me to tell me off for not handling properly

[piper]

whiskedaway, my 'slower' dog (not saying Akira is slow, but mine certainly can be) has trouble learning behaviours involving 'items'. We have an exercise in our companion obedience classes which involves sending the dog to a mat from 3m away. My smartie pants girl learnt it in a few quick sessions yet my doofus seems to have trouble comprehending, even if I lure him, that he is even ON a mat. He understands 'go away from mum and sit' but whether he's near the mat or not is just coincidence. He just doesn't get it.

Waffles, what you have said about the dog even knowing it is ON the mat is what I was going to say. When I was first taught how to train a dog to go out to a target it was by someone who works with exotic animals as well as having trained animals for TV work and she said they always start with something with a very different texture so the animal can really FEEL it and then afterwards they put it on cue then generalise it to other surfaces. The suggestion was not to use something that is a familiar feel to the animal so for a dog living in a house carpet would not be a novel texture. She said she most often used corrugated cardboard as it was cheap, lightweight and feels distinctly different to carpet, grass, dirt, cement etc. So Whisked Away have you thought about starting again with something that is a totally different texture and shape it, do not lure it right from when you introduce the target. Another suggestion made was when clicking throw the treat to the other side of the mat, most dogs if they are used to being rewarded in front of you will then run back across the mat to get back to you at which point you click their feet on it and throw the treat back etc.

Oh another thing was to make it LARGE initially, like 1m x 1m, especially if using the throw treat away method, if it is too small they just go around it. Piper when first trained would actively avoid the surface, I hadn't thought I would need a large ground target for her but apparently I did! Once I made it large and difficult to avoid she got it quickly.

[Tailwag]

Do you find it hard with different contact behaviours on different equipment? For simplicity I have 2o2o on everything. Kaos is big enough that I don't worry about the seesaw flipping up, he is also not speedy enough on it to be a problem there.

I dont find it hard at all, i was messing around with running AF with Sweep....Link is a definite 2o2o and Dash is a lie down. Rush my young pup will follow her mum in a 2o2o. I screwed up both Dash and Sweep with there contacts and i wasnt going to do the same with Link, she has solid contacts and it is something that i will be consitant with. Besides in all honesty i can get their contact names right but i cant seem to get the name of the dog i am running right lol, lucky my dogs are used to me calling them different things

[koalathebear]

Slow progress with the bang game. Elbie's banging away madly on the plank of wood on top of a pipe that is on the ground but he skitters away from it. It has taken me days and he still keeps running to the side of it - he hates the wonky instability of it. Tonight I managed to get him to walk up it halfway and then go into a drop but it's going to be a long time before I can get him to run along the length of it. Did anyone else's dog take a long time to master see-saw? He desperately wants to do it but he just can't overcome his dislike of a wobbley plank ...

[J...]

I'd break it down even further and go back to a semi-flat balance disc, and then inflate it as he gets more confident with the movement under his feet.

[The Spotted Devil]

Video! We need video of such things TSD

sounds like fun

What she said! Love the dogs that can save you like that - my Kirra is the opposite - she'll drop me in it whenever she feels like it - and then bites me to tell me off for not handling properly

Oh if only there was video The lad will turn on a dime for me although it was an amazing collection of stride that saved my front cross on this occasion. My instructor expected nothing less than a collision and a tangle of legs but Zig came to my rescue yet again. How else do you think we manage any passes

[Kavik]

Slow progress with the bang game. Elbie's banging away madly on the plank of wood on top of a pipe that is on the ground but he skitters away from it. It has taken me days and he still keeps running to the side of it - he hates the wonky instability of it. Tonight I managed to get him to walk up it halfway and then go into a drop but it's going to be a long time before I can get him to run along the length of it. Did anyone else's dog take a long time to master see-saw? He desperately wants to do it but he just can't overcome his dislike of a wobbley plank ...

Zoe is really bad with movement under her feet too. I can get her to push the seesaw down with her front feet and then hop on but I can't get her to stay on if I lift it up and drop it (elevator part of the game) which I can do with Kaos. One other way you could try (but will be difficult at a club) is to have two tables of different heights under the seesaw, so the drop is only very small to start with. With Zoe I got down to one table (haven't had the seesaw out in a while, also she is now nearly 12 years, so I don't know how much more I will try to do with her).

A wobble board that is square may be a good idea, so it looks nothing like a plank or piece of agility equipment, and you can work on shaping him to be on it and to make it move and stay on it.