Agility Training Talk Thread

[Kavik]

I used a target, got the behaviour I wanted on the target, moved to end of plank, once he was doing it reliably on plank, get rid of target and on stimulus control/cue. Then on end of equipment. I am still working with plank as he is not as independent as I would like, especially going ahead of me to find his position.

When putting your 2o2o on the equipment, start with just the end - for the A-Frame get them to go into position from the side instead of the whole obstacle. That should help with teaching them how to get into the right position. Once they can do that, try to get access to a lowered one for a while until they get the hang of it.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

The "simple way" I'm experimenting with at the moment involves a small square of artificial grass that they were giving away at my local sand and gravel (and termiturf) retailer, with a piece of food on it. Previously I have experimented with treats on top of lids of varying sort. I like the cream pot lids because they're clear but they tend to blow away. Jam jar lids are better at staying put. But anything that involves a treat on top - is fraught with the problem of treat theft without the desired contact.

Variation of the food on the lid thing is the nose touch - taught with food reward to hand, and then I could put a lid of some sort in my hand and get the nose touch on that and reward with the food to the lid in the hand...

Anyway, I don't know of any way that doesn't involve the opportunity to do a few runs at a (flatter than usual) scramble, and rewarding on the spot when contact is achieved. And somebody to prevent treat theft if contact is not achieved.

So that requires a negotation with my instructor.

PS I watched someone else put a little bit of carpet out, with no treat, and she clicked her dog if it went in the general direction of the carpet, whether she got contact on the obstacle or the carpet or not. Which didn't seen terribly clever training to me. Ie she wasn't rewarding "average or better", and as I would expect, the dog got less reliable about going near the carpet or making contact. I couldn't figure out her criteria and neither could her dog.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[Kavik]

I think any way you teach a stopped contact you need to teach the dog how to get its body in the right position - weight shift, balance, how to slow down etc, or they will not know how to stay on the obstacle in that position (with say your example of the target with food on top.) If you just put that at the bottom of the obstacle, if you haven't done any work on a plank or stairs or at least the bottom of the obstacle where they have to figure out how to get into and stay into position they are likely to not know how to stick the position and will come off.

[Agility Dogs]

I think any way you teach a stopped contact you need to teach the dog how to get its body in the right position - weight shift, balance, how to slow down etc, or they will not know how to stay on the obstacle in that position (with say your example of the target with food on top.) If you just put that at the bottom of the obstacle, if you haven't done any work on a plank or stairs or at least the bottom of the obstacle where they have to figure out how to get into and stay into position they are likely to not know how to stick the position and will come off.

The other thing they need to understand is where the back end is. You can see dogs that understand how to transfer their weight and those who understand their end position, but not their body.

I can REALLY see the difference between my puppy and my older 2 dogs. The little one has done rear end awareness exercises from day on - the other two started later in life.

Teaming the two things is a great way to go!

[sheena]

So what kind of contact behaviours do you guys use for scramble?

I have a basic understanding of how to get a 2o2o and maybe a nose touch on the ground (transfered from a hand touch) for the dog walk and a convenient plank that I ought to set up (was going to use it for getting into the back of the car which is very high). Would teaching her to target a ball on a stick help?

But the problem with the scramble is the angle of it - ie her back end tends to over take the front end if I do manage to persuade her to come to the bottom of it without jumping off (eg food lure).

I guess I'd mostly just like her to run down to the bottom of it and not leap off from more than half way up.

I still use 2o/2o for the A-frame and teach it like others have mentioned - just using a plank angled on the stairs.

Ziggy has had trouble sticking his A-frame contacts of late. At training it has been so wet that he's been slipping and struggling to stop his hind legs overtaking him so I've not stressed about it too much - you can't NRM a dog for what it physically is struggling with. What I am working on is some more hind leg strength and awareness - so begging (which is very hard for his longer frame), more perch work and I'll add walking backwards when I have a little time to spare.

Can you lower the A-frame to reduce the angle??? That's what I will do if I need to - and have a private lesson if necessary to access the equipment.

That's what I have done & she has learnt to run right to the end every time even at proper height in trials. I also taught the 2o2o with the stairs using a clicker & shaping.

[kelpiechick]

Variation of the food on the lid thing is the nose touch - taught with food reward to hand, and then I could put a lid of some sort in my hand and get the nose touch on that and reward with the food to the lid in the hand...

Nose touching a target and putting food on a target are not variations of one another but totally different methodologies in that putting food on a target for the dog to move to and then eat is a BIG FAT LURE.

SG would send lightning bolts your way for even mentioning them in the same breath.

I would recommend purchasing SG's foundation training notes as she goes through using a nose touch to a target in extreme detail in here and breaks it down into very easy to understand step by step.

In a nutshell, the dog never moves to the target, behaviour is transferred from hand to disc, then onto the flat, then on contact board, before putting target at end of steps - dropped in between dog's legs in correct position and then cued for behaviour. (Same thing should be happening on contact board)

Target is also faded on the steps before end behaviour goes to lowered contact - so if you have a couple of steps and a board at home you can train the whole end behaviour before going onto equipment, and you won't need your target either.

(Although it may have to be dropped in a few times when you do get onto lowered equipment to help dog generalise- only when backchaining end position though, dog never runs to disc as it then becomes a lure - them's SG's rules anyway.)

I don't believe a dog trained with food on target as a lure is thinking at all about their body and end behaviour, all they are doing is adapting their body position in such a way to be able to grab the food, which is all they are thinking about and consequently makes the target/lure very hard to fade.

Edited July 23, 2011 by kelpiechick

[Kavik]

Where can you get the foundation training notes? I didn't get them for the seminar last year and they sound helpful.

Had success with our contact training today! A break in the weather so I got my plank out, stood Kaos at one end with me next to him, gave cue 'target' and he went to the other end and did his pounce into 2o2o position - ahead of me while I stayed still getting there, but still lots more work to do, especially on equipment (if this rain ever stops so I can go to training!)

[The Spotted Devil]

Agree with kelpiechick And I'm not a strict SG follower either - just think it makes good training sense.

[kelpiechick]

Where can you get the foundation training notes? I didn't get them for the seminar last year and they sound helpful.

The last contact I had for them was to email : [email protected]

Even if someone else is organising them now, I'm sure Penny will point you in the right direction.

[skip]

Some methods of teaching contacts don't need club equipment till the end.

I think I learnt like Kavik basically. Mrs Rusty Bucket --your method might also be hard to the dog as kelpiechick points out.

In case this helps make it clearer....one method our club uses

First we had a square of plastic (plastic clear as it is easier to fade!). Taught dog to nose touch square (target) anywhere. Had in hand but used to get dog really excited and keen to touch that target in any position!

At the same time we were teaching superfast drops by using food in our hand and dropping the dog at our side. (both sides of course)

Next step would be placing the target on the ground with the dog at our side. The dog ( as it has been practising) should drop as the arm goes down and he is asked to nose touch the target. We did this until the dog would drop on the target and give one or multiple nose touches as requested until asked to release.

Then we introduced a travel board which is easy to make. The whole procedure is repeated but now the dog is asked to walk on the board and then do targeting at the end of the board. Repeated both sides and also with the handler in different places. Before we even started using equipment the dogs are released from any place and they should drive to the end of a board and target.

When the dog knows the position we would simply remove the square of clear plastic and the dog barely noticed. My chi still drops and starts giving multiple nose touches when she is trying to get my attention or a treat.

The rest is easier as you move onto longer boards instead of travel planks. I used a longer piece of wood at home and a shorter piece that I sometimes took to trials and used at the back of my car to remind one dog of his contacts before we ran. Just backchain the contact part of the behaviour. Our club did this using a board from the dog walk but you could do it yourself.

Continue backchaining the behaviour on low dog walk plank and one piece of the A frame until dog is maintaining their contact behaviour at all heights.

This method didn't need much equipment time until the end. I was lucky in that my club has a very experienced trainer who follows a very structured training system. At trials we were asked to always get the contact even if we had to stop and go back. Some others with more drivey dogs than mine had dogs who were simply awesome at stopping on those contacts. Two in particular were very impressive and used to get a audience.

I wasn't taught contacts originally as i was told my dogs are small and didn't need them. Which isn't true as even small dogs can jump off contacts. So since getting more training I did teach them. Only to find as the dogs went further in agility that time is harder to get. And my little one is uncertain so I just let them run. With their size I can get away with it. But my next dog will be bigger and hopefully faster so I would teach contacts this way again.

Has anyone used a method to teach running contacts. CleanRun has put some forward and I wonder if they will be a thing for the future. The automatic treat release machine looks like fun! ;) .

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think I didn't explain that very well

I am copying SG's targetting for nose touch on the hand method. So the food reward doesn't appear in the hand until after I've got one or more successful touches. SG has a system where she tries to lob the treat directly in the hand by way of reward (not lure), but I'm not that co-ordinated.

So what I've seen done is when you've got nice touches to the hand, you then put a lid your hand and get nose touches on that - and reward (not lure) the same way.

I don't start with the food in my hand.

Though the treat on the grass is a lure. Except that first time she bee lined to the treat and ate it, when we did the run after that, I got contact but there was no treat until she got onto the table (we've been having trouble with that too).

That was one of the best things I learned from SG - the difference between a lure and a reward. It is embarrasing to discover one does not have a dog who knows what "sit" means. She's still context specific on that one. I still get the "don't be stupid, oh all right then" look at the back door before I open it for her.

[OSoSwift]

Wondering if anyone knows where I could find some course maps for novice agility courses please

[Tassie]

Keith and Le have some of their courses

here

There should be some Novice agility among them - just to get you started :D

[koalathebear]

Elbie has been weaving quite nicely at agility despite only getting to practise once a week - he seems to have finally understood that the objective is to weave so he's weaving on the slanted poles and also weaving on the long upright poles quite well. He has been weaving quite fast which is good although only when I'm on his right so I have been practising on his left as well and ahead of him.

We finally got around to buying ourselves some tomato stakes, PVC and a mallet and set up the weavers in the backyard - just six. Elbie weaved through them correctly but he was very timid, very tentative, ears back and seemed very unhappy about them for some reason. He was also incredibly slow going through them. After lots of praise, treats and running around he was going through them at a slightly faster pace but definitely nowhere near the speed and confidence of how he does in class.

OH thinks that perhaps he's a bit wigged out by six sticks suddenly appearing in his backyard and he's not sure what they are and why they're there. Has anyone else ever experienced this? Elbie's always been a bit of a sensitive emo!dog so it's possible he's put out by Alien Objects in the backyard. Should I have just walked him through two or three poles to start with? Thanks in advance!

Hoover by contrast, has just turned one and hasn't received any agility training so I was just walking him around three weave poles to see how he went. He was extremely happy with them and by the time he had finished breakfast, he understood how to weave through three poles. He didn't seem fussed by Alien Objects in the yard at all.

Edited July 30, 2011 by koalathebear

[SpotTheDog]

This is agility related, but possibly not the way the rest of this thread is, but I just wanted to say I want to hug the woman who ran today's agility class.

She said to me at the end that she knew I was disheartened, and not to worry, I could work with the other trainer and she'd help me with the basics.

To clarify, I can get a sit, lie down, sit up again, stay, don't touch the treat until you're told, shake hands, jump for the treat - all solid commands at home, and in my yard, and reasonable when out on walks, but put us around other dogs, and my boy pretends he's never seen me or heard 'sit' in his life.

It was excellent, because today was a BAAAAAAAAD day for me and the dog. He was feral for the entire class - jumping at the other dogs, pulling my arms near out of my sockets, refusing point blank to look at me. Gus isn't food driven at all, in any way (which was funny because by the time the fifth class member had approached me with their treats that he'd "definitely go for", he refusal to even consider the food, even when it was literally put in his mouth, was a talking point).

Gus is like a football jock - great size and shape for agility, body of muscle, fit, healthy, and - God love him - as thick as two short planks with the attention span of a gnat. (Everyone at class is so sweet, because Gus is sweet natured - they think he's gorgeous, but will openly joke about him being an airhead. Poor big dumb oaf.)

I have a lot of work to do (how the fark do you motivate a dog who'll willingly starve himself for a day or two if he's not completely happy with what's going on in his day?), but it's just so reassuring to know that the club is willing to stick with me, and don't want me gone because we're disruptive.

Had a bit of a breakthrough today I think - Gus doesn't respond to any food, toys (including squeaky ones), tug o war ropes, balls, or any of the other standard dog motivators. He also doesn't respond much to praise - unless I carry on like a complete squealing nutjob. I tried it today, and it seems to work, but if anyone has any other ideas, they're most welcome.

[Tiggy]

Has anyone worked through the Rachel Sanders Pre-Sports Puppy DVD? I started on her hands on control today and boy oh boy my dogs haven't been handled enough. I'm exhausted! :D I did get them calmly accepting it though and it's a good one for starting the release cue.

[SpotTheDog]

I have a lot of work to do (how the fark do you motivate a dog who'll willingly starve himself for a day or two if he's not completely happy with what's going on in his day?), but it's just so reassuring to know that the club is willing to stick with me, and don't want me gone because we're disruptive.

One week on: ROCKSTAR. Paying attention, sit-stay, bit of bouncing but hey that's the dog, jumps, waits, using a long lead, and he did the tunnel!! Repeatedly, and with great gusto near the end!!

So pleased.

Dog also loved it - at one point in the class he barked at me solidly for five minutes. This is a dog who's barked less than 10 times in total in the year I've owned him. Guess who was excited?

[sheena]

Has anyone worked through the Rachel Sanders Pre-Sports Puppy DVD? I started on her hands on control today and boy oh boy my dogs haven't been handled enough. I'm exhausted! :D I did get them calmly accepting it though and it's a good one for starting the release cue.

We've been working our way through it with the new puppy, also trying it out on the older dog too...makes us realise just how much foundation training she missed out on as a pup.

[Loves Dogs]

Different strokes for different folks (or dogs) I'd say Vickie.

Run each to get the best from them. I think its easier for us if we run our dogs in the same manner but I think each dog deserves the handling that gets the best from it.

Well said

[RubyStar]

Has anyone worked through the Rachel Sanders Pre-Sports Puppy DVD? I started on her hands on control today and boy oh boy my dogs haven't been handled enough. I'm exhausted! :D I did get them calmly accepting it though and it's a good one for starting the release cue.

So you'd recommend the DVD then? I'm looking for some more foundation stuff to do with the new pup that I never did with my two. Started watching Success With One Jump the other night and thought it looked good! But I need some real puppy type stuff. Pup is almost 9 weeks old