Agility Training Talk Thread

[toshman]

Corvus, is the collar grab to build opposition reflex or just to line him up straight ?

Mostly I just want to line him up straight before he goes, and as far as I'm aware that was the purpose for doing it at training.

I've been thinking about a tab and even looking around for one, but haven't seen any. Does anybody know where to get them?

Perhaps you could consider getting him into place by using hand touches instead of grabbing his collar???

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Corvus

The collar grab is about revving the dog up and also about lining him up and about "resetting" or "refocussing" between repeats. Ie if you don't put a bit of time into placing the dog before sending again, they get confused about where the exercise begins and ends.

Similar effect with "charging a clicker" eg you need to click before you treat for it to be effective but if you string the repetitions too close is the click before or after the treat ie treat click treat click doesn't work.

So same deal with the 2x2 weaving. You need to reset the dog's position between each run or failed run. And especially with a failed run or it will be confused about what is good and what isn't.

So my ACDx isn't very fond of collar grab either and is shaping me not to do it. But I am trying to counter shape ie every treat comes after a collar grab, and I try to do the collar grab slowly as much as possible but she's much better and it is handy especially if a nasty dog or toddler (assume sensitive protective parent) comes on the scene.

But I don't always reset with a collar grab. Sometimes I just make her heel a circle around me so we finish lined up and sometimes I physically pick her up and line her up the way I want her pointing. When you get to working the arc - it's not so much which way the dog points as how you point ie with your arm nearest the dog point towards the end you want her/him going in... and then s/he needs to figure out which way correctly ie always have the poles the same way and reward on the same side while there are only two poles. I found this very confusing but it helps if you have seen Greg Derrett's Agility foundation CD (and maybe the next one) to explain how you signal the dog. SG assumes this knowledge for 2x2 weaving.

And I've been doing loads and loads of wait release runs for tug toy which has helped immensely with recall. Last time she stopped to sniff possum poo I put my arm up in the ready position and got her attention and said go and ran away and she came right off the possum poo...hooray. I haven't got a good send away yet. Still haven't really figured that one out. I have made some jumps finally out of 10 litre cardboard water cask boxes and broom poles. Seem to work well.

Hmm, time to go to agility class already.

[ness]

What about asking for a hand touch to reset corvus instead of the collar grab.

[kelpiechick]

Oops wrong thread so deleted.

Blonde attack, LOL.

Edited February 16, 2011 by kelpiechick

[corvus]

I talked to my instructor last night about it and we think it's best for now to just keep working on his collar grabs. I didn't want to cue anything in front of the equipment because I thought I wanted my dog to be cued BY the equipment being in front of him. My instructors must have taught me well, because that's what they said, too. It is currently definitely slowing him down and making him more nervous than he otherwise would be, but I think I would prefer to try to get through it if possible rather than switching to other cues. I'm just going to approach it like training any other behaviour. I'm going to put "get your collar in my hand" on cue and hope that he comes to like it enough to overcome what damage I've already done. He's doing it inside already, so perhaps I got onto it before it made much of an impact on him. Baby steps.

[poodlefan]

I talked to my instructor last night about it and we think it's best for now to just keep working on his collar grabs. I didn't want to cue anything in front of the equipment because I thought I wanted my dog to be cued BY the equipment being in front of him. My instructors must have taught me well, because that's what they said, too. It is currently definitely slowing him down and making him more nervous than he otherwise would be, but I think I would prefer to try to get through it if possible rather than switching to other cues. I'm just going to approach it like training any other behaviour. I'm going to put "get your collar in my hand" on cue and hope that he comes to like it enough to overcome what damage I've already done. He's doing it inside already, so perhaps I got onto it before it made much of an impact on him. Baby steps.

I would try a tab lead. It makes for a less intimidating grab.

[Vickie]

I talked to my instructor last night about it and we think it's best for now to just keep working on his collar grabs. I didn't want to cue anything in front of the equipment because I thought I wanted my dog to be cued BY the equipment being in front of him. My instructors must have taught me well, because that's what they said, too. It is currently definitely slowing him down and making him more nervous than he otherwise would be, but I think I would prefer to try to get through it if possible rather than switching to other cues. I'm just going to approach it like training any other behaviour. I'm going to put "get your collar in my hand" on cue and hope that he comes to like it enough to overcome what damage I've already done. He's doing it inside already, so perhaps I got onto it before it made much of an impact on him. Baby steps.

are you planning to continue to do the equipment with the collar grabs? Might be better to not use the collar grab in front of equip till you have it sorted out.

What do you mean you want the dog cued by the equipment?

[Vickie]

A collar grab is about employing a dogs opposition reflex to build anticipation and encourage forward drive. It's the same thing that makes a dog pull on lead.

You do not have to use a collar to do this, standing behind a dog with your arms around it's chest or hips will achieve the same result. Only issue tends to be that dogs who are uncomfortable being held by the collar will often have issues with such close physical contact as well. If it truly is just about the collar & not about the relationship, the above will work just as well.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Vickie

[Kavik]

A collar grab is about employing a dogs opposition reflex to build anticipation and encourage forward drive. It's the same thing that makes a dog pull on lead.

You do not have to use a collar to do this, standing behind a dog with your arms around it's chest or hips will achieve the same result. Only issue tends to be that dogs who are uncomfortable being held by the collar will often have issues with such close physical contact as well. If it truly is just about the collar & not about the relationship, the above will work just as well.

I have done this with Kaos as well - it works well :D For restrained recalls and some send aways (though I now use collar for send aways and sending over equipment). I do send aways somewhat differently now, but here is a video of what I used to do (inspired by ob/schH type sends, the kind I do now are more inspired by agility type sends)

The thing I have had more problems with is trying to get someone else to restrain him eg restrained recalls with someone other than OH. I managed to get Kaos comfortable with someone else restraining him while at the 5 day Susan Garrett seminar as had a lot of time to practice but not sure how well that generalised to other people. Interestingly Diesel has no issue with this and will happily pull on restraint from a stranger for restrained recalls. But from my experience Kelpies are more likely to have an issue with being restrained.

[corvus]

are you planning to continue to do the equipment with the collar grabs? Might be better to not use the collar grab in front of equip till you have it sorted out.

I said that to my instructor and she didn't seem to think it was that big a deal. Mind you, when we were talking about this she had just seen him quite happily release from a collar hold and run through a couple of open weaves and tug at the end a few times. Different story later on. I did snap up that snub leash in member marketplace. I think it will help keep my collar grabs low. He's not so sensitive if my arm doesn't go over his head or flash in his peripheral vision.

Anyway, so I'm not sure if it's in front of the equipment that we have a problem or just when he's particularly excited in general. I wanted to do some counter conditioning in front of the equipment, but my instructor wasn't keen on the idea of having him in front of the equipment and not having him go through promptly. I think the jury was out on that one. I have to do something because there IS a problem and whether it's equipment or excitement it's happening in front of the equipment most. I'm inclined to think he just needs to practise collar grabs near the equipment a little. My guess is whether I get his collar or get his body the effect will be much the same at the moment.

What do you mean you want the dog cued by the equipment?

We're taught that the dog's job is to do whatever obstacle is in front of him and it's our job to steer him to the right one.

[Perdy]

Hey all!

Has anyone bought/used one of these? http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...p;ParentCat=124

If so what did you think of it? Do you think a Dane would be able to get the treat out quickly or would Sash spend too long trying to take it for it to be useful?

[pie]

I gave Trixie a break from the weave training because she hurt her feet, we got back into it last night, she was at 2 sets of six, now she is doing 12 poles :thumsup: so exciting Still needs a lot of work though Woohoo!

[Tassie]

I gave Trixie a break from the weave training because she hurt her feet, we got back into it last night, she was at 2 sets of six, now she is doing 12 poles :thumsup: so exciting Still needs a lot of work though Woohoo!

IT's fun, isn;t it - and amazing the latent learning that takes place when they have a break. Clever Trixie

[RubyStar]

Well done Trixie I don't think it matters how long your dog has been weaving for, I still find it pretty special to watch as it certainly isn't a natural behaviour for a dog!

I discovered why Ruby lags so much while weaving... me I go slow to run beside her, so she slows down, then I slow down, and the cycle continues. I tried running flat out past them this week and I could see her pick her speed up to catch up with me Sometimes she pulled out a bit early as I got too far ahead but a few reps and she was starting to stay in there while continuing picking up the speed

Then there are Millie's weaves (she has been weaving all 12 for a bit now, woohoo!!)... she has a completely different style to Ruby, very interesting to watch the 2 dogs weave differently. Ruby kind of one step/two steps them (I need to work on that part of the 2x2 dvd that encourages one stepping) and Millie kind of hops through them with both feet in a lower crouched position (and with a bit of speed, too... well, for a Lab!)

Edited February 18, 2011 by RubyStar

[piper]

Then there are Millie's weaves (she has been weaving all 12 for a bit now, woohoo!!)... she has a completely different style to Ruby, very interesting to watch the 2 dogs weave differently. Ruby kind of one step/two steps them (I need to work on that part of the 2x2 dvd that encourages one stepping)

This is what Jazz is doing at the moment as well.

I have to say the 2x2 method has impressed me so far. I can't believe the entries I can get. All up I went from a dog who had not seen weavers to 1 weaving 12 poles on both sides, at good (not yet great)speed with independant entries from almost anywhere in about 1 month. Susan Garrett says 12 poles in 12 days, by the time I take out the days we missed out due to the heat or only had 1 session for the day I don't think it took Jazz much longer than that.

Now the proofing begins, and also working on single stepping. Oh and making some jumps so we can work on entering from other obstacles.

[OSoSwift]

Can you wonderful DOLers please share with me the way you train the seesaw. I know of one method but want to make sure that it is the best way for the dogs we are training at the moment. I have the two Whippets, there is a little Stafford and a Goldie.

Many thanks

[J...]

Can you wonderful DOLers please share with me the way you train the seesaw. I know of one method but want to make sure that it is the best way for the dogs we are training at the moment. I have the two Whippets, there is a little Stafford and a Goldie.

Many thanks ;)

I start with my dog getting used to stuff moving under their feet i.e. wobble board or even a balance disk.

Once they are making a big game out of that, ensuring that they are moving the board themselves confidently then I start getting them used to the sounds of a banging seesaw. I've already started them on 2o2o at the end of a plank by this stage so they are confident with jumping on and off a short plank.

Then I start bang game - holding the seesaw about an inch off the ground and encouraging them to get on it and then letting it go - big reward for that one. Work my way up to holding it higher and higher, I want to have them deliberately jumping on the end of the seesaw to drop it out of my hands to get the "bang".

Ideally I would be also having a seesaw propped on two tables, having them run up and down the board with a little fall, progressing through to full height. I don't have that luxury so once I had Zee fully confident on dogwalk and having no issues with dropping the seesaw from mid-thigh height I put her on the seesaw and let her go for it, keeping a hand on it just to make sure she didn't fall off or get bounced off. She's now doing full height seesaw.

That's over a period of several months, on and off training given my very limited access to gear lately. Take your time - have them get used the sound of a strange seesaw if you can manage it - even stand outside a trial ring that has a seesaw and reward the bang. I've seen advanced dogs get a scare due to the different falls/sounds/flex/grip of a different seesaw and have trouble in the trial ring for quite a while. Far better to take the time it takes to do it properly

Edited February 19, 2011 by Jess.

[OSoSwift]

Thank you.

When you say you hold the seesaw a small distance off the ground and get them to jump on and bang, they obviously are doing that on the low end just above the ground, but do you get them to put two feet on or jump all four feet on??

Both mine will happily put the two front feet on firmly and wait to be told to go but I am not sure they would jump on as I have always taught two front feet then go.

[J...]

Zee drags the board down with her front two feet, bangs the board then hops her back feet into position. I'm happy with that and personally don't see the need to take it to 4 feet at once or extreme bang game. To me it's about 1) getting them confident and happy with the bang and 2) teaching them that they have control of it.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Jess.

[OSoSwift]

Okay that sounds good. Will give that a go.

I have an a-frame set up at home and about to get the dog walk to do the same but will have limited access to a seesaw unless I can convince OH to make one.