Cosmolo Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I just wanted to clarify a few things regarding Bundys run. Owners are given an opportunity to do one round at the end of a workshop- they aren't thrown into one round with no prior teaching- i just didn't video all of the other stuff! Dogs are gently introduced to each piece of equipment- if there are issues, the dog does something more basic until they are comfortable and wouldn't include that equipment in the course run. I understand and respect the opinions on the lead issue, i really do. But i have a different position- agillity improves focus and reliability so i don't always believe every dog needs to be 100% reliable off lead before commencing. The aim is to get the lead off as soon as possible but i will not let a dog off until i know they won't take off. I believe this is responsible- i understand others feel differently. The weavers can't be pegged- we deliberately bought weavers that weren't in ground as we work on an indoor surface at times and weavers can't be pegged- they seem to be getting less secure as time goes on though so this will be rectified. Nobody planned for them to fall! The see saw can't be adjusted either and no dog goes over by themselves until we are confident- there are still 2 people holding both dog and see saw in the video- i have never had a problem teaching this way, but i understand others feel differently. I absolutely respect the opinions of those who posted here, but with the exception of a few things (like the weaver issue) my opinion differs. Any ideas on how to fix the weavers (without getting in ground ones) would be welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 What about heavy metal bases cosmolo? They'd have to be pretty heavy though, I know the metal bases at our club still need to be pegged, especially for trialing dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Where would i get them from amypie? I did look for them when we bought all of our new equipment as i had trained with similar before but couldn't find anything like that anywhere. Thanks for the suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundyburger Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Bundy's focus on me, is normally for oh, about 5 minutes at a time, before he's off in lala land. Never have I had him so focused on me as when we were doing the agility workshop. As I said before, I had the lead on because I didn't trust that his focus on me would stay, as he's never been so switched on before. He is the type of dog that if a random dog walks past, he will immediately stop what he's doing to go and play... but on Sunday he didn't even look once. I also knew if I didn't, he would be rushing ahead, as he was actively seeking out the next obstacle all ready to go for it, and I wanted to be sure he was in control at all times. I will definitely get a short tab lead though for the future in case i need it, but I don't think i will if his focus stays that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) A lot of the dogs in our beginners class stay on leash most of the time - but we only do basic foundation stuff, and jumps are set at the lowest height possible. BM he must really enjoy agility! I am looking forward to seeing how he progresses I agree with amy's suggestion of the metal weavers, that's what we have to train the 2x2 stuff and I've never needed to peg them. Edited February 15, 2011 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I don't think you will need a lead next time either BM- but a short lead would be a good in between step i think- then its there just in case you need it. I think i will get OH to make some that we can use for the dogs not yet reliable off lead too- the problem will be having enough different lengths for all the different dog sizes but should be able to have a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I just wanted to clarify a few things regarding Bundys run. Owners are given an opportunity to do one round at the end of a workshop- they aren't thrown into one round with no prior teaching- i just didn't video all of the other stuff! Dogs are gently introduced to each piece of equipment- if there are issues, the dog does something more basic until they are comfortable and wouldn't include that equipment in the course run. I'm confused. One round at the end of the workshop???? Does that mean that the dogs have prior agility experience before being allowed to do a workshop with equipment ? It's good that they are gently introduced to each piece of equipment - so does that mean that they have completed agility foundation class of an absolute minimum of 3 months - and that really is a minimum - to learn how to follow handling cues and to introduce all the handling moves that will be needed to run a course on the flat first. Sorry if I've interpreted this incorrectly and got the wrong end of the stick. Watching this reminded me of how I was taught agility 11 years ago - luckily it wasn't too scary as I am still here to tell the tale - but I am amazed that this type of instruction still exists with the wealth of information about foundation training and its benefits that is readily available. It makes me sad as Victoria already has the reputation in the agility community of being behind the other states and this does nothing to dispel the theory. Dogs on lead doing obstacles are an accident waiting to happen. Dogs doing equipment with minimal foundation training are an accident waiting to happen. It doesn't matter whether you want to do agility just for fun or want to become a little more serious about it, the safety issues are exactly the same. Bundy's Mum this is by no means meant as a criticism of you - I think your dog did an amazing job, as did you, and I hope you can find a club where you will learn a proper foundation first before being allowed to attempt any more obstacles. let alone be allowed to string them together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) Any ideas on how to fix the weavers (without getting in ground ones) would be welcome. Sandbags at the beginning and end? If the dog doesn't have to step over them it should work. Can the bases be weighted by adding something inside the pipe? I would never recommend handlers be taught to guide their dogs through them in the "push/pull" method. The dog should be learning to complete every obstacle independent of handler guidance from the get go and its a hard enough obstacle to teach without starting in that method. That means using channels, angled weavers or guides or 2 x 2 and getting the handler out of the picture from the start. We all have opinions on how to train but any method that relies on the handler guiding the completion of the obstacle is going to be hard to undo as speed and distance are required. The lead issue is neatly solved at our club. Any dog that can't demonstate focus under distracton and a recall doesn't get to train. Wrapping leads around jump uprights, bars and weavers is unsafe. The temptation to use the lead to guide the dog is almost irresistable and the possibility of checking the dog as it jumps is real. A tab is sufficient for a handler to hold between sets on all but the smallest dogs anyway. You can even get stretchy ones that don't dangle or tangle the dog. I don't agree with dogs being "held" or guided by a lead at any stage. It's too easy to compel even subtlely. We start see saw with a table under one end or both to lower the angle and the dog is never guided over - only lured. Its always hands off. All contacts are taught with a contact strategy before they get to full height too. I have heavy metal bases with wider support parts that don't intefere with the stride of the dog. Edited February 15, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Where would i get them from amypie? I did look for them when we bought all of our new equipment as i had trained with similar before but couldn't find anything like that anywhere. Thanks for the suggestion. You will probably have to get someone to make them specifically for you. Makes me wonder what do people in the US use for their indoor arenas? I've never noticed before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I respectfully disagree. I absolutely agree that foundation training is important. I disagree that introducing obstacles (as a way to see if dog and owner like it and assessing where they are at and what will require the most focus) at an early point is a bad thing. Please don't get me wrong- i do understand where you are coming from but i think differently. I have clients who do agility once every 2 or 3 months and others who do so more regularly. Regardless- every dog and handler is taught new handling skills each time before we do anything remotely complex. There is no way i could get the committment fron 90% of people to regularly complete agility and do 3 months of foundation training. I know some would say- then they shouldn't get to do it- but again, i disagree. Dogs on lead are problematic. Dogs running off and endangering themselves or others is also problematic. Dogs doing equipment with 2 people holding them and helping them are a disaster? I disagree. Dogs were not going hell for leather without assistance or help and handlers received assistance before, during and after to ensure the dogs progress was positive. I have been to a number of agility classes (at various clubs) where leads were on and dogs were on equipment (heavily supervised) night one. I have not seen a dog scarred by this- i appreciate that others have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Cosmolo - I'm sure I've seen a website that sells metal base weave poles in VIC - will try to find it for you - thought I had it bookmarked but doesn't appear to the case. With the seesaw - I wouldn't introduce to full height for a while - certainly not first lesson, even if you have people holding it, but that is my opinion, my first dog never got confident on the seesaw due to how it was taught and her temperament. If you can't adjust the size, you can place a table under one end so it is flat and the seesaw doesn't have as far to go. Even better, you can start with simply the Bang Game to get them used to the idea of the tip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Owners were taught to lure weavers. Guiding with the lead was not directed by a trainer- the lead was moved above the weavers as not to tangle when we started- i appreciate that didn't happen in the video. I disagree with regards to completely hands off- we lure everything but for contact equipment we do hold the dog to start with. It would not matter to me how much foundation training had been done, i would still want to support the dog their first few times on full size equipment. The techniques i learned are a combination of what i learned from well respected trainers in WA (some time ago) with more recent experience. I respect that not everyone will agree with any method of training, but its what we have found most succesful given a wide range of factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Thanks Kavik- the first video is a great idea. The second video (which i have seen before) i am not convinced about. I really think that has potential to scare the dog more than someone guiding the see saw down to earth? Is that something you would introduce later down the track? I had planned to with one of my dogs but didn't think he was ready yet so interested in your thoughts on when you would introduce this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I personally think that doing a few things confidently and at full speed is much more beneficial (and fun!) than trying to do everything very slowly and hesistantly. I understand that not everyone desires to compete, but even if it is just for fun it is more fun and much less frustrating to do less things at a time and get better at them. The weaves are the most complicated piece of equipment. I don't find luring the weaves fun and it does not teach the dog understanding of the obstacle or independence or speed. It is all of these things that makes watching a good weaver impressive and takes your breath away. Slanted poles are not difficult to set up and can help to teach all of these things bar entries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I respectfully disagree. I absolutely agree that foundation training is important. I disagree that introducing obstacles (as a way to see if dog and owner like it and assessing where they are at and what will require the most focus) at an early point is a bad thing. Please don't get me wrong- i do understand where you are coming from but i think differently. I have clients who do agility once every 2 or 3 months and others who do so more regularly. Regardless- every dog and handler is taught new handling skills each time before we do anything remotely complex. There is no way i could get the committment fron 90% of people to regularly complete agility and do 3 months of foundation training. I know some would say- then they shouldn't get to do it- but again, i disagree. Dogs on lead are problematic. Dogs running off and endangering themselves or others is also problematic. Dogs doing equipment with 2 people holding them and helping them are a disaster? I disagree. Dogs were not going hell for leather without assistance or help and handlers received assistance before, during and after to ensure the dogs progress was positive. I have been to a number of agility classes (at various clubs) where leads were on and dogs were on equipment (heavily supervised) night one. I have not seen a dog scarred by this- i appreciate that others have. I'd say NSW/ACT are using more advanced training methods. No leads on anywhere here, no harnesses either. Flat collars only. The problem with the 'hands on' teaching method is that it fails to teach the dog what it needs to do to trial. That means independent completion of obtacles on both sides of the hander (not just on the left) at distance and at speed. If all people want to do is to have a bit of fun and have no intention of getting serious then 'hands on' LHS only handling is fine. If they want to trial then they'll be starting from scratch and having to retrain the dog. Touch a dog on an agility course and you'll be disqualified. I am of the view that you don't help handlers by teaching them using methods that can't be used or have to be unlearned down the track. Far to easy to "handle" to compel also. I'm teaching level 1 classes at the moment. After 3 weeks, dogs are being released by handlers to run ahead to a targetted obstacle and to wait until released to run over an obstacle to the handler. They are learning to jump both away from and towards the handler, to take up a desired contact position independent of handler position and to handle on both sides on the flat. No full height obstacles of any kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) This is how I did the Bang Game at first - not as intense as the other video Now I can hold it at about flat while he jumps on and then I drop it and he rides it down to land in 2o2o position, but it took a while to get to that stage. ETA: you are teaching the dog that it controls the tip and how to ride it down and not be scared. You start with the seesaw low with little tip and as the dog gains confidence you raise the tip til they are confident with you dropping the seesaw from full height.. Edited February 15, 2011 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundyburger Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Owners were taught to lure weavers. Guiding with the lead was not directed by a trainer- the lead was moved above the weavers as not to tangle when we started- i appreciate that didn't happen in the video. Nope, it didn't because I stuffed up, which I already mentioned as you know . I can assure you Kavik that he had absolutely zero issues with being on the seesaw, he willingly marched up there and stood happily. Whilst it may not be the done thing for a lot of people, it certainly didn't bother Bundy, he was perfectly happy. If there was any concern for his safety or if it was thought attempting exercises wasn't a good idea, then we wouldn't have done it, we were guided by his behaviour on the day, and he wasn't forced to do anything he didn't choose to do, and it was all done carefully under supervision and guidance. There is no way I would do anything detrimental to my dog, and we have been going to Underdog for about a year now, so I trust their judgement on how things were done and don't have a problem, if anything the problems you see were caused by handler issues by me. So can we agree to disagree and move on now? It wasn't my intention to post to have training methods criticised or for Tamara to have to come in and explain why they do what they do, I was purely proud of my dog and wanted to share. That one day has improved Bundy's all round focus out of sight, he has just been getting better and better and it's only been two days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) I understand the rules PF- 99% of people in my classes do not want to compete at all AND i have yet to have an issue weaning off any hands on- its not forever. I am not trying to be argumentative, i am just explaining my experience/ position. Here are a couple of videos of dogs who have done a bit more agility with us as well as alot of other training. (have permission to post) They still have a long way to go but i think they are doing well. I am sure it will get picked to pieces but oh well. Apart from reward delivery and a bit of luring, the dog isn't touched and having been touched previously doesn't cause an issue. ETA BM its okay- we're not beyond criticisim from others and i have explained my position. Others have different opinions. I am pleased you and Bundy worked so well together. Edited February 15, 2011 by Cosmolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Thanks for posting that link Kavik- that looks great. I will see how my dogs go doing that and let you know. Did you just shape it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) Yes I shaped it - first with just front paws up on the seesaw and pushing it down to get them used to the idea that it moves and makes noise. With my next dog I intend to do so much more foundation work with all my obstacle work ETA: I am currently retraining my contacts as they are not as fast, accurate or independent as I would like. I have spent the summer break using only a short contact trainer plank and getting him to do his pouncing 2o2o contact from that with and now without his target. Now that training has gone back I am moving that to the end of the dogwalk only- not trying to do the whole thing, just from the end to the pounce. May seem quite pedantic but it will pay off in the long run when he is quicker and more confident Plus I am quite pregnant and can't do much running at the moment anyway Edited February 15, 2011 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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