Podengo Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 Basically how useful it is? Some training DVD's are pretty useless and not worth buying, so this one is good for teaching what it advertises? Like Sheena said, it's probably one of the best training DVDs that I have. I have loaned mine to a few friends with distance training problems and they have all LOVED it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 Awesome, thanks for the vote for Dial Up the Distance! Sounds like one I need to watch :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 I don't even bother to find out SCT. It's not like it's going to make a difference in the end! I agree! When standard course times first came in (god it is scary to think I have done agility long enough to say that!) I had a very wise instructor who said "why bother worrying about it, it shouldn't change what you are doing as you should always be handling to the best of your ability" He hated that people would hear a "generous" time so go oh good I can take my time and do it slow and safely and was always of the opinion that you should be running the course the best way possible for you and your dog so did not even want to know the time. To this day it is something I have believed. I have come out of courses with no idea at to if it was a "quick run" or not compared to the time o others as I have gone out there, walked the course to find the best path for my dog and then run that course. I have known if it felt quick and smooth for us but not how it rated against the course. I don't go out of my way to hear the SCT but when you go for briefing they always tell you, doesn't make me change how I run the course though. Don't get me wrong I don't think Masters should be easy, no way, it should be harder. There were a few reasons why we didn't make time, that is 100% us, when she is feeling better (which explains the complete lack of enthusiasm, I just thought it was heat ) and I work more on my handling then I have no doubt she will always make time very easily. I just think that alot of course times and courses are geared towards fast 500 dogs and tend to forget that other heights compete as well. When rate of travel is 4m/s it's definately not the 99.9% of 200's in mind! LOL A lot of the trials I go to, the judges set a different time for different heights & I have even seen one judge change the course for smaller dogs. I have seen some very fast little dogs & most of the larger, faster dogs lose ground because they jump so long & can't turn on a sixpence like the little fellows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 A lot of the trials I go to, the judges set a different time for different heights & I have even seen one judge change the course for smaller dogs. I have seen some very fast little dogs & most of the larger, faster dogs lose ground because they jump so long & can't turn on a sixpence like the little fellows. That's pretty cool about them changing a course, never seen that! Sometimes the littlies get 5/10% extra time down here which I think is great for them. Pro's and con's for both and I am not denying there are fast little dogs, but majority aren't that quick and in the end agility is geared towards fast 500 dogs. You only have to look at most courses put out every week to see that, I know when I run my 500 boy his striding is better than my 400 girl who has to adjust constantly because jumps in particular are spaced out for bigger dogs. Same would go for a larger 600 who would have to collect themselves more and struggle with tighter turns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) For sure, TO, my big lad has to really collect on tight turns but I have concentrated so hard on well timed decel cues that this is rarely an issue. He is deceptive, actually, and runs faster than he looks with his big strides. Not as quick as others but super reliable. Fast 500 dogs need a lot more training to handle at a furious pace. How often do you see handlers of small dogs run with their dogs without much of a handling system? Some of the dogs are capable of being quicker. Not everyone I know but it is reasonably common. I love now that I can send Zig out or leave him in the weaves whilst I run somewhere else - no babysitting is my challenge this year :laugh: My 400 dog gets some decent speed up but is taking off early - some training and I think she'll then be competitive again. All that said, I did love the Agility and Dalmatian Nationals courses that were clearly designed for bigger striding dogs. It's like retrieving in a way - I really have the "wrong" breed but it makes it all the more sweeter when you have a win :D Edited April 12, 2013 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 For sure, TO, my big lad has to really collect on tight turns but I have concentrated so hard on well timed decel cues that this is rarely an issue. He is deceptive, actually, and runs faster than he looks with his big strides. Not as quick as others but super reliable. Fast 500 dogs need a lot more training to handle at a furious pace. How often do you see handlers of small dogs run with their dogs without much of a handling system? Some of the dogs are capable of being quicker. This!! Darcy is nowhere near as light and agile as some of her 500 counterparts but is still capable of doing well because she runs a tight line. That's pretty cool about them changing a course, never seen that! Sometimes the littlies get 5/10% extra time down here which I think is great for them. Other states run separate height trials. NSW in particular, SA has tried it but didn't do it again that I know of. Means they spend more time adjusting courses and less timing running, I've seen some of the NSWr deliberately do our close to the border trials in order to run even 2 of each Masters class per day. Pro's and con's for both and I am not denying there are fast little dogs, but majority aren't that quick and in the end agility is geared towards fast 500 dogs. You only have to look at most courses put out every week to see that, I know when I run my 500 boy his striding is better than my 400 girl who has to adjust constantly because jumps in particular are spaced out for bigger dogs. Same would go for a larger 600 who would have to collect themselves more and struggle with tighter turns. At Moorabbin there was 3 totally different JDM courses. JDM 1 had maximum spacing on nearly all of it, pretty typical for that judge who also likes to lay "traps" for fast 500 dogs. JDM 2 was tight and was nearly minimum distance between obstacles 1 and 12, but still pretty snug right to the end. JDM 3 was hugely big and open for most parts but had some tight corners here and there. I don't know how you can say that they geared to 500 dog striding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 When we were in the states last year the little dogs were running similar times to the really fast 500 BC's. The courses weren't changing either. I think it comes back to how competitive the handlers in the class are - success breeds success. In general the top dogs over there are WAY quicker than our fastest dogs in Australia, the really understand how to drive. Our dogs in general have a better understanding of Decel IMO. On the whole - way more exciting to run a seriously fast dog than it is to just get your dogs around a course. (And I include my 'quick' dogs in the just getting around the course set.) The trip gave me LOTS to think about when it comes time to do foundations with my next puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 One of the biggest observations that the Kiwis made last year was that people with slower, small dogs were encouraging their dogs to be slow. These were the dogs that were carried to the startline and plonked on the ground (no attempts made to get them excited about running), handlers were plodding around a course not trying to engage their dogs in the "game of chase" which resulted in dogs that just plodded along beside them giving the appearance that they didn't even necessarily want to be there, then at the end of the run the handler would stop, call the dog to them and wait for the dog to stop, then give them a pat and a little piece of food. Then the dog would be cuddled all the way back to their crate (or to somewhere where the handler could sit with the dog on their lap). The biggest advice they had for someone with a small dog is to treat it like a working dog, or at the very least an agility dog. No more molly-coddling, no more stationary rewarding, and to start getting the dog excited about the sport of agility- make it fun for them! Make running the course the highlight of their day, instead of the cuddling with mum/dad before and after the run. The biggest advice they had for Australian handlers in general, particularly those with fast, driven dogs was to put it more effort and stop being so lazy. They were blown away by how LITTLE some of our top competitors actually do out there. As far as they were concerned, these dogs were giving 110% out there and handlers were not coming anywhere close to matching that. If you are perfectly able-bodied why stand in the middle and point and direct if not to show off your wonderful distance skills to those watching? Why stand and do a stationary rear cross when you could get there for a front cross? Why make the dog do all of the work and put in all the effort if it is supposed to be a team sport? It is something I know I am incredibly guilty of, I rely on having a fast dog that will do it regardless and don't necessarily match their effort out there on course. Definitely gave us some food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 I can't really chip in to much as I have been out of action but I found that one benefit from coming from a more moderately paced BC who I really did have to run hard to get time. The limited training/trialling my faster baby girl got I was still in the mindset of needing to run hard because I needed to with my older girl. She never got to the point where she was anything other than a green baby dog in the ring so I am not sure how fast she would have ended up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Really interesting points guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 One of the biggest observations that the Kiwis made last year was that people with slower, small dogs were encouraging their dogs to be slow. These were the dogs that were carried to the startline and plonked on the ground (no attempts made to get them excited about running), handlers were plodding around a course not trying to engage their dogs in the "game of chase" which resulted in dogs that just plodded along beside them giving the appearance that they didn't even necessarily want to be there, then at the end of the run the handler would stop, call the dog to them and wait for the dog to stop, then give them a pat and a little piece of food. Then the dog would be cuddled all the way back to their crate (or to somewhere where the handler could sit with the dog on their lap). The biggest advice they had for someone with a small dog is to treat it like a working dog, or at the very least an agility dog. No more molly-coddling, no more stationary rewarding, and to start getting the dog excited about the sport of agility- make it fun for them! Make running the course the highlight of their day, instead of the cuddling with mum/dad before and after the run. The biggest advice they had for Australian handlers in general, particularly those with fast, driven dogs was to put it more effort and stop being so lazy. They were blown away by how LITTLE some of our top competitors actually do out there. As far as they were concerned, these dogs were giving 110% out there and handlers were not coming anywhere close to matching that. If you are perfectly able-bodied why stand in the middle and point and direct if not to show off your wonderful distance skills to those watching? Why stand and do a stationary rear cross when you could get there for a front cross? Why make the dog do all of the work and put in all the effort if it is supposed to be a team sport? It is something I know I am incredibly guilty of, I rely on having a fast dog that will do it regardless and don't necessarily match their effort out there on course. Definitely gave us some food for thought. Yes, yes and yes. It simply blew me away how lazy I was on course when I started running some of their quicker dogs. They aren't any more able than our dogs, they are just trained to drive HARD. I don't think it is only our small dogs we molly coddle. Most of the working dogs in agility circles are treated the same way in Aus. They don't treat their dogs badly, they just have criteria and stick to it. The best analogy I can think of is that I want my dogs running as hard on course as they do when they are chasing something that (invariably) they shouldn't be. It's really hard to describe unless you've 'felt' it though. Hopefully with more Aussies going to WAO, FCI worlds and IFCS events we start to see more and more dogs running at that level over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) Other states run separate height trials. NSW in particular, SA has tried it but didn't do it again that I know of. Means they spend more time adjusting courses and less timing running, I've seen some of the NSWr deliberately do our close to the border trials in order to run even 2 of each Masters class per day. I never knew that, that's cool, though I can see why it wouldn't happen down here. At Moorabbin there was 3 totally different JDM courses. JDM 1 had maximum spacing on nearly all of it, pretty typical for that judge who also likes to lay "traps" for fast 500 dogs. JDM 2 was tight and was nearly minimum distance between obstacles 1 and 12, but still pretty snug right to the end. JDM 3 was hugely big and open for most parts but had some tight corners here and there. I don't know how you can say that they geared to 500 dog striding I wasn't necessarily talking about Moorabbin or just masters either, I thought those courses it was a good mix up of different skills required and enjoyed each course, it definately showed what we need to work on and what we can do well :D From what I've noticed in the past watching masters, the 500's could do most parts naturally, whereas the other heights had to work that little extra. Thought I guess when majority of dogs competing are 500's then it's only natural for courses to play towards them a bit, the rest of us just have to suck it up and train better to beat them :) One of the biggest observations that the Kiwis made last year was that people with slower, small dogs were encouraging their dogs to be slow. These were the dogs that were carried to the startline and plonked on the ground (no attempts made to get them excited about running), handlers were plodding around a course not trying to engage their dogs in the "game of chase" which resulted in dogs that just plodded along beside them giving the appearance that they didn't even necessarily want to be there, then at the end of the run the handler would stop, call the dog to them and wait for the dog to stop, then give them a pat and a little piece of food. Then the dog would be cuddled all the way back to their crate (or to somewhere where the handler could sit with the dog on their lap). The biggest advice they had for someone with a small dog is to treat it like a working dog, or at the very least an agility dog. No more molly-coddling, no more stationary rewarding, and to start getting the dog excited about the sport of agility- make it fun for them! Make running the course the highlight of their day, instead of the cuddling with mum/dad before and after the run. The biggest advice they had for Australian handlers in general, particularly those with fast, driven dogs was to put it more effort and stop being so lazy. They were blown away by how LITTLE some of our top competitors actually do out there. As far as they were concerned, these dogs were giving 110% out there and handlers were not coming anywhere close to matching that. If you are perfectly able-bodied why stand in the middle and point and direct if not to show off your wonderful distance skills to those watching? Why stand and do a stationary rear cross when you could get there for a front cross? Why make the dog do all of the work and put in all the effort if it is supposed to be a team sport? It is something I know I am incredibly guilty of, I rely on having a fast dog that will do it regardless and don't necessarily match their effort out there on course. Definitely gave us some food for thought. What an interesting post, never really thought of it that way before. Edited April 13, 2013 by tollersowned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 If I can get my Springer running as hard in agility as she does in the field retrieving game I'll know I'm there. And for Zig it's how fast he can take off after a kangaroo :laugh: Thank Dog for good recalls eh! TO - I honestly suspect that many 500 handlers have to train harder and have better timing so their dogs don't smash through everything, take off course tunnels and bail on every contact. It just makes them look more suited :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Watching the little dogs at the nationals was very educational for me and definitely made me rethink what I would do with my next dog - I do a lot of stationary rewarding which is half my problem really - something I really need to work on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 If I can get my Springer running as hard in agility as she does in the field retrieving game I'll know I'm there. And for Zig it's how fast he can take off after a kangaroo :laugh: Thank Dog for good recalls eh! TO - I honestly suspect that many 500 handlers have to train harder and have better timing so their dogs don't smash through everything, take off course tunnels and bail on every contact. It just makes them look more suited :D I know right! If I could get her running as fast as she does in lure coursing, watch out! :p Though I think people would have to cover their ears while she runs as she does that high pitched Toller scream when she gets excited Ohh most definately, I hope no one thinks I think that just because you have a 500 that you are a shoe in and have it easy, bigger faster dogs will always land closer to and then take off course obstacles alot easier than the smaller dogs and need to work harder on sharper turns. Both require different types of training. I know my girl can turn on a dime and take sharper corners but can't run as fast as a fast BC, a bigger BC can out run her but couldn't turn as quick as her......it's about finding your dogs advantages I guess and training to improve them. ------ I feel my point has been missed though, I guess to sum up what I was trying too say is agility caters towards the majority.....the majority is 500's :) Maybe I should have said something before my first crack at masters after she had won a class or something, as it seems to be misconstrued as sour grapes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) Watching the little dogs at the nationals was very educational for me and definitely made me rethink what I would do with my next dog - I do a lot of stationary rewarding which is half my problem really - something I really need to work on! Me too, Amy. I can get Pippa razzed up with a tug before a run and away from home, and she tugs like a demon (shaking and growling at it to boot), but as a reward away from home she is half hearted about it and once food has been presented, the tug is no longer highly desirable. Something I need to work on, getting her to accept what I offer as a reward, not what she chooses. So while I've been naughty and catering to her and rewarding with food when I see her enthusiasm for tug has dropped, or not shoving it into her gob stationery (which I have to stop doing), it is being delivered by me tossing it (and then a game of the two food game to razz her up). Do your guys play the two food game? I would like to progress to where the tug is most awesome as a reward away from home :D Food won't be phased out as I use it for obedience training, much quicker and easier to mark precision behaviours by popping a piece of food in her gob! She's such a little piggy, been living with Labs for too long :p Maybe I should have said something before my first crack at masters after she had won a class or something, as it seems to be misconstrued as sour grapes Don't worry TO, I am sure nobody is interpreting it as sour grapes :) We are all just having an opinion. I believe I was the one who made the initial comment about masters SCT being tight and all that so I probably sounded like sour grapes too, but this debate has been great to read as I can see it from all angles and everyone's points have been very valid I guess I just don't care enough for agility with my 500 height Labs, they just aren't cut out for more than a romp around when they feel like it and I starting to feel like I just don't care anymore. However, that being said, training little Pippa who is a 300 dog, my care factor is very much there. She has potential and I want to bring it out in her. Her handicap is having me as her trainer/handler, I am very novice at being able to handle correctly in agility! But we'll do the best we can :) There is no standing still with her, I have never run so hard in my life!! I need to teach her distance and directionals because when I can't physically keep up, she stops and asks what to do next and I nearly break my neck trying not to break hers!! I'm interested to see how she copes with daytime and heat, as we have only ever trained at night. She's a baby dog after all and we have much to learn :) Edited April 13, 2013 by RubyStar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Elsie's first ever agility run, and the second time she has ever run a full course LOL. She got very excited about all the running and ran around a few hurdles, and tried to bite me a few times, but otherwise I am happy... She was focused on me, ran quickly and had a LOT of fun! :D Oh and today is her 18th month birthday :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXDgMjb2wBk&feature=youtu.be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 I grew up with BC's and (never say never, but) won't ever have another breed, but I LOVE watching non-traditional breeds out there doing amazing stuff. These guys are really good examples of what can be achieved. Lynda with a Gun Dog running hard. Awesome example of a little dog driven for the game. Amin had only known Devo about 4 days and the little man was running his heart out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Elsie's first ever agility run, and the second time she has ever run a full course LOL. She got very excited about all the running and ran around a few hurdles, and tried to bite me a few times, but otherwise I am happy... She was focused on me, ran quickly and had a LOT of fun! :D Oh and today is her 18th month birthday :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXDgMjb2wBk&feature=youtu.be She's awesome. Love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Thanks for posting discodobe! She's adorable - she has to jump so high compared to our dogs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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