Agility Training Talk Thread

[The Spotted Devil]

It's so easy to get stuck on accuracy in trials. Yesterday I made myself accountable - told people ringside to slap me stupid if I babysat Miss Em. Yes, she had a few faults but all anyone commented on was how fast she covered the ground. Win :D

[J...]

I know agility is all about getting the fastest clear round, but as long as it doesn't take a ridiculous amount of time, I sometimes think these course times are too harsh and stands in the way of slower dogs being able to progress their way. Sure they won't win or gain Ag Ch status, but if they are reliable and can run clear, I don't think a course time should stand in their way!!

These days they do have the ability to gain an Ag Ch, as a pass (not placed) still gives you 10 points of the required 500 each in agility and jumping. Yes they have to be consistent but it's still achievable, especially in the height categories where there is less dogs and more chance of picking up placings.

I think there has to be a reasonable limit on Master's courses. IMHO Masters should be a challenge and dogs should be running at a good pace and handled to a reasonable standard to qually.

I've seen many a handler disappointed by missing SCT and it's hard when there's a split second in it but there is always room for improvement in training and handling, especially when you are already so close to SCT. Wide turns, late cues, poorly understood crosses etc might mean being a smidge over SCT with slower dogs but with dogs capable of running JDM courses in 5.5 m/s+ it equals off-courses, DQs or dropped bars.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Jess.

[RubyStar]

Thanks for everyone's input on the masters SCT debate! All very good points which I do also agree with :)

[kelpiechick]

These days they do have the ability to gain an Ag Ch, as a pass (not placed) still gives you 10 points of the required 500 each in agility and jumping. Yes they have to be consistent but it's still achievable, especially in the height categories where there is less dogs and more chance of picking up placings.

I think there has to be a reasonable limit on Master's courses. IMHO Masters should be a challenge and dogs should be running at a good pace and handled to a reasonable standard to qually.

I've seen many a handler disappointed by missing SCT and it's hard when there's a split second in it but there is always room for improvement in training and handling, especially when you are already so close to SCT. Wide turns, late cues, poorly understood crosses etc might mean being a smidge over SCT with slower dogs but with dogs capable of running JDM courses in 5.5 m/s+ it equalss off-courses, DQs or dropped bars.

Totally agree with this. Having run both ends of the spectrum (average paced and manic - LOL) I have definitely been on both sides of the argument here and can relate. I don't believe a Masters title is a 'right' for all dogs and there should always be a reasonably fast rate applied to it - but occasionally I have seen dogs get around clear while still moving at a not too slow pace and not make time which does concern me. One thing I would add is that I believe that sometimes judges apply the rate solely on course distance without taking into consideration course design - (well here anyway, maybe they are a bit more enlightened interstate. )

You can have a fairly long course distance wise, but one that was designed to be flowing and run pretty much in accelaration so dogs are naturally running it with a higher rate of speed. Then you have a course that is not as long and has a huge amount of lead leg changes, tight turns, threadles, push to back of jump, etc, etc, where the dogs are going to move into deceleration for quite a lot of course, so naturally won't be

putting down the yps that they are on the other type of course. And yet some judges don't take this into consideration and apply the rate solely on the distance.

In regard to moving through the classes, while I am not necessarily a fan of the win out of class system, I do think it creates a higher standard of performance and training in general than our pass accumulation system does, which is food for thought. Many people that I see seem content to run their less than motivated dogs with pretty sloppy handling and still manage to get up through the ranks so are not motivated to improve their level in any way as all they are focussing on is the 'almighty Q'. I know when I had a few runs in Masters Jumping with my more average paced dog and just missed out on time, it made me really look at my handling and training and really work on how I could improve my times, which helped both my training and handling in turn.

[Agility Dogs]

What are the rates of travel for Masters? I'm only used to ADAA.

ETA - I don't generally look at ROT even though we do compete at ANKC. I only know ADAA now that I'm starting to do my judges training.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Agility Dogs

[The Spotted Devil]

No idea AD. I just run :laugh:

[Agility Dogs]

ME TOO!!!

[sheena]

What are the rates of travel for Masters? I'm only used to ADAA.

ETA - I don't generally look at ROT even though we do compete at ANKC. I only know ADAA now that I'm starting to do my judges training.

I think the ROT for Masters Agility is 3 mps & Masters Jumping is 3.5 mps...but I may be wrong.

[Agility Dogs]

That's the same as ADAA's Open standard. Advanced is 3.5m for agility and 4.0m for jumping. A lot of dogs don't make time on those courses, but I think 3.0m and 3.5m is pretty fair - if you aren't making those times a masters title is devalued a little IMO.

[Tassie]

I think ANKC gives a range of ROT, so that there is a bit of fiddle room to take account of e.g. poor or slippery conditions.

But I must say, my mental response to any briefing on length, ROT and SCT is "Too far, too fast, and not enough time ... and where's my senior's discount ."

But really, I'm like others - just run and handle it as fast as I can, and let the chips fall as they may :laugh: .

[RubyStar]

But really, I'm like others - just run and handle it as fast as I can, and let the chips fall as they may :laugh: .

Yep, I know I brought up the masters SCT thing, but I do agree with that :) I don't even bother to find out SCT. It's not like it's going to make a difference in the end! Just doing the best I can and if we get a pass, bonus :) The jackpot though is if my dogs are running with enthusiasm and paying attention, and of course having fun!

Edited April 10, 2013 by RubyStar

[sheena]

I think ANKC gives a range of ROT, so that there is a bit of fiddle room to take account of e.g. poor or slippery conditions.

But I must say, my mental response to any briefing on length, ROT and SCT is "Too far, too fast, and not enough time ... and where's my senior's discount ."

But really, I'm like others - just run and handle it as fast as I can, and let the chips fall as they may :laugh: .

My girl is only a moderate speed dog, definately not fast, & frigs around in the weave poles, but if she gets a clear round in Masters agility or agility open, then she manages to qualify with heaps of time to spare. So I think the time is fairly generous in agility. In Masters jumping we often will get a clear round but miss out by a fraction of a second so that ROT is probably about right too, to cater for most dogs. IMO

[piper]

I don't even bother to find out SCT. It's not like it's going to make a difference in the end!

I agree!

When standard course times first came in (god it is scary to think I have done agility long enough to say that!) I had a very wise instructor who said "why bother worrying about it, it shouldn't change what you are doing as you should always be handling to the best of your ability" He hated that people would hear a "generous" time so go oh good I can take my time and do it slow and safely and was always of the opinion that you should be running the course the best way possible for you and your dog so did not even want to know the time. To this day it is something I have believed. I have come out of courses with no idea at to if it was a "quick run" or not compared to the time o others as I have gone out there, walked the course to find the best path for my dog and then run that course. I have known if it felt quick and smooth for us but not how it rated against the course.

[aussielover]

I think the win to progress system probably encourages better training and better dogs but at the same time I think it cuts down the huge variation of breeds we see here in Australia.

It's pretty much excluding a lot of breeds to compete at the highest level. I think it would discourage the "average" pet owner from trialling.

I don't enter trials with my dog to win. We have fun and she gets a day out, often with friends and its fun to strive towards getting a title. I like how any handler/dog team can get a title in Australia. I got my dog to be a companion foremost but I like that she can also participate and have some success in agility.

I think a class above masters with a win out system to be eligible to enter would be interesting. Those courses could be of a more international design and would cater for the outstanding and highly competitive teams.

[Podengo]

I think the win to progress system probably encourages better training and better dogs but at the same time I think it cuts down the huge variation of breeds we see here in Australia.

It's pretty much excluding a lot of breeds to compete at the highest level. I think it would discourage the "average" pet owner from trialling.

I don't enter trials with my dog to win. We have fun and she gets a day out, often with friends and its fun to strive towards getting a title. I like how any handler/dog team can get a title in Australia. I got my dog to be a companion foremost but I like that she can also participate and have some success in agility.

I think a class above masters with a win out system to be eligible to enter would be interesting. Those courses could be of a more international design and would cater for the outstanding and highly competitive teams.

I'm not sure I agree, despite having a win out system, we still do have some interesting breeds competing at lower levels in agility (taking into account NZ has a much smaller population, and far less interesting breeds overall!). I teach introductory agility classes, so get to see a large number of new handlers every year, and none of them have a clue or care what's going on at the top tier of agility - they just want to have fun with their dogs regardless of breed.

I think that any reasonably fit dog that will run (not trot!) around a course, with a good handler who has trained them well should be able to win into the highest levels, whether or not they can amass enough wins to gain a championship title is another thing. Most of the 'different' breeds I see coming into agility with new handlers tend to be dogs that have ended their show careers, and are starting agility at 4 or 5 years old... In that situation I don't think it's the breed that is holding that team back from qualifying for the top classes.

We do have titles and certificates available for clear runs gained at lower levels, so there is something to work towards :)

[RubyStar]

Does anyone own the DVD set "Dial up the Distance"? Wondering what it is like?

I want to teach Pippa not only distance, but directionals. This one seemed to cover both?

Edited April 12, 2013 by RubyStar

[Podengo]

Does anyone own the DVD set "Dial up the Distance"? Wondering what it is like?

I want to teach Pippa not only distance, but directionals. This one seemed to cover both?

Yup - I really, really like it! What you wanna know about it? :)

[RubyStar]

Basically how useful it is? Some training DVD's are pretty useless and not worth buying, so this one is good for teaching what it advertises?

[sheena]

Does anyone own the DVD set "Dial up the Distance"? Wondering what it is like?

I want to teach Pippa not only distance, but directionals. This one seemed to cover both?

I have shelves full of DVD's but this is the BEST IMO. I have even used it to teach (try) & teach distance handling to my class. Not sure if it still is, but is was on free shipping from CleanRun

[Sayreovi]

I don't even bother to find out SCT. It's not like it's going to make a difference in the end!

I agree!

When standard course times first came in (god it is scary to think I have done agility long enough to say that!) I had a very wise instructor who said "why bother worrying about it, it shouldn't change what you are doing as you should always be handling to the best of your ability" He hated that people would hear a "generous" time so go oh good I can take my time and do it slow and safely and was always of the opinion that you should be running the course the best way possible for you and your dog so did not even want to know the time. To this day it is something I have believed. I have come out of courses with no idea at to if it was a "quick run" or not compared to the time o others as I have gone out there, walked the course to find the best path for my dog and then run that course. I have known if it felt quick and smooth for us but not how it rated against the course.

I don't go out of my way to hear the SCT but when you go for briefing they always tell you, doesn't make me change how I run the course though.

Don't get me wrong I don't think Masters should be easy, no way, it should be harder. There were a few reasons why we didn't make time, that is 100% us, when she is feeling better (which explains the complete lack of enthusiasm, I just thought it was heat ) and I work more on my handling then I have no doubt she will always make time very easily.

I just think that alot of course times and courses are geared towards fast 500 dogs and tend to forget that other heights compete as well. When rate of travel is 4m/s it's definately not the 99.9% of 200's in mind! LOL