Agility Training Talk Thread

[megan_]

If you're running at jumps, my understanding of Derrett would be:

i) Dog runs parallel to you. You run flat out.

ii) No need for arms. The dog knows to take any obstacle in its direct path (and no flicking and veering off to other obstacles).

With no arms you can run faster (ie you pump your arms naturally). If you're anything like me your arms can flail a little and maybe they feel that can distract the dog (ie what is she trying to tell me?). Are you moving your arm up and down?

I used to run with my arm constantly up to direct my dog (I was originally taught this method) but it slowed me down and was completely unnecessary. I have noticed a few people trying to run with no arms at all in training (id hands clasped behind their back) using shoulders to direct the dogs. With only a few exceptions, the dogs ran perfectly - ie the arms didn't add any value.

All of that said, I'm norty and don't always listen to instructors when I believe they are giving directions that won't work for me and my dog. For example, there is one person who believes that a dog shouldn't be rewarded at all and should be ignored unless it get an exercise 100% - even when it is only learning the exercise. This would shut my boy down and goes against the advice of some of the top trainers in the world (Derrett gives his dogs "screw up cookies" all the time). Rather than try to argue with them and justify my methods, I smile politely and say "I'm using a different method" and get on with it.

[Sayreovi]

there is one person who believes that a dog shouldn't be rewarded at all and should be ignored unless it get an exercise 100% - even when it is only learning the exercise.

This is horrible

What a way to break a dog

[piper]

I've got a question for the agility people! I'm learning very slowly how to run a manic, hyperspeed dog in agility at present and have been reading alot about handling and also spending hours watching videos. But I'm stumped on the use of arms! I understand the need for giving direction and my dog has no trouble with that but my agility club keeps telling me I need to keep my hand raised up in the air or my dog will jump lower or drop bars? Now my dog has never been taught anything in relation to my arm being up in air so I'm confused about how having my arm up will affect her jump. I understand if I start with my arm up in the air and then drop it while she's jumping that affects her jump as I've changed my body language. Surely I can train her to jump with my arm held level or not even having my arm out and only use the arm for directional cues or crosses etc? What do others think about arms? I know alot of this comes down to the handling system that my club teaches but I want to know the reasons WHY we do certain things!

Based on this theory, Jazz should never make it over a bar. I have been training her with an injured shoulder - I can not hold my arm up at all or out for any period of time. Poor girl has had to learnt to work from very minimal signals on that side of my body, basically just my forearm and she has coped fine and is not a bar knocker (at this stage - yet to test it in a trial but I can only think of 3 times in training she has dropped a bar in 12 months).

I'm looking forward to recovering from the shoulder surgery I had last week and finally getting out there to trial her as she is so training so well at the moment (or was, hopefully still will when we return from my enforced break).

[sheena]

I've got a question for the agility people! I'm learning very slowly how to run a manic, hyperspeed dog in agility at present and have been reading alot about handling and also spending hours watching videos. But I'm stumped on the use of arms! I understand the need for giving direction and my dog has no trouble with that but my agility club keeps telling me I need to keep my hand raised up in the air or my dog will jump lower or drop bars? Now my dog has never been taught anything in relation to my arm being up in air so I'm confused about how having my arm up will affect her jump. I understand if I start with my arm up in the air and then drop it while she's jumping that affects her jump as I've changed my body language. Surely I can train her to jump with my arm held level or not even having my arm out and only use the arm for directional cues or crosses etc? What do others think about arms? I know alot of this comes down to the handling system that my club teaches but I want to know the reasons WHY we do certain things!

Based on this theory, Jazz should never make it over a bar. I have been training her with an injured shoulder - I can not hold my arm up at all or out for any period of time. Poor girl has had to learnt to work from very minimal signals on that side of my body, basically just my forearm and she has coped fine and is not a bar knocker (at this stage - yet to test it in a trial but I can only think of 3 times in training she has dropped a bar in 12 months).

I'm looking forward to recovering from the shoulder surgery I had last week and finally getting out there to trial her as she is so training so well at the moment (or was, hopefully still will when we return from my enforced break).

I've have never heard of that..... I have my arm extended if I want the dog to stay out & bring it in close to my body if I want her to move in to me, but it doesn't matter where I have my arm in relation to her dropping bars. I can have my arm behind my back & she will not knock bars. If you start with your arm up & then drop it, it shouldn't make her knock a bar, it will simply bring her in to you, so she might miss a jump that was further out.....if that makes sense.

[Sayreovi]

I've got a question for the agility people! I'm learning very slowly how to run a manic, hyperspeed dog in agility at present and have been reading alot about handling and also spending hours watching videos. But I'm stumped on the use of arms! I understand the need for giving direction and my dog has no trouble with that but my agility club keeps telling me I need to keep my hand raised up in the air or my dog will jump lower or drop bars? Now my dog has never been taught anything in relation to my arm being up in air so I'm confused about how having my arm up will affect her jump. I understand if I start with my arm up in the air and then drop it while she's jumping that affects her jump as I've changed my body language. Surely I can train her to jump with my arm held level or not even having my arm out and only use the arm for directional cues or crosses etc? What do others think about arms? I know alot of this comes down to the handling system that my club teaches but I want to know the reasons WHY we do certain things!

How do they teach a dog to remain away from you?

I have learnt the same as Sheena, my arm can be in 3 positions and they all mean different things to my dog. If I want my dog in close I drop my arm so it's nearly at my side, if I want to push her out I have my arm straight out and for everything else I pretty much have it about 45 degrees.

[Seita]

I've got a question for the agility people! I'm learning very slowly how to run a manic, hyperspeed dog in agility at present and have been reading alot about handling and also spending hours watching videos. But I'm stumped on the use of arms! I understand the need for giving direction and my dog has no trouble with that but my agility club keeps telling me I need to keep my hand raised up in the air or my dog will jump lower or drop bars? Now my dog has never been taught anything in relation to my arm being up in air so I'm confused about how having my arm up will affect her jump. I understand if I start with my arm up in the air and then drop it while she's jumping that affects her jump as I've changed my body language. Surely I can train her to jump with my arm held level or not even having my arm out and only use the arm for directional cues or crosses etc? What do others think about arms? I know alot of this comes down to the handling system that my club teaches but I want to know the reasons WHY we do certain things!

Based on this theory, Jazz should never make it over a bar. I have been training her with an injured shoulder - I can not hold my arm up at all or out for any period of time. Poor girl has had to learnt to work from very minimal signals on that side of my body, basically just my forearm and she has coped fine and is not a bar knocker (at this stage - yet to test it in a trial but I can only think of 3 times in training she has dropped a bar in 12 months).

I'm looking forward to recovering from the shoulder surgery I had last week and finally getting out there to trial her as she is so training so well at the moment (or was, hopefully still will when we return from my enforced break).

I've have never heard of that..... I have my arm extended if I want the dog to stay out & bring it in close to my body if I want her to move in to me, but it doesn't matter where I have my arm in relation to her dropping bars. I can have my arm behind my back & she will not knock bars. If you start with your arm up & then drop it, it shouldn't make her knock a bar, it will simply bring her in to you, so she might miss a jump that was further out.....if that makes sense.

My girl is very sensitive to body language so if I drop my arm mid jump she drops her rear end and knocks bars. I did some more testing of the arm thingy today and I still haven't worked out why the raised arm is needed.

I don't want to knock my club as I really like the way they train but just want to understand the reasons why I'm being told to do certain things!

[The Spotted Devil]

Seita - that makes sense if you drop your arm mid jump because you are indicating something different. It's nice to have a sensitive dog, trust me! So, you need to support her over the jump but as long as the height of your arm is consistent it shouldn't matter. You will find young "green" dogs need much more support than experienced dogs - I can send my lower drive Dally out to a jump and run like mad to get in position but I have to support my young higher drive Springer much much more. It comes with confidence - you and the dog :D I have to be careful what I SAY with Em - one word and that's a bar down....this is a dog that clears 600 height lol I even have to be careful of "weave" at the moment - in high distraction she finds that all too much. Run at them, support with my arm and she weaves like a pro.

ETA: If you can get someone to video your training sessions it really helps. Often you can see stuff (and cringe lol) that you're doing and understand why the dog is dropping bars or the instructor is yelling at you!

Edited July 4, 2012 by The Spotted Devil

[DeltaCharlie]

My girl is very sensitive to body language so if I drop my arm mid jump she drops her rear end and knocks bars.

Perhaps that is what they are trying to help you with and you have misunderstood what they were getting at? They may have noticed your arm dropping or moving excessively and saw the effect that was having on her jumping style.

When I was training my first dog I was told to keep my arm out as it made a much clearer signal for him, without me focussing on keeping it up I flapped it all over the place and confused the crap out of him :laugh: It wasn't that he needed it to be up, it was that I needed somewhere to have it. I still have a tendency to flap on course, or try to send my dog to the moon when I want them to get out :laugh: but I am so much better than I was back then!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I was orginally trained to run the course, with my dog, arm up pointing at the jump, yelling "over" for every jump.

And then I got the Greg Derrett DVDs.

And then Cathy Slot - who is Queensland based - organsied Susan Garrett and then Greg Derrett to visit Australia in their winter, our summer. Whoo hoo.

You do need a consistent signalling system. The arm means what you train it to mean. And if you want go fast in straight line - you really don't need to be running with your dog with your arm out, yelling "over"...

You do need to practice rewarding your dog for running ahead of you when you're running (or in a running pose) then you only need to use your arms and shoulders to signal changes in direction... and train your dog to ignore changes in direction that don't have arm signals ie if you want to run to get ahead of your dog - you don't always want your dog chasing you - I want mine to take what's in front of her without changing direction until I call and arm-signal ... we're working on that one. we're not there yet. at the moment - she chases me if I change direction.

You also have to train a dog to commit to an obstacle - not like what mine does - ie if I change direction when she's over a jump - she knocks the bar turning in mid air.

And if I screw up - that's when the dog gets screw up cookies - cos dog shuts down if I kick myself for stuffing up.

[Seita]

Thanks for the all the replies it's made a lot of sense and I have a clearer understanding of what I am doing right and wrong. I am still confused about the arm up in the air thing and will double check with the instructor next week as like someone said I may have misunderstood something along the way. I certainly do need to focus on keeping my arm steady or I will see bars drop, I also need to learn when to turn, how to change direction and speed smoothly so bars (and uprights) stay up! I started agility back in the late 90s when you ran the dog at heel on your left only and said over for each jump and weave weave weave for each single pole, right hand handling was just starting to come in when I stopped! I haven't done agility in more than 10 years now and man is there alot for me to get my head around!

[canine fun sports]

You do need a consistent signalling system. The arm means what you train it to mean. And if you want go fast in straight line - you really don't need to be running with your dog with your arm out, yelling "over"...

I would like to add something in here.

Arms and hands are an extremely valuable tools for communicating with your dog. And yes, your arm does mean what you train it to mean. But remember, training goes on both intentionally and unintentionally.

My dog knows that when I extend my arm that something good is likely to happen ahead. This is because, in life, as well as in agility training, I throw balls and treats ahead of me for my dog to get. I use this signal in agility becasue it has already been trained in "life". Similarly, when my hands are close to me, there is a good chance I have a food treat in them for my dog, so when my hands are close to me, they are watching me very closely, and likely to be coming in toward me.

My dogs also know that when I am running flat out then it is fun to run to try to beat me - so when I am running flat out, the position of my hands (in life, and in agility) is less important.

Some people do move there arm in and out to indicate each jump. These dogs have learnt to ignore arm movements, so in my eyes, these handlers have foregone one very valuable communication method.

Others have not realised how sensitive their dog is to hand movement (perhpas because they have not realised that they have unintentionally taught their dogs to watch their hands.) So, if handlers move their hands while the dog is negotiating the jump, the dog will move his focus, which usually means they turn their head. The only way to counterbalance this movement, when the dog is in the air, is to extend the opposite back leg. This is what brings down the bar.

So, if you want to communicate a direction change to a dog by using arms, then do it before he finishes his take-off (when his back legs are still on the ground) or wait until he lands.

[J...]

I certainly do need to focus on keeping my arm steady or I will see bars drop,

Good thinking, but it's also not a bad idea to proof for it as well. Moving your arms in a given way can be a hard habit to break, especially when running courses.

As an example, I had a friend pick me up for dropping my shoulder when committing Darcy to tunnels so I can get to where I need to be, occasionally resulting in her dropping the bar before. I try to remember not to drop it while walking the course, but I'm human and I sometimes forget. So I've also done some deliberate proof work at home by rewarding her for keeping the bar up when I do drop my shoulder.

[canine fun sports]

I certainly do need to focus on keeping my arm steady or I will see bars drop,

Good thinking, but it's also not a bad idea to proof for it as well. Moving your arms in a given way can be a hard habit to break, especially when running courses.

As an example, I had a friend pick me up for dropping my shoulder when committing Darcy to tunnels so I can get to where I need to be, occasionally resulting in her dropping the bar before. I try to remember not to drop it while walking the course, but I'm human and I sometimes forget. So I've also done some deliberate proof work at home by rewarding her for keeping the bar up when I do drop my shoulder.

I would prefer to use a handling system where, by purposely keeping my arm (and verbals) directing the dog, over a jump or toward the tunnel, would allow me to break away very early with my movement to my next obstacle. This way, the dog not only knows that he has to do the tunnel, but he already knows which direction he has to turn when he comes out of the tunnel. (See Linda Mecklenberg books and DVD's)

I would laso like to think that if I turn away from the tunnel or jump early, my dog would not learn to blow off my body language - he will turn with me. Imagine if I am trying to turn my dog at the last moment (either because of a previous mistake, or because I am tryng to line up the next obstacle in a certain way) and my dog thought - this is one of those time she does not mean it.

I do not want my dog to ever ignore any of my communications. I do not want to lost the "power" to communicate with my dog by teaching him there are times he can ignore a shoulder pull, or times they can igmore my hand and arm movements. It is the combination of all those signals that tells the dog exactly where I want them to go. If I do not get the balance of my signals rightwhen I communicate with my dog, then that is my problem. Training and teamwork is devloping those communication skills.

Cheers,

Edited July 5, 2012 by canine fun sports

[J...]

I certainly do need to focus on keeping my arm steady or I will see bars drop,

Good thinking, but it's also not a bad idea to proof for it as well. Moving your arms in a given way can be a hard habit to break, especially when running courses.

As an example, I had a friend pick me up for dropping my shoulder when committing Darcy to tunnels so I can get to where I need to be, occasionally resulting in her dropping the bar before. I try to remember not to drop it while walking the course, but I'm human and I sometimes forget. So I've also done some deliberate proof work at home by rewarding her for keeping the bar up when I do drop my shoulder.

I would prefer to use a handling system where, by purposely keeping my arm (and verbals) directing the dog, over a jump or toward the tunnel, would allow me to break away very early with my movement to my next obstacle. This way, the dog not only knows that he has to do the tunnel, but he already knows which direction he has to turn when he comes out of the tunnel. (See Linda Mecklenberg books and DVD's)

I would laso like to think that if I turn away from the tunnel or jump early, my dog would not learn to blow off my body language - he will turn with me. Imagine if I am trying to turn my dog at the last moment (either because of a previous mistake, or because I am tryng to line up the next obstacle in a certain way) and my dog thought - this is one of those time she does not mean it.

I do not want my dog to ever ignore any of my communications. I do not want to lost the "power" to communicate with my dog by teaching him there are times he can ignore a shoulder pull, or times they can igmore my hand and arm movements. It is the combination of all those signals that tells the dog exactly where I want them to go. If I do not get the balance of my signals rightwhen I communicate with my dog, then that is my problem. Training and teamwork is devloping those communication skills.

Cheers,

Just because I'm occasionally dropping my shoulder doesn't mean I'm not continuing to support the obstacle, regardless of where I am headed. Dropping my shoulder is different to a shoulder pull, and I would never teach a dog to ignore my directional arm movements.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Jess.

[canine fun sports]

Just because I'm occasionally dropping my shoulder doesn't mean I'm not continuing to support the obstacle, regardless of where I am headed. Dropping my shoulder is different to a shoulder pull, and I would never teach a dog to ignore my directional arm movements.

Firstly, Jess, let me apologise if you felt i was criticising your personal handling style / abilities / experience. My intension is to make comment on the general use of arms when handling, and your description of your dropped shoulder is just one example.

My point is that if you are using your arms and hands to positively drive at the obstacle you want the dog to do (and use verbal support) your shoulder will not drop (which resembles the start of a shoulder pull) so you do not give your dog an extra turning cue. This gives you a lot more opportunity to position yourself for the next handling sequence.

Therefore, I would want to teach my dogs that my arms and hands are VERY important in telling them where to go. They can give infomration about direction, distance and speed. I would never want to do anything to decrease their importance.

Cheers,

[aussielover]

Quick question:

We have our first trial tomorrow

Are dogs allowed to wear a collar with a name tag during a run? I have read somewhere that they can't? I usually train with no collar, but with the excitement I am a bit worried that my dog might go a bit silly and run off or do something silly, so I'd like the collar and tag so that she could be caught easily if it happens. I'm sure she'll be ok as she usually doesn't run off in training but you never know...

[Kavik]

No, the collar cannot have any tags on it.

[The Spotted Devil]

Quick question:

We have our first trial tomorrow

Are dogs allowed to wear a collar with a name tag during a run? I have read somewhere that they can't? I usually train with no collar, but with the excitement I am a bit worried that my dog might go a bit silly and run off or do something silly, so I'd like the collar and tag so that she could be caught easily if it happens. I'm sure she'll be ok as she usually doesn't run off in training but you never know...

They can wear a flat collar but I don't think tags are allowed - even if they were I wouldn't leave them on. Do you have a pre-ring routine? If your dog will tug or hand touch or play with you in some way before they go in the ring it's a good indication of their level of focus.

Good luck, relax and have fun

[Kavik]

You can buy those flat collars which have the dog's name and your phone number embroidered on them - might be an idea if you are really worried she might high tail it.

Don't worry even if she does run off - has happened to me many times

[aussielover]

Yes I always tug with her and then ask for some tricks before a run

She's done in-club trials before and been fine (by fine I mean she hasn't run off, but she has done some other pretty funny things like make up her own course, go under the jumps, get stuck in the tunnel etc lol)

Last time I forgot the course about 1/2 way through and the judge had to help me though so perhaps its not her I should be worried about :laugh: