Agility Training Talk Thread

[RiverStar-Aura]

Thanks guys :)

If I manage to keep his attention on me we have a much better time of it for sure, I think part of the problem the other night was for whatever reason he was not interested in tugging or his toys so was looking around a lot more. Maybe I should try covering his crate and only bringing him out for our turn and back away again. I do tend to have times where I have him out while trying to keep his attention by doing tricks etc, but there is some time where he can look around and get distracted.

Yeap I usually call him Huddy or Hud for short. He is getting much better and I am sure he will turn the corner one day! Agility is just SO exciting to him it puts him up right up to his maximum level of arousal where I think he stops thinking quite so much!

Most of the time we had run off issues we had completed the short sequence I had stopped to offer him a treat (as he wasn't interested in the tug) and he would almost come back to me and right before he took the treat/I could grab him, he went looking for more fun! haha

Sunday will be a massive test for us Tony, but super excited about it anyway! :) Will keep working on getting him engaged, have been teaching him a nose/hand touch at obedience and he is really starting to get it now.

Elise I feel your pain! Tonight it was Zeus's first night back to training for the year and as soon as he was off lead, he ran off to explore! We're only fairly new to agility training too, we started two months before the Christmas break last year, in which most of the classes were cancelled due to rain.

Being part beagle, Zeus is not a tug motivated dog, unlike my terrier so I purchased some tug toys from Aussie Agility in VIC called the Ultimate Jackpot Tugs which have a velcro treat pouch attached to them. The idea is that they help motivate a food orientated dog into tugging -- mine arrived today in time for tonight's class, but I chose to use another type I'd ordered instead (it's made with pieces of rabbit fur). This one didn't work so well because Zeus was more interested in the food.

I did find that once Zeus had run off during his first round of obstacles, he seemed to get it out of his system and behaved perfectly off lead from then on. It was like he did his victory lap before completing anything! :laugh: I'm unsure if Zeus behaves for me because he's focussed on me or whether he's just learnt that by doing what I ask gets him food.

He does really seem to enjoy agility though in that it gets him into high drive mode and the hardest thing I find is trying to slow him down. The poor boy gets so excited to be jumping over things, running through tunnels and navigating the beam and A frame that he leaves his brain behind. He's just so go, go, go all the time, which is a good thing in the end since agility is also a timed event, but so not helpful when trying to teach him to think first!

I do have a question regarding what sort of collars and things to use. Because we're still beginners, we lead our dogs on leash over the dog walk or A frame to encourage them to slow on descent and to not jump off the sides. What I'm finding frustrating is that after completing the walk/frame, we are asked to go over jumps and it's too time consuming to take Zeus off lead and continue to the jumps.

I've looked on the Black Dog Gear website and was wondering what people's thoughts on a snub lead or agility/flyball collar are. The snub lead is just a very short lead with a knotted handle so it won't get in the way of jumps and the flyball/agility collar is a flat collar with a handle sewn onto it. I'm thinking by using one of these, I'd be able to steady Zeus on the walk/frame then let him go immediately to head to the jumps rather than futzing around with his lead.

I really can't wait until next week because I think it's something Zeus looks forward to also -- he gets time away from Kirah and for the first time in 2 years, it's "all about him" again not "the Kirah show" with Zeus hovering around!

[Podengo]

Yes so cool to see new agility folk!

Had an awesome night at training last night, started some work with my new borrowed giant schnauzer. It was her first time at agility so we just worked on playing tug and doing some circle work and keeping her focus around all the other dogs. She was a star! Not interested in looking at the other dogs at all, and eager to tug and take treats even within a few metres of other dogs running courses. Then did some agility with Elsie, we got to work on the see-saw which she hasn't seen since October and ran off the end of one in the weekend expecting it was a dogwalk, so needed a little reminder about it! Working on proofing weaves too with her best friend playing tug right next to the weaves, and having jumps set up close to pole 10 or just past the weave to tempt them to leave the weaves. Did some work on serps too which are looking fantastic and so smooth now :)

[The Spotted Devil]

Thanks guys :)

If I manage to keep his attention on me we have a much better time of it for sure, I think part of the problem the other night was for whatever reason he was not interested in tugging or his toys so was looking around a lot more. Maybe I should try covering his crate and only bringing him out for our turn and back away again. I do tend to have times where I have him out while trying to keep his attention by doing tricks etc, but there is some time where he can look around and get distracted.

Yeap I usually call him Huddy or Hud for short. He is getting much better and I am sure he will turn the corner one day! Agility is just SO exciting to him it puts him up right up to his maximum level of arousal where I think he stops thinking quite so much!

Most of the time we had run off issues we had completed the short sequence I had stopped to offer him a treat (as he wasn't interested in the tug) and he would almost come back to me and right before he took the treat/I could grab him, he went looking for more fun! haha

Sunday will be a massive test for us Tony, but super excited about it anyway! :) Will keep working on getting him engaged, have been teaching him a nose/hand touch at obedience and he is really starting to get it now.

Elise I feel your pain! Tonight it was Zeus's first night back to training for the year and as soon as he was off lead, he ran off to explore! We're only fairly new to agility training too, we started two months before the Christmas break last year, in which most of the classes were cancelled due to rain.

Being part beagle, Zeus is not a tug motivated dog, unlike my terrier so I purchased some tug toys from Aussie Agility in VIC called the Ultimate Jackpot Tugs which have a velcro treat pouch attached to them. The idea is that they help motivate a food orientated dog into tugging -- mine arrived today in time for tonight's class, but I chose to use another type I'd ordered instead (it's made with pieces of rabbit fur). This one didn't work so well because Zeus was more interested in the food.

I did find that once Zeus had run off during his first round of obstacles, he seemed to get it out of his system and behaved perfectly off lead from then on. It was like he did his victory lap before completing anything! :laugh: I'm unsure if Zeus behaves for me because he's focussed on me or whether he's just learnt that by doing what I ask gets him food.

He does really seem to enjoy agility though in that it gets him into high drive mode and the hardest thing I find is trying to slow him down. The poor boy gets so excited to be jumping over things, running through tunnels and navigating the beam and A frame that he leaves his brain behind. He's just so go, go, go all the time, which is a good thing in the end since agility is also a timed event, but so not helpful when trying to teach him to think first!

I do have a question regarding what sort of collars and things to use. Because we're still beginners, we lead our dogs on leash over the dog walk or A frame to encourage them to slow on descent and to not jump off the sides. What I'm finding frustrating is that after completing the walk/frame, we are asked to go over jumps and it's too time consuming to take Zeus off lead and continue to the jumps.

I've looked on the Black Dog Gear website and was wondering what people's thoughts on a snub lead or agility/flyball collar are. The snub lead is just a very short lead with a knotted handle so it won't get in the way of jumps and the flyball/agility collar is a flat collar with a handle sewn onto it. I'm thinking by using one of these, I'd be able to steady Zeus on the walk/frame then let him go immediately to head to the jumps rather than futzing around with his lead.

I really can't wait until next week because I think it's something Zeus looks forward to also -- he gets time away from Kirah and for the first time in 2 years, it's "all about him" again not "the Kirah show" with Zeus hovering around!

RSA - I can't answer your question fully because I never train on leash but I suspect even tabs could get caught up in jumps. I don't think a harness is safe either. Are you teaching your dog an end contact behaviour? The way I prefer to train is NOT to slow your dog down over the contacts but to teach them to race as fast as possible to the end of the contact and wait for you there. It's a surprisingly complex behaviour to teach - you need good instruction - and the dog really needs to understand his job. I am retraining contacts at the moment and am loving the new found confidence and understanding my dogs are developing. It means much more fun for all of us and that is my ultimate aim! Sounds like you are doing a great job of maintaining focus - keep working on tug away from agility so as not to mix the two together until he is a confident tugger. It's a great skill to teach a dog and a wonderful challenge to train a non-tugging dog (my Dally was one!) I use a lot of food also - cheese cubes are sensational (broken in half or quarters) as you can throw them - easily seen on the grass and it gets the reward off your body. Or throw the food filled tug and race your dog to it, play like crazy woman and make him work to get the food out. Have fun!

[Kavik]

TSD - what method are you using for retraining your contacts? Still deciding how I want to train Nitro, and looking at my options.

[The Spotted Devil]

TSD - what method are you using for retraining your contacts? Still deciding how I want to train Nitro, and looking at my options.

I'm following Amanda Shyne's book "Phenomenal Stopped Contacts". Downloaded as an e-book from Clean Run. Nearly 60 steps (!!!), some repeated of course, but I'm really enjoying splitting the behaviours and it's helping to identify weaknesses. I've had Em out of agility for a while now (she's running JDM) as contacts were causing sniffing and Zig is out until I finish retraining - plenty of Masters Jumping courses for them out there in the meantime. Zig didn't often miss his contacts but I hated that he started creeping and I felt I had to babysit.

Edited February 17, 2014 by The Spotted Devil

[Kavik]

TSD - what method are you using for retraining your contacts? Still deciding how I want to train Nitro, and looking at my options.

I'm following Amanda Shyne's book "Phenomenal Stopped Contacts". Downloaded as an e-book from Clean Run. Nearly 60 steps (!!!), some repeated of course, but I'm really enjoying splitting the behaviours and it's helping to identify weaknesses. I've had Em out of agility for a while now (she's running JDM) as contacts were causing sniffing and Zig is out until I finish retraining - plenty of Masters Jumping courses for them out there in the meantime. Zig didn't often miss his contacts but I hated that he started creeping and I felt I had to babysit.

Thanks! I'll look into that. I did SG's contact course but not sure I want to teach a nose touch and it had so many steps!

[The Spotted Devil]

Zig does 2o/2o with nose touch but Em does drop 2o/2o - it suits her body shape and she offered that. With the book, you can use any type of stopped contact. I would like to teach running contacts but I don't have equipment at home - one day!

[Kavik]

Running contacts looks like so much fun! I'd also love to give it a go one day.

[Podengo]

I started teaching running contacts - it was wicked fun and Elsie did really well! We stopped because I found I was only training contacts once a week, or every second week at club. If I had my own gear I would certainly try it again. Elsie has reliable stopped contacts and I found teaching a RC taught her how to go hard and fast over the gear.

[The Spotted Devil]

Kavik - re the book...it can be tempting not to do every step but I have thus far (except tugging for Em) and I really think that makes all the difference.

DD - the exercises in the book switch between control (flat, board etc) and speed on the board (eg running dog along single board on the ground) and I imagine that is similar to the effects you've had from teaching running.

[Kavik]

Thanks that is helpful!

[RiverStar-Aura]

RSA - I can't answer your question fully because I never train on leash but I suspect even tabs could get caught up in jumps. I don't think a harness is safe either. Are you teaching your dog an end contact behaviour? The way I prefer to train is NOT to slow your dog down over the contacts but to teach them to race as fast as possible to the end of the contact and wait for you there. It's a surprisingly complex behaviour to teach - you need good instruction - and the dog really needs to understand his job. I am retraining contacts at the moment and am loving the new found confidence and understanding my dogs are developing. It means much more fun for all of us and that is my ultimate aim! Sounds like you are doing a great job of maintaining focus - keep working on tug away from agility so as not to mix the two together until he is a confident tugger. It's a great skill to teach a dog and a wonderful challenge to train a non-tugging dog (my Dally was one!) I use a lot of food also - cheese cubes are sensational (broken in half or quarters) as you can throw them - easily seen on the grass and it gets the reward off your body. Or throw the food filled tug and race your dog to it, play like crazy woman and make him work to get the food out. Have fun!

I guess I'm just worried about training Zeus completely off leash because he does have a horrible habit of running off and crossing the main highway at our local off leash park. Zeus is usually quite good at recall thought when my focus is on him 100% so I might give it a try next week. I think he might be less inclined to run off at training because he really seems to enjoy the work we're doing and he hasn't formed a learned habit like he has at the dog park.

Zeus I think will be a hard one to teach to wait after a contact. He gets so excited to continue that he looks back at me for instruction and if I'm not fast enough, he'll make it up himself. He's not really a thinking dog, more of a doer.

My club is teaching contacts by having the handler steady/slow the dog upon decent of the Dog Walk or A-Frame and have it sit at the bottom -- the idea here is that by slowing down near the bottom, the dog will learn it's not allowed to sneak off the side/edge. Is this similar to what you mean by teaching a dog to wait after a contact except that rather than slowing the dog down at the end, you'd have it hoon down then slam the breaks on at the bottom?

[pie]

My club is teaching contacts by having the handler steady/slow the dog upon decent of the Dog Walk or A-Frame and have it sit at the bottom -- the idea here is that by slowing down near the bottom, the dog will learn it's not allowed to sneak off the side/edge. Is this similar to what you mean by teaching a dog to wait after a contact except that rather than slowing the dog down at the end, you'd have it hoon down then slam the breaks on at the bottom?

Hi RSA, a lot of people teach contacts by back chaining the behaviour. What this means is you teach the end of a behaviour and work backwards to build it.

So for contacts, the way I teach (with a clicker) it is first to train the dog to keep two back feet on an object (phone book or similar) teaching them to find position and stay there until released, then I would transfer that to a small plank, then to the end of the contact equipment (lowered) then lift the dog and put them slightly higher up and get them to find the position, then higher, then over the lowered equipment, then raise it gradually to full height, all the while maintaining thew criteria that the dog must do it at speed and know their job, and not progressing until they do. Of course there are many other methods etc, and you can do a variation of this with a nose target/paw target placed on the ground.

I do know of people who just get the dog going over the obstacle first and then add on the contact behaviour, but most I know backchain it. You don't want a dog to slowly come down the other side of the obstacle (known as creeping) you want them to drive into that 2 on 2 off position (or whatever position you want).

They usually just get people on obstacles ASAP in standard agility classes because that's what new people want, they want to 'do agility' (was the case with my first dog too) but if your goal is to trial it may be worth looking at the bigger picture, I changed it with my second dog and shaped every obstacle before linking them up and it made a world of difference come trialling time.

Sounds like you guys are having fun, and doing great :D :thumbsup:

[Kavik]

RSA - I can't answer your question fully because I never train on leash but I suspect even tabs could get caught up in jumps. I don't think a harness is safe either. Are you teaching your dog an end contact behaviour? The way I prefer to train is NOT to slow your dog down over the contacts but to teach them to race as fast as possible to the end of the contact and wait for you there. It's a surprisingly complex behaviour to teach - you need good instruction - and the dog really needs to understand his job. I am retraining contacts at the moment and am loving the new found confidence and understanding my dogs are developing. It means much more fun for all of us and that is my ultimate aim! Sounds like you are doing a great job of maintaining focus - keep working on tug away from agility so as not to mix the two together until he is a confident tugger. It's a great skill to teach a dog and a wonderful challenge to train a non-tugging dog (my Dally was one!) I use a lot of food also - cheese cubes are sensational (broken in half or quarters) as you can throw them - easily seen on the grass and it gets the reward off your body. Or throw the food filled tug and race your dog to it, play like crazy woman and make him work to get the food out. Have fun!

I guess I'm just worried about training Zeus completely off leash because he does have a horrible habit of running off and crossing the main highway at our local off leash park. Zeus is usually quite good at recall thought when my focus is on him 100% so I might give it a try next week. I think he might be less inclined to run off at training because he really seems to enjoy the work we're doing and he hasn't formed a learned habit like he has at the dog park.

Zeus I think will be a hard one to teach to wait after a contact. He gets so excited to continue that he looks back at me for instruction and if I'm not fast enough, he'll make it up himself. He's not really a thinking dog, more of a doer.

My club is teaching contacts by having the handler steady/slow the dog upon decent of the Dog Walk or A-Frame and have it sit at the bottom -- the idea here is that by slowing down near the bottom, the dog will learn it's not allowed to sneak off the side/edge. Is this similar to what you mean by teaching a dog to wait after a contact except that rather than slowing the dog down at the end, you'd have it hoon down then slam the breaks on at the bottom?

That is how I was told to do it about 10 years ago lol.

Nowadays my aim is to have my dog do the contact equipment independently - to run as fast as he can over the equipment no matter where I am or what I am doing, and to stop at the end with 2 feet on the board and 2 feet on the grass, without any prompting from me, until I release him.

This is one example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuyq_4SNEtw

[pie]

OMG the 'distraction' dog in that video looks so much like my dog! Unfortunately that is the only similarity between my dogs and the video Because their contacts sure don't look like that

[The Spotted Devil]

Yes! What pie and Kavik said....RSA we just don't want you making the same mistakes WE did lol

[The Spotted Devil]

I just had a very enlightening little session....before I took Em retrieving training I spent 5-10 mins with both dogs on the weaves. I started with Em in a sit stay whilst Zig trained then vice versa. Zig is really good so I was just pushing and testing and trying to tempt him out but he only fell for my tricky ways once. Em's weaves are sensational if I am in front of her but, if I'm behind her, her head comes up for the last 2-3 weaves. So I set her up with the 4 end poles only.....started by throwing food but she was still looking up. I improvised and used Zig's jacket as a target mat and let Em see me drop a piece of cheese on it. She did the first pole, then raced flat out to get the food (way too quick for me if I'm behind her) - so of course she ate the food BUT I gave my NRM (in a bright, cheery voice) and repeated the exercise. Even though she had eaten the treat the verbal marker appeared to override it because this time she concentrated really hard and completed the 4 weaves. Once she'd eaten the treat I hand fed her a jackpot. I repeated this, adding 2 extra poles until she was doing 8 with her head down and driving hard all the way to the target mat/treat. If she "cheated" I only had to use my NRM for her to gather herself and fix it the next time around. I never stop learning.

[Tassie]

Sounds good TSD. I had a session with three two the other day in the backyard. My strategy was, if you don't meet criteria of correct entry and going all the way through correctly, you miss the chance for reinforcement ..NRM oops, pull out, other dog gets a chance, same conditions..you want to you must meet criteria. Took a few false starts, but when they realised I was serious, they worked their little butts off :-).

By the way, agree with backchaining the end of the contacts if you want fast stopped contacts. Mind you, be careful what you wish for...I've reinforced the end so heavily that I now have a major contact suck :-)

[The Spotted Devil]

Ha! I'm making sure I balance contact training with other heavily rewarded stuff so fingers crosses! The thing that amazed me was that the NRM had an effect even though she got the treat.

[Tassie]

That is interesting, isn't it...I do think NRMs are significant, and that experience kind of supports that. I suspect she figured she only got the treat because she could beat you ;-)

Think part of Rory's problem is that he doesn't get to see the contacts very often. Most of the end behaviour was learned on a makeshift contact board. And i didn't work heard enough at putting that on stimulus control ...oops!