Podengo Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 From what I've seen with other people from my club that have tried and failed to train running contacts is that they have tried with low-drive dogs, and they aren't maintaining clear criteria... So the dogs are often trotting the dog walk (instead of RUNNING!) in training and getting rewarded for it, then jumping off in trials because they are slightly more excited and are running. I think it's really important to make sure the dog is flat out running the contact from day one when it is flat on the ground, if they are running properly, then they aren't jumping. That's my thoughts at least, but we'll see :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 We have a few people here who have properly trained running contacts, from varying methods, but one handler who has used both Sylvia's method and Dawn Weaver method said the DW method is her preferred (turns seem better) and we have had a few people retraining stopped contats with the Dawn Weaver stopped contact method - just to throw yet another option in there :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I chose ST because it is free :laugh: poor university student and all that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I chose ST because it is free :laugh: poor university student and all that.... I hear you baby :laugh: Super work with your youngster.....was asked the other night why I didn't train RC with Em but I simply don't have the time, space or equipment to do it. I started with a 2o/2o target with her and she turned it into a 2o/2o drop on the DW. Just suits her flexible body shape I guess so I let her go. _megan - I have only just started back agility trialling again after all my O/S gallivanting so not sure what you are up to - are you entered this weekend? I will be at KCC Saturday for Group 3 agility and Ballarat on Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I don't have the equipment either, another part of the challenge! I don't have room for any agility gear though, not even a full set of weaves. I am a committee member for my club though, and was able to get keys to the club for summer while training was off.. So went to club every second day for a few months to work on some stuff. Now formal training classes are off for the winter, so I can get out whatever I want 2 nights a week and train... will hopefully be enough :D I think the process would be MUCH easier if I had a full size DW/room for one. That's why I am considering training A-frames with the box, not sure the running DW behaviour can be transferred to an A-frame easily, or if I'll have to start from scratch with the A-frame with lots of repetitions... If I can do a lot of the training away from a full A-frame that would be very handy, as the A-frame is too big to be dragging in and out every training night... DW I can at least set up on my own if no one else wants to train with it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Just food for thought on contacts...... At the IFCS CCOA in Texas last week most of the top competitors had a stopped DW and a running aframe. Those who did have running DW seemed to have problems managing what was going on at the end of it simply because with the blindingly fast dogs we were running they just couldn't get there. FWIW my next dog will have running a-frame and stopped DW. The DW's seemed more problems than they were worth and the a-frame was saving about 1-2 seconds it was just AMAZING to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 TSD you must be confusing me with someone else, as I don't think we've met? AD - were you there in person? One of the reason that Susan G has introduced dozens of verbals is so that she can direct the dog without being in position. That said, I agree with you and I would train the stopped DW. In terms of saving time, Sylvia commented that you normally only go over 2 - 3 contacts in a run and do many, many more jumps - so the place to really save time is to teach tight turns vs long strides etc on jumps (hence her sic sac). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 AD - were you there in person? One of the reason that Susan G has introduced dozens of verbals is so that she can direct the dog without being in position. That said, I agree with you and I would train the stopped DW. In terms of saving time, Sylvia commented that you normally only go over 2 - 3 contacts in a run and do many, many more jumps - so the place to really save time is to teach tight turns vs long strides etc on jumps (hence her sic sac). Sure was. :) I learned a massive amount and had a heap of fun running a big and a small dog. Verbals....hmmmmm......IMO even Swagger has a lot more questions than Encore and Feature used to. It's going to take a lot to convince me that the European style, APHS or a verbal based system is better than GD's system when used by someone who CAN get into position. Privately some of Susan's trainers would probably agree on that. Add to that - there are very few dog trainers as good as SG. Not many of us can train our dogs to the level that she can. I think you are totally right though - jumping and tight turns is where the bulk of the time came from. That said in their Steeple Chase no one with a stopped contact (even if quick released) could get close to the running A-frame dogs. It was truly breathtaking to watch some of them. As a rule though (and there are exceptions) the dogs in the US are much higher drive than most of our dogs and that drive is used to create MASSIVE acceleration that we just don't see here. That said I don't think they understand collection as well as our dogs do. (Again, there are exceptions.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Interesting :) Are you on the Paw Blacks facebook page? The NZ team have been posting heaps of great updates from Texas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Interesting :) Are you on the Paw Blacks facebook page? The NZ team have been posting heaps of great updates from Texas! I am indeed. :) Bronwen added me the other day. The Kiwi team did a really good job with some quite green dogs and the tricky handling system that is so different to what we are all used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Interesting :) Are you on the Paw Blacks facebook page? The NZ team have been posting heaps of great updates from Texas! I am indeed. :) Bronwen added me the other day. The Kiwi team did a really good job with some quite green dogs and the tricky handling system that is so different to what we are all used to. Yes it would take some getting used to! Looking forward to seeing if they run any seminars here to share what they have learned. Have any of the Aussie team competed in Europe before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 _megan - sorry, should have explained myself better! I just remembered you were thinking about trialling (maybe?) and if you were currently doing so it would be nice to catch up. I tend to hang out with the same people at trials but think it's good to welcome new people. If you're not trialling that's cool :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 (edited) I plan to but need to fill out all my forms first. Would love to hang out with you and your pooches when I finally get organized. I've stewarded at a few trials and have seen you, zig and em doing very well. There is another Megan that trials so I thought you might mean her. Edited May 2, 2013 by megan_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 (edited) Interesting :) Are you on the Paw Blacks facebook page? The NZ team have been posting heaps of great updates from Texas! I am indeed. :) Bronwen added me the other day. The Kiwi team did a really good job with some quite green dogs and the tricky handling system that is so different to what we are all used to. Yes it would take some getting used to! Looking forward to seeing if they run any seminars here to share what they have learned. Have any of the Aussie team competed in Europe before? Simone competed at the WAO last hear, but with a GD trained dog. Nat and I went to WAC last year and Nat did WAC in England in 2010. This was my favourite run from the competition. Such hard courses - very FCI style and definitely not anything like we are used to running. and this was the little Sheltie I played with. She needed HEAPS of managing around the courses - she just shopped for obstacles the entire way. We did end up fourth in the All Around though. Edited May 2, 2013 by Agility Dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I plan to but need to fill out all my forms first. Would love to hang out with you and your pooches when I finally get organized. I've stewarded at a few trials and have seen you, zig and em doing very well. There is another Megan that trials so I thought you might mean her. Good on you for stewarding! I'm always running between rings it seems but it would be great to meet you :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Cute little sheltie - good timing too, I have just been researching shelties tonight, they are super uncommon as agility dogs in NZ, which is odd as they do seem to dominate the small height classes around the rest of the world. Now if only they came in a smooth coat variety :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Cute little sheltie - good timing too, I have just been researching shelties tonight, they are super uncommon as agility dogs in NZ, which is odd as they do seem to dominate the small height classes around the rest of the world. Now if only they came in a smooth coat variety :laugh: Clippers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Cute little sheltie - good timing too, I have just been researching shelties tonight, they are super uncommon as agility dogs in NZ, which is odd as they do seem to dominate the small height classes around the rest of the world. Now if only they came in a smooth coat variety :laugh: Clippers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 (edited) Well after a loooong break we were back at training last night (KCC hasn't had lights for us for many, many months...) Fergs remembered a lot more than I thought he would. Just goes to show a break can do them good! He nailed is contacts (2o2o) and ran them reasonably fast. On our final attempt at the DW, I asked the instructor to hold his collar and I really razzed him up (standing ahead of him : "ready? ready? let's show those border collies how it's done etc"...this drives him wild!). I started ahead of him and released him. He flew - I have never seen him run so fast on a DW, he was running flat out, very confidently. He blew the contacts, but that is no surprise as he was sooooo excited. So.... i) How do I get him to run that fast without a restrained recall (I razz him up with a tug, he goes fast, but not like the restrained recall) ii) How to I balance the control of 2o2o with the speed? It seems to me that if I go back and put him on, and only reward him if he does the end behaviour that I'm inadvertently rewarding him to go slow(er). He is still running, but it isn't a bat-out-of-hell sprint like he did last night. Should I reward the speed and not worry about the contact for a while? ETA: Well done AD! I can't imagine that my dogs would run for someone else. I love the technical courses. Edited May 3, 2013 by megan_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 (edited) Well after a loooong break we were back at training last night (KCC hasn't had lights for us for many, many months...) Fergs remembered a lot more than I thought he would. Just goes to show a break can do them good! He nailed is contacts (2o2o) and ran them reasonably fast. On our final attempt at the DW, I asked the instructor to hold his collar and I really razzed him up (standing ahead of him : "ready? ready? let's show those border collies how it's done etc"...this drives him wild!). I started ahead of him and released him. He flew - I have never seen him run so fast on a DW, he was running flat out, very confidently. He blew the contacts, but that is no surprise as he was sooooo excited. So.... i) How do I get him to run that fast without a restrained recall (I razz him up with a tug, he goes fast, but not like the restrained recall) ii) How to I balance the control of 2o2o with the speed? It seems to me that if I go back and put him on, and only reward him if he does the end behaviour that I'm inadvertently rewarding him to go slow(er). He is still running, but it isn't a bat-out-of-hell sprint like he did last night. Should I reward the speed and not worry about the contact for a while? ETA: Well done AD! I can't imagine that my dogs would run for someone else. I love the technical courses. :) Thanks. Well done getting back! For me it would be about getting that level of arousal a step or two back - can you get it when you are just doing end behaviour and can Fergs hold it in that environment - look for this before adding in the extra hype of the full dog walk - same way you taught the DW in the first place, just at a higher level. On getting the arousal w/o the restrain - you need to add value into the running or DW or whatever it is. So it will mean reps. Also, change up the picture on the restrain. Sometimes run from behind, sometimes from in front, sometimes not at all. Sometimes rev him up before he is restrained and turn and run just before he is. This takes time, but it works, we are using it for my younger dog ATM and the results are coming, but we are talking months, not weeks. Hope that helps. Edited May 3, 2013 by Agility Dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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