Agility Training Talk Thread

[Sayreovi]

We had our first masters jumping trial today and went well considering our lack of training. No passes but the nasty little twists and turns we did pretty well, so I was really happy with that and doing 24 obstacles is something we've never done before.

One nasty discrimination was 2 tunnels right next to each other touching at a 90 degree angle, nearly all dogs got the first one going to the left, but due to the angle when heading to the next one it was literally a blind entry, the dogs could only see the wrong tunnel directly in front of them not the (correct) one to the right. Hard to explain LOL Caught out a few dogs and Jovi headed to the tunnel she went in first time even though I spun her around trying to straighten her up, she put her head in the tunnel realised it was the wrong one and correct herself. So pretty happy with that :)

Somewhere along the line my non tunnel suck dog decided she wanted to blind cross me into a tunnel as well :laugh: Our only clear run she went over time which was a bugger but we were always going to push that one as it was 170m in only 40 secs, she would have full pelt around to make that time! The little fiddly courses with tricky parts will be our forte.

She was very all over the place though, need to work on her drive at comps and I need to pick and chose runs. Running from one ring to another with her is never going to go well when it's warm, I need to remember she is a dog that wants/needs a decent break between runs even though she seems fine.

Edited April 7, 2013 by tollersowned

[Tassie]

Sometimes days with no passes can be just as rewarding TO. :) Sounds like you and Jovi had a good time together, and that you learnt quite a bit about what will suit her - that's always important.

I so know the feeling about trying to make time in JDM - Kirra and I have the same problem - but a nice run with no course faults always feels good. Also know the feeling of a non-tunnel suck dog suddenly deciding that a particular tunnel (off course of course :laugh: ) is hugely inviting. You don't know whether to laugh or cry :laugh: .

[The Spotted Devil]

Good on you TO! It was an awful day for trialling....unseasonably hot and muggy for April with a temperamental breeze and little shade near the rings.

Ziggy really felt the heat but tried his Spotted heart out as per usual. From 6 runs he had 5 clear rounds but went just over time in two of the Masters Jumping courses. It's been a long time since that's happened but he was definitely running more slowly and wasn't turning as sharply. He picked up a very nice 2nd place in Open Jumping (an awkward distance challenge over a broad jump and into the tunnel but he read my shoulders and took the right entry!) plus a 4th place (2nd place 600 height) and 5th place (1st place 600 height) in Masters Agility from around 40 entries. The cycling and swimming seems to have paid off as he bounced out of bed this morning. Wish I could say the same for me!!!

My aim for Em was to run HARD all day, have fun and never mind the quallies - she didn't drop her head and sniff at all which is great progress as my handling often leaves her a bit worried. She wrestled with me, played tug, did nose touches, spins and said hi to lots of new people and dogs. Had some really good advice from people I respect who picked up on a couple of things:

1) I'm still running her like I would an experienced dog - not giving her enough time to find her weave entry, for example, before either running off or babysitting.

2) She is having FUN. I need to stop worrying about her.

3) Enter her in less runs. She is finding the sharper angles and unfamiliar seesaw in Open confidence sapping even though I run with her and don't expect her to do the distance challenge. Less is more and all that.

4) She is jumping REALLY early. High but early. And seems to do so more in trials so is smashing jumps. Will go away and do some grid work with a trainer I really respect.

Edited April 8, 2013 by The Spotted Devil

[Tassie]

Some of those things with Em really resonate with me and the misguided missile. I have to keep remembering he is who he is - and doesn't know what Kirra knows.

But sounds like a productive day for you too, TSD - and on the places and Qs - and on the good run near misses. And great that Ziggy pulled up well this morning. That was one of the things I was pleased about with all Kirra's runs at our Bonanza double weekend.

Our next agility trial isn't until the 27th - and there are two weekends of double/double Rally and Obedience trials in between. No rest for the wicked. And daylight saving ended, so agility training will have to wait till the school holidays - 2 weeks to go - but who's counting :D .

[The Spotted Devil]

I'm working nights at the moment Tassie, which makes training much easier.

So many people told me they do the same thing with their subsequent dogs even the really, really good trainers/handlers - assume they can do stuff without teaching it properly. I have to slap myself on the back of the head and remember that Zig started agility TRAINING at the age of 2. Em is only 2 and a half AND has been training hard at retrieving AND hasn't trialled in agility for 5 months AND I've been overseas for 2 of those

[Tassie]

LOL - yes, she doesn't really need a note, does she :laugh: . But it's comforting to know that others have the same problem.

[RubyStar]

Well done you lot on what sounds like a great weekend! Agreed that rewarding runs don't necessarily have to be clear runs!

We had a trial on Saturday and it was stinkin' hot! My dogs didn't cope. Millie was all over the shop, not really into it at all I have to find her mojo, as she's lost a bit of it even with night time training, so I need to make it more fun. I suspect a lot is fitness, too. Something we are working on.

Ruby faired a bit better, but I think Ruby has more stamina than Millie in the fitness stakes and recovers quicker. Yet again another single penalty standing in our way of a masters jumping pass! She just had one jump refusal on an easy part! Doh! Think I pulled her off it. But I was really chuffed with how she ran :) Oh but even if she got it, we were over time Sure she isn't fast, but she ran it fairly decently so I think the course time must have been tight.

I know agility is all about getting the fastest clear round, but as long as it doesn't take a ridiculous amount of time, I sometimes think these course times are too harsh and stands in the way of slower dogs being able to progress their way. Sure they won't win or gain Ag Ch status, but if they are reliable and can run clear, I don't think a course time should stand in their way!!

Edited April 8, 2013 by RubyStar

[Tassie]

I think you're right, RS ... about the times getting a bit too tight in JDM. I've got to a stage where it doesn't really matter to me, but as an older handler, even with a fairly fast dog, I'd be really struggling if I was chasing a title pass.

[Kavik]

It is much harder in the UK - you have to come first in your class to progress!

[The Spotted Devil]

I understand where you're coming from.....the first time Zig missed a JDM pass because of time (less than a second!) I was soooo disappointed. Watching the video back he ran beautifully but was taking big, wide loopy turns which was costing him seconds. My handling was a bit crap also. I had a few private lessons, got my decel cues sorted out and he's never missed out on time since (until yesterday, but I blame the heat!) I also worked on tugging, enthusiasm and all sorts of things which perhaps I wouldn't have bothered with as much had he got his passes more easily. So I'm grateful in a strange kind of way :laugh: Some of the best handlers I know aren't that fast - they teach independent obstacles and move to get into positional cues. I'm noticing my ability to do that with Ziggy now that we're a more experienced team - I send him "out' and step into position - it's so much better than running myself ragged!

[megan_]

It is much harder in the UK - you have to come first in your class to progress!

Susan Garrett did a good comparison of US vs Europe with regards to this. When Lynda OH was out here she said we worry way to much about getting the Q and not going fast. Her words: next time I visit I want to see fast dogs, even if you make lots of mistakes. Those are easier to fix.

We haven't had much training due to no lights at KCC *shakes fists at DogsVic for the drama that started last year and has continued*. In their wisdom they decided to dig up the only area with lights at the same time as getting lights put up in the main area - so now there is no nighttime venue available.

Ferg's back feels stiff again, but he is still hooning around. We're going back to the physio (only noticed the soreness when a naturopath had a very good feel of it). Sigh. I guess the "good" news is that it can't be agility that is causing the issue as we've barely done any. He doesn't have good conformation (he is an oodle cross) and so I think he'd have soreness just from being a dog and doing zoomies etc.

It does leave me with a conundrum. He LOVES agility, but do I stop it because it can't help the issue? I am more of a "live a full life and don't wrap them in cotton wool" kinda person but I worry that my decision to keep him at it will harm him in the long run. Then I look at how excited he is to do his agility and how great it is for both of us and I think maybe it is best to take the risk IYKWIM? I asked the physio point blank last time if I should stop him and she said no. I don't care about titles at all (I haven't even trialled him yet and would happily train even if they scrapped all comps). I just love training him, watching him enjoy himself and problem solve together. Any advice?

ETA: Susan has also introduced a whole lot of verbal cues because with the international courses sometimes you can't even get into position even with a dog that works at great distances.

Edited April 8, 2013 by megan_

[Kavik]

Yeah I read Susan's comparison, it was very interesting. Must be very tough in those places where you have to come first though, how disheartening for a newbie! Especially if you are competing against experienced competitors with up and coming young dogs.

[RubyStar]

Susan Garrett did a good comparison of US vs Europe with regards to this. When Lynda OH was out here she said we worry way to much about getting the Q and not going fast. Her words: next time I visit I want to see fast dogs, even if you make lots of mistakes. Those are easier to fix.

Is there somewhere I can read more about this?

Susan says to get Accuracy before Speed (the whole DASH principle), so its a case of which is the primary focus? Speed or Accuracy! I'm confuuused!

I think I much prefer a dog who runs at their fastest ability and pays attention to the job at hand, than one who slogs along either disinterested, or going slow for accuracy (and depending on the day, my Millie can be both those dogs! Highly frustrating!!)

I have slow Labs so know that side of it, and a Schnauzer who has the ability to be fast if she wants (which is so much fun! And bloody exhausting!) When Pippa starts trialling, I think I want to just run flat out with her to keep her engaged and worry about accuracy later, hoping that she won't get bored with the game... but I will have to remind myself of that on course, because when I am out there, my plan always changes and I babysit too much!!

[Kavik]

Here you go:

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2013/03/what-does-internationalization-in-dog-agility-really-mean/

[RubyStar]

Thanks, Kavik :)

[Tassie]

It's an interesting debate, isn't it. I'd like to think there is a way, as Susan suggests at the end, to try to have the advantages of both systems. I guess I'm in the happy position of being towards the later stages of my agility career, and Kirra's - although I hope I can get the misguided missile going too. Kirra owes me absolutely nothing, but is still very keen to run - she's probably lost a little speed, but hasn't lost any determination - and I'm still enjoying playing round with new handling challenges - like the FCI push outs round the back of the jumps. Luckily too, Kirra likes her space, so prefers distance handling. So I'm enjoying doing what we can - and if the Qs come, they come - if not, I love when we have a good run. (The nice thing for me is that I'm now, thanks to many gurus - including some WA ones) able to transfer this mind set to obedience now too - and it's become so much more enjoyable and so much less stressful. :) )

[The Spotted Devil]

RS, I think in terms of training you need to break things down such that the dog learns to do things with speed and accuracy from the get go...which is why I like 2x2 weaves so much. In training, simplify. In trials, run like hell :laugh:

[Podengo]

In NZ we have more of a win-based system, it's not totally like Europe, but you certainly can't finish a CH or GRCH without winning. To get out of the lowest classes you can either win out, or amass 25 clear rounds. To get into the highest level classes you need wins.

I don't think newbies find it discouraging, some people are stuck in the lower classes for years (and never get out), but what would be worse is moving up to a higher class and never making course time because your dog is slow or you aren't a good handler... I don't think the highest classes should be a free for all, they are there for people competing towards agility championship titles.

[Sayreovi]

Sometimes days with no passes can be just as rewarding TO. :) Sounds like you and Jovi had a good time together, and that you learnt quite a bit about what will suit her - that's always important.

I so know the feeling about trying to make time in JDM - Kirra and I have the same problem - but a nice run with no course faults always feels good. Also know the feeling of a non-tunnel suck dog suddenly deciding that a particular tunnel (off course of course :laugh: ) is hugely inviting. You don't know whether to laugh or cry :laugh: .

:laugh:

They are sent to try us sometimes and the hard part is she never ever would do it at training so it's just something she decides to do on a whim :laugh:

Good on you TO! It was an awful day for trialling....unseasonably hot and muggy for April with a temperamental breeze and little shade near the rings.

3) Enter her in less runs. She is finding the sharper angles and unfamiliar seesaw in Open confidence sapping even though I run with her and don't expect her to do the distance challenge. Less is more and all that.

Thanks, yeah it was gross out in the sun, much hotter than expected.....she even got her cool coat put on for awhile!

I need to do the same, she can run all day as fast as she can in flyball and does so at her full height so I automatically think she can do 6-7 runs in agility. I need to pull back and only do 3 maybe 4 runs spaced well apart...well that's always the plan! Then hopefully I will see the psycho little nutcase I see at training!

I know agility is all about getting the fastest clear round, but as long as it doesn't take a ridiculous amount of time, I sometimes think these course times are too harsh and stands in the way of slower dogs being able to progress their way. Sure they won't win or gain Ag Ch status, but if they are reliable and can run clear, I don't think a course time should stand in their way!!

I think that too, how on earth do dogs that aren't quick get around those massive courses in the time required? Makes me want to be a judge and do courses just for smaller dogs in mind :p

[RubyStar]

RS, I think in terms of training you need to break things down such that the dog learns to do things with speed and accuracy from the get go...which is why I like 2x2 weaves so much. In training, simplify. In trials, run like hell :laugh:

That's what I'm doing in training, though in the learning stages one or the other is going to lead the way temporarily while the other catches up (speed vs accuracy). I was just saying my plans in trials get abandoned and I babysit and I tend to go for accuracy over speed (though I rarely get either these days!!) So I'm determined to work on speed and enthusiasm with Pippa in trials (as we work on it in training), and hope the accuracy we've worked on in training holds enough in trials!

Edited April 8, 2013 by RubyStar