Agility Training Talk Thread

[sheena]

Interesting point, sheena. Has this happened to anyone before?

I have seen dogs do it on course, but never taken any notice of what the judge says. What made me think of it was your video, Vickie teaching your pup 2o2o & like a good little girl, she shuffled her feet back on the contact. Loved that video by the way, you must have had some yummy treats...she was all yours were you using a clicker as well??

[J...]

I don't think it's anything to do with handling, pressure or the like - looks like a straight out lack of value for the weave poles, and a lack of arousal as a result. If she had sufficient value for the weave poles, it wouldn't matter what your handling looked like, even if you tripped over and landed on your butt, she should still hit those poles correctly when they are right in front like that.

Go back to SG's One Jump DVD where she refers to the training challenge at a camp. One group of students had to get their dogs to drive into a PVC box with the students in as many body positions as they possibly could. The other group had to be able to send their dogs from as far away as possible. The students who could get their dogs in the box while sitting, standing, one leg up, kneeling etc where able to send their dogs from twice the distance as the second group - because they built a heap of value for the PVC box.

[Kavik]

I think that would be more like distraction/proofing - SG's In a Box/Green Eggs and Ham :) testing their understanding that they should do the behaviour no matter what you are doing. Certainly something I need to work on with my weaves - I know there are times when I turn into Kaos or turn my body a certain way and he will stop or pull out of the weaves.

I have certainly found my basic commands have improved a lot once I started challenging his understanding with me in different body positions.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Kavik

[J...]

If the dog is weaving fine at home, fine at training then you need to up the ante into proofing. Fix the gaps, don't band aid them. Trying to handle a weave pole entry is band-aiding. Apply band-aids on more band-aids and soon you have no idea what lies underneath.

I had an issue with Darcy popping the 10th weave pole about every 5 agility runs. Drove me nuts because she only ever did it at a trial level. How do you fix it when they do it only at a trial? You proof the sh*t out of it is how. Can you send the dog from 50 metres away into the poles in any direction, run at a 90 degree angle, run in the totally opposite direction while they are half way through, throw their favourite toys in their direction while they weave, nail seemingly impossible entries from every direction, while you're sitting, falling, standing, kneeling. And that's exactly what I did. She's missed one weave entry in 2 years and not popped a weave pole since, and that's with some pretty appalling weave poles here in Vic.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Jess.

[canine fun sports]

In a trial, if a dog has been taught 2o 2o...it runs to the end & into position, but then it's back feet come off the obstacle. The dog shuffles it's feet back on cause that's what normally gets the treats. Now in a trial situation would that be considered "wrong course". I asume if the dog puts it's front feet back on & turns round, it definately would be DQ, but what if it sticks it's back feet back on. :)

In actual fact, this is not defined in the rules, and I have requested clarification on a couple of occasions. It is still the judge's decision, and I am personally guided by one of the USA trialling bodies (but i cannot remember which one!!!) In this "interpretation" the back legs have not left the obstacle if they are still "over the obstacle" So if a dog leaps over the obstacle so their front feet land just on the grass then brings their back feet up into a 2o2o position that is fine. But if the dog has all four feet over-reach the plank (even if the back feet fo not touch the ground) and it quickly reaches back with one foot to touch the contact then it is an obstacle out of order. Other judges might have a different interpretation - they might DQ both performances.

Cheers,

(edited to correct poor typing!!!)

Edited February 9, 2012 by canine fun sports

[canine fun sports]

Interesting point, sheena. Has this happened to anyone before?

Yes, I have had to make those judging decisions, and it is becoming more likely to happen with the speed of some of the dogs.

Cheers,

[RubyStar]

Thanks, Jess, more things to ponder! Build more value for weave poles, proof them more, and I will still be watching my shoulders and not turning into her to reduce the pressure. And keep driving past them, as well as send her with me doing different things. Love this thread Now I just need to find time to do it all, as I have the contacts issue to tackle, too

[Vickie]

I have seen dogs do it on course, but never taken any notice of what the judge says. What made me think of it was your video, Vickie teaching your pup 2o2o & like a good little girl, she shuffled her feet back on the contact.

What she does in the video would definitely earn a DQ as per the rules. Am I worried about it? Nope. I am enticing her to come off & reposition her back feet. It is a step in the training and one which we will move on from. I also teach my dogs to jump on and off the table fast before I ever teach them to stay on it, but they have never jumped off in a trial.

Loved that video by the way, you must have had some yummy treats...she was all yours were you using a clicker as well??

Thanks, I was especially happy with the jumping. She's only ever really done a little pinwheel, so that was a bit of an experiment to see what she would do if I just ran. Most of the training i have done with her so far has been about building a reward system. I havent trained her with a clicker & the treats i was using in the clip were the same kibble she gets in meals . Edited February 9, 2012 by Vickie

[Podengo]

Woohoo weave proofing! > Lee Windeatt Weave Proofing 2011

[megan_]

We went back to training last night after the vets all clear. It was a disaster. He didnt want to tug at all and when he lined up to go one jump (jump was on flyby floor) he ran off. Then to make things worse the instructor told me he needs a good stay at start. Um I know that and he has one he was just avoiding the jumps. So I went away and did dome obedience stuff and he fix that with enthusiasm, but he didn't want to be anywhere near a jump. Lots of sniffing and he ran off when we started going step 1 in weaves 2 by two training(not physical at all, but next to jumps).

I got told again I have to play with him but he doesn't want to play because last time play = hurt. That got me really frustrated. He IS a very focused, driver dog who loooooves agility,

he is going through a rough patch after an injury which I believe was there for months. I tried explaining that but kept eating told " try to play with him". I don't think begging him when he won't even look at me will do any good?

So I'm at a loss at what to do. I don't think going to a club and begging him to play with me for 45 mins is going to do us any good and chances are it will set us back even more. I tried tugging far away but he woulnt even look at me. So I'm either going to go and crate him the whole time, maybe with 5 mins contact training because he still loves that or just stop everything for a few months and wait to see if lessens the negstive association he seems to have. Any advice? He won't play any games at all anywhere near the agility talraining area.

[**Super_Dogs**]

Megan - sound very frustrating.

Maybe you need to go back to foundations and learn to play again like he is learning something new, so you want to start this where there are no distractions. So maybe you are best working with at home for a few weeks, then head back to training???

I know that it helps with drive to get your dog to play, but I would find it difficult with an instructor that kept pressing the point and my girl is not interested in playing. She loves working for me, but at home or training she is not interested in playing - she just sits for a treat! So instead of playing before a run we do nose touches, spins and other things like this. Then her reward at the end of food!!!!!

Good luck!

[canine fun sports]

We went back to training last night after the vets all clear. It was a disaster. He didnt want to tug at all and when he lined up to go one jump (jump was on flyby floor) he ran off. Then to make things worse the instructor told me he needs a good stay at start. Um I know that and he has one he was just avoiding the jumps. So I went away and did dome obedience stuff and he fix that with enthusiasm, but he didn't want to be anywhere near a jump. Lots of sniffing and he ran off when we started going step 1 in weaves 2 by two training(not physical at all, but next to jumps).

I got told again I have to play with him but he doesn't want to play because last time play = hurt. That got me really frustrated. He IS a very focused, driver dog who loooooves agility,

he is going through a rough patch after an injury which I believe was there for months. I tried explaining that but kept eating told " try to play with him". I don't think begging him when he won't even look at me will do any good?

So I'm at a loss at what to do. I don't think going to a club and begging him to play with me for 45 mins is going to do us any good and chances are it will set us back even more. I tried tugging far away but he woulnt even look at me. So I'm either going to go and crate him the whole time, maybe with 5 mins contact training because he still loves that or just stop everything for a few months and wait to see if lessens the negstive association he seems to have. Any advice? He won't play any games at all anywhere near the agility talraining area.

I would not go back to club yet.

Go get yourself a tunnel (I am assuming he does not have the negative associations with a tunnel), take it up to a park that he does not associate with agility and have a lot of fun playing tunnel games with him. After you have been doing that for a couple of weeks, also take a cross bar (no uprights) and toss your toy/food over the bar as he comes out of the tunnel. If he is still enjoying it, introduce the uprights and VERY gradually increase the jump height. Once he is happy with that, put a jump before the tunnel. If he works through that you should be able to quickly esculate it to going back to club.

Cheers,

[megan_]

Thanks. This is what I'm thinking too. He normally loves playing at training but his heart isn't in it st the moment. I'll ask the club what the deal is if i just don't come for a few months. They are so hard to get into in vic! Going to the club at the moment just made me more frustrated... CDs I have a tunnel so I'll try a few games with it this weekend

[Cosmolo]

Megan do you have a jump (i'd just make it pole on ground so not actually having to 'jump') at home you can do some free shaping with?

[megan_]

Yes - I have a few

[kelpiechick]

Hi Megan,

I totally get how frustrating this must be. I am working with a student at one of the clubs where I instruct atm who has suddenly developed similar issues (dog was fine until getting up to Masters Jumping, which is a whole other issue in itself) and have been through it to a lesser extent with one of my kelpies after he had a year off following an injury.

It's so hard when we love the game so much and they don't want to play with the same enthusiasm. I agree with CFS that I would take some time away from club - or even come along to training but not actually train and try to recreate some 'excitement' with the venue by doing other things. Remember you can also keep working on your own 'training' by working on your running and footwork without your dog - as you would have seen at GD seminar.

A couple of other things I would recommend. There is a terrific DVD called 'The Poisoned Cue' by Jesus Rosales-Ruiz which is part of 'The Click that Teaches' series. It's actually aimed at horse trainers but the concepts are very relevant to dogs and they use dogs to demonstrate. It won't give you help with your issue but will give you insight into why issues sometimes develop to begin with, namely because we 'poison' a particular behaviour and even the word associated with cueing that behaviour without realising that we are doing it. And it definitely sounds to me as if your startline behaviour or even actually taking a jump might fit into this category.

I would spend the next few weeks working on building that Reinforcement Zone up again. Play games (doesn't have to be with a toy), run with him, let him chase you, teach tricks, lots and lots of shaping exercises where he gets the opportunity to get a ton of rewards (have a look at any of the Silvia Trkman DVD's and watch her position and rate of reinforcement) Try crate games to begin to fix your startline issues. A lot of the Control Unleashed games are good too. I would also use a video to do a couple of startlines on the flat (no equipment in sight) and actually watch your body language and his - sometimes we are cueing things that we don't even realise we are doing and video is a great tool for picking this up. Watch carefully how you bring him up to the line, sit him up, walk away and if there is any sign of 'shut down' see if you can pinpoint the place where it is occurring, this might give you some more information to work with. The issue might have nothing to do with your startline and might totally be related to the jumps but it's easy for the 2 to get linked together without realising. Sometimes it's even valuable to be aware of what you do from the moment you take your dog out of the car to the moment you get into the ring.... it's very easy to disconnect with a dog that's not totally driven and not even realise you are doing it, probably easy with a driven dog too in some ways.

It might also be helpful to develop a reinforcement list. Susan Garrett talks about this in one of her books (most likely 'Ruff Love') and I think there is something on her website about it too. If you haven't done it before, it's basically just columns with headings for how much value dog has for particular reinforcements (Crazy About, Likes, Indifferent, Dislikes, etc.) and then you list every single thing you can think of, no matter how silly. Idea is to work with items from 'Crazy' column to reward if you can, but bearing in mind that if there are items here that don't put you in the picture (like chasing sheep along the fence or running with other dogs) and items much lower down that would be better (like tugging) then you work on changing the value but away from the agility context. If you can't find this, PM me as I have a sheet that I made for myself when training and review it every 6 months or so. (Actually been interesting to see the changes in my BC compared to the first one I did at 3 months old)

Are there any instructors at your club that might be willing to help you develop an action plan to deal with these issues or maybe do private lessons ? That might help as well as they know your dog and you better than we do over the internet and might already have some insight into why this has happened.

I hope at least some of this has been helpful and that you find the answers you need. It most likely will take a lot of 'trial and error' along the way.

Edited February 10, 2012 by kelpiechick

[Tassie]

Some great advice here, Megan. Another thing it might be worth trying - and again away from club - is pretending he doesn't know how to jump, and teaching jumping again as if he was a puppy. I'm think the Susan Salo puppy or foundation jumping dvds - starting with jump bumps - might be good. Obviously play training - using bait plates, toy targets etc.

[Agility Dogs]

Thanks. This is what I'm thinking too. He normally loves playing at training but his heart isn't in it st the moment. I'll ask the club what the deal is if i just don't come for a few months. They are so hard to get into in vic! Going to the club at the moment just made me more frustrated... CDs I have a tunnel so I'll try a few games with it this weekend

Bummer- know how this one feels, but for a different reason.

My boy is the biggest sook in the world if he is allowed to get away with it. At one point when we were tugging a slug (like a snail without a shell) got caught on the coat on one of his legs. Clearly it was the tug's fault - it took 3 months before he would play again. :laugh:

Seriously though - the only way we could work through it was to take about 15 steps back and treat him like a puppy again, ignoring what he did know and going right back to the very basics. Once his mind came good the improvement was rapid, but we had to work through that to begin with.

Sounds like you need to go back and build value for a reward again, before trying to get him to play on equipment. Once you have something you can reward with then move back to equipment. :) Good luck!

[Vickie]

Sounds like you need to go back and build value for a reward again, before trying to get him to play on equipment. Once you have something you can reward with then move back to equipment.

Agreed!

[megan_]

Thanks all. The good thing infuses is that this forces me to go back to the beginning and re-solidify foundation work. I'm also planning on doing the derretts online foundation course I. March. When infinallt get dog #3 I'll have foundation down pat!