RubyStar Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Yes, definitely displacement behaviour, which is why I am guessing she is finding weave entries overwhelming and using the sniffing as an avoidance measure. Not sure why she is stressed, she has a ball out there and I don't come down on her if she does something wrong. She might just be sensitive and even the slightest slump of my shoulders sets her off.... but she started that sniffing in that video before she had actually done anything wrong. So who knows! If only they could talk, huh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Yes, definitely displacement behaviour, which is why I am guessing she is finding weave entries overwhelming and using the sniffing as an avoidance measure. Not sure why she is stressed, she has a ball out there and I don't come down on her if she does something wrong. She might just be sensitive and even the slightest slump of my shoulders sets her off.... but she started that sniffing in that video before she had actually done anything wrong. So who knows! If only they could talk, huh The reason I initially suggested you hang back a little is that what I see is that you are (unintentionally of course) applying pressure at the entry to the poles & she looks to me like she is responding to that pressure by kicking out. What I mean by pressure, is that you are leaning over a bit, shoulders turned toward her a bit rather than ahead, and your path converges slightly on her entry. They are all subtle things, but added together, I felt they were applying pressure when I first watched the clip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 It can take the slightest thing for some can't it. My Dobe was extremely sensitive. If she say missed a sit in training or something I couldn't even flick my eyes towards her or she looked brow beaten!!! God forbid if I even went oops. She hated getting things wrong and for her the absence of a c/t or good was enough to make her worried. Yes we did heaps of work on extending the time between c/t's so she worked happily. I would consider watching a few of your old videos of her and really looking at where you are in relation to her just before she sniffs, watch the really fine movements etc you make and see if you can come up with anything that you may think she is picking up on. Once she is motoring she looks like she is having a total blast :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canine fun sports Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 The reason I initially suggested you hang back a little is that what I see is that you are (unintentionally of course) applying pressure at the entry to the poles & she looks to me like she is responding to that pressure by kicking out. What I mean by pressure, is that you are leaning over a bit, shoulders turned toward her a bit rather than ahead, and your path converges slightly on her entry. They are all subtle things, but added together, I felt they were applying pressure when I first watched the clip. Hi all, I think Vickie and I are seeing the same thing, but suggesting different solutions. As you release your dog over the first jump you do lean in on her, I assume to try to show her the weaver entry. At this point you have definietely put too much pressure on her. I would be driving a straight line at the weaves. It is interesting that you said you did not lead out as far as you normally do. I would have preferred to see you take your normal lead out and be one third to half way up the weaves by the time she started weaving, showing her the straight line that she should be taking. If she will not take a weave entry with you ahead of her, then I would have been running hard with her showing her the st raight line to the weaves, and leaving it to her to choose the correct side for entry. So where Vickie is saying hang back, to stop you doing that "lean forward-push", I am suggesting you push forward. But after this initial "pressure" it is as though you assumed she was going to do it. I think your handling was not clear enough to your dog. This either created stress, or for a gundog it is not necessarily stress. It is just an opportunity for the sense of smell to take priority. Gundogs have a far more acute sense of smell that most other breeds, including the hounds (air scenting is more difficult that ground scenting). So unless they are concentrating on whatever else they are doing, their sense of smell easily distracts them. Believe you me, I have plenty of experience in that division, including running at masters level. This dog knows what to do. Perhaps you need to do a littler more weaver entry p[ractice (who doesn't) but you should be able to actively drive her through the whole course. Just another opinion to consider. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
**Super_Dogs** Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Thanks RS for sharing your video. I have been very interested in everyones suggestions as I have a similar problems - and funny enough also with my choc lab :laugh: We have problems with weave entries in comps. At ome when I practice from all angles and positions they are great! I think I am changing my position and posture in comps. I know whatever I am doing is putting pressure on her as she acts like she does not know what she is meant to do. I am thinking i also need to take this advice and practice a strongerand straight drive to the weaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canine fun sports Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Thanks RS for sharing your video. I have been very interested in everyones suggestions as I have a similar problems - and funny enough also with my choc lab :laugh: We have problems with weave entries in comps. At ome when I practice from all angles and positions they are great! I think I am changing my position and posture in comps. I know whatever I am doing is putting pressure on her as she acts like she does not know what she is meant to do. I am thinking i also need to take this advice and practice a strongerand straight drive to the weaves. I think the weaves are also hard for the less experienced dogs to recognise when in unfamiliar surroundings. Before gaining experience, my dogs would often miss the weaves on the first occasion, and that has continued to be the case as I have trained new dogs. Once upon a time, we used to run the same course twice - the dogs never missed them the second time becasue they knew where to look for them. Similarly, if running a different course but nested to a course they had already done (so they knew where the weaves were - even though from a different approach) they always nailed it. It is important to proof weave entries, not only from different directions, but in different locations and to add in a lot of distractions right up close to the weave entries to teach the dogs to actually actively look for them. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 One thing that really improved Ziggy's weave entries was lateral distance. I have been working on that at entries and then angling off at different points with him learning to focus forward. I've noticed at training and trials that I don't try to baby (or inadvertently pressure) him as much on entries now and he has improved out of sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I also think that it is worth proofing the different types of weavers - stick in the ground vs metal stand etc. I'm sure they look pretty different from a dog's perspective and we know they aren't good generalisers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I think one of the biggest challenges of translating our training performance into the ring is to achieve the same arousal levels (dog and handler) in both environments. There is sooooo much more happening in the trial ring, the handler is more nervous, the dogs are more excited. Revving the dogs up more in training helps us to translate to the trial ring more quickly. IMO this happens with all equipment/handling, it is just much more evident with weavers. The other thing that is also not specific to weavers is the speed at which a lot of people practice their weave entries. It is a lot easier for the dogs to nail all sorts of hard entries or to stick contacts if they are coming into them after one or even no jumps, but what about 3, 4 or 5 jumps or a tunnel in training? Something that gets them really moving before having to find the entry - comes back to arousal again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I also think that it is worth proofing the different types of weavers - stick in the ground vs metal stand etc. I'm sure they look pretty different from a dog's perspective and we know they aren't good generalisers. TOTALLY agree with this. Even different taping on the poles can be confronting for some young dogs. It took us forever to get our weaving up to scratch at one particular club that we trial at - they have much heavier taping on their weaves than anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 yep our entry to weaves after a tunnel are a little like having a rocket strapped to your back, roller skates and no brakes!!! Sometimes we pull it off, but well sometimes not :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 That's a good point Megan - a few people at my club have commented that their dogs who were trained to weave on stick in the ground poles that weren't in a perfect line can weave more reliably than ones taught on perfectly straight poles, makes sense I guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
**Super_Dogs** Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 It is a lot easier for the dogs to nail all sorts of hard entries or to stick contacts if they are coming into them after one or even no jumps, but what about 3, 4 or 5 jumps or a tunnel in training? Something that gets them really moving before having to find the entry - comes back to arousal again. This is a very good point. For me the only problem translating from training to the ring is weaves!! I will practice with a few more jumps leading up to weaves, drive at the weaves, keeping my arm up until she is in the weaves and keep a consistent lateral distance from the weave poles. I think I need consistency, consistency, consitency. This is me more so than the dog, as then I can translate this to the ring which will hopefully help her. I welcome any other suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Good point AD. We do a lot of tug around the weaving poles too which might help - tug, give, tug, give, weave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Wow guys, thanks so much for more critiquing, I honestly appreciate it!! Any volunteers to go through my entire youtube channel and pick my other agility videos to bits to help me improve? I love getting picked to bits with obedience as it helps me improve, so I welcome constructive criticism for agility, too, seeing we don't really train all that often or get much help! I will try not to turn into the dog when we approach weaves, I think that is a very valid point. I will give her more distance and keep my shoulders facing forward, shall I also keep my arm outstretched until she gets the entry? I have done practice with weaves sending her down a line of jumps, to a U shaped tunnel at the end, with weaves as soon as she exits the tunnel. As OSS said, it is like attaching a rocket backpack to the dog But she nailed it many times, so I know she is capable! Interestingly, when I did those, I ran straight past the weaves and she didn't hit her entry until I was about half way up the weaves. Admittedly, I am too scared to do that in a trial. Yep, guilty your honour, for trialling different to training! Edited February 9, 2012 by RubyStar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 RE: ring nerves, Mia Skosgar (sp) - who is a world champion IPO person - said that she still gets nervous. The way around it is that, once she has trained and proofed a behaviour, she gives the same body language that she does in trials in a training session (eg more stiff, no smiling) etc. This only lasts for a second or two after the behaviour has been peformed and then there is a release and a big reward event. This serves two purposes: * your dog gets used to seeing you in trial mode so it isn't unusual for them * your dog knows that after all the seriousness comes all the fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
**Super_Dogs** Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Wow guys, thanks so much for more critiquing, I honestly appreciate it!! Any volunteers to go through my entire youtube channel and pick my other agility videos to bits to help me improve? I love getting picked to bits with obedience as it helps me improve, so I welcome constructive criticism for agility, too, seeing we don't really train all that often or get much help! I will try not to turn into the dog when we approach weaves, I think that is a very valid point. I will give her more distance and keep my shoulders facing forward, shall I also keep my arm outstretched until she gets the entry? Feedback it the key to really improve. This is why I love training as when something goes wrong the instructor can tell me what I was doing. I personally find most of my errors are because I turn my sholder too quickly, drop my arm or I am not changing my pace around the course so therefore I get too far in front because I don't have to baby sit her as much as I use to and I have not adjusted yet to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 In a trial, if a dog has been taught 2o 2o...it runs to the end & into position, but then it's back feet come off the obstacle. The dog shuffles it's feet back on cause that's what normally gets the treats. Now in a trial situation would that be considered "wrong course". I asume if the dog puts it's front feet back on & turns round, it definately would be DQ, but what if it sticks it's back feet back on. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 In a trial, if a dog has been taught 2o 2o...it runs to the end & into position, but then it's back feet come off the obstacle. The dog shuffles it's feet back on cause that's what normally gets the treats. Now in a trial situation would that be considered "wrong course". I asume if the dog puts it's front feet back on & turns round, it definately would be DQ, but what if it sticks it's back feet back on. :) That would be a disqualification for wrong course obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Interesting point, sheena. Has this happened to anyone before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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