pie Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) At training the other day I was talking to someone who runs small dogs and she said that with the new rule change the minimum distance between obstacles is now smaller for the smaller dogs at separate heights competitions (2m for 200 dogs 3m for 300 dogs) and that the courses being set were testing that to the limit, she thought a bit too tight. What do people think of this? Since I run a 600 dog it won't affect me. Interesting - I have a 300 and 400 dog and I don't find current spacing to be a problem - I think 3m is a bit too close - if anything Trixie certainly likes it more spread out 5m+ rather than closer. I can see the reasoning but the same course can provide different challenges for different heights without being changed - for example - a jump that may be easily seen for a 500/600 dog may be more of an off course jump for a littlie? Also we train on courses set for all heights anyway? Wouldn't it be more confusing to the dog to be training on bigger courses and then trialling on smaller ones, particularly for the 200 dogs - 2m is nothing! I think making allowances in SCTs for smaller legs is good though. Just thinking out loud Edited September 20, 2011 by amypie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted September 20, 2011 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 At our Festival of Agility for the last 2 years we have had a separate ring for each height. Courses have been set to challenge each height group. It seems to work well & the smaller dogs face challenges in spacing thst they wouldn't normally see, but larger dogs see all the time. As someone who runs a very large striding 500 dog who faces similar challenges to some of the 600's on tighter courses, I welcome the option of having courses appropriately spaced for different heights. It is not always what the judge is testing, but sometimes it is It is important for smaller dogs to train this, just as larger dogs currently do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted September 20, 2011 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 Since I run a 600 dog it won't affect me. Actually it will/should affect you. Rings set for 600 will include larger spaces than what you will see on an all heights course. This needs to be trained too...not always as easy as you might think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I guess so - but I feel like it's hard enough to get bars dropped down for the littler dogs at times, let alone equipment moved. We only have one 200 dog in the senior class at the bigger agility club training I go to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Since I run a 600 dog it won't affect me. Actually it will/should affect you. Rings set for 600 will include larger spaces than what you will see on an all heights course. This needs to be trained too...not always as easy as you might think. The person I talked to said that the spacing for the bigger dogs remains unchanged? But if not, you are right, something that will need to be trained. It will be tricky at clubs with not many small or not many large dogs (sometimes I am the only 600). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted September 20, 2011 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 Since I run a 600 dog it won't affect me. Actually it will/should affect you. Rings set for 600 will include larger spaces than what you will see on an all heights course. This needs to be trained too...not always as easy as you might think. The person I talked to said that the spacing for the bigger dogs remains unchanged? But if not, you are right, something that will need to be trained. It will be tricky at clubs with not many small or not many large dogs (sometimes I am the only 600). Yes the rule has remained unchanged ie 4-8 metres between obstacles for 4,5,600's. However, it's not regular to see any spacing bigger than 6 metres. We should now start to see more spacing between 6-8 metres for the larger dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I am also welcoming the change for smaller dogs, it evens the playing field and gives everyone the same challenges. As we have some very fast and long striding dogs in this house we know all about the challenges of off-course jumps set 4 metres away from the ones they are taking. Some of our dogs, like Vickie's, are practically landing on that off-course obstacle just from their natural stride and it takes alot to get them around some of those ridiculously tight courses that we sometimes see. Our fastest dog runs at over 7m/sec and has an incredibly long stride. If he can handle 4m distances then a small dog can handle 2m distances. I have spoken to a few people who run small dogs that are now complaining that their dog is knocking bars because they have to bounce jump or are taking off-course jumps because they are so close. My thoughts on that are "welcome to our world". We have managed to train our dogs to cope with those challenges on a weekly basis and now it is your turn to see what we have to face out there each time we run. 4metre gaps are huge to a little dog and they have had such an easy run up until now. Before anyone asks, we also have 2 dogs here that are 200 height so it is no bias against little dogs etc (thought Id put it out there before anyone accused me). One retired about 12 months ago and I know it would have been great to have 2m gaps for her instead of the 4-8m that she was running on. Brooks would have loved it. The other one hasn't done alot of agility but if there was a novice course set at 2m distances my flatmate would probably consider running her. She is quite a fast little dog and gives our BCs a run for their money so I'm not talking a velcro dog either. None of the equipment has actually changed as such, its just jumps etc being put closer together. Some of the people who have complained loudly because they have a really wide turning small dog actually have jumps etc at home. Just start training your dog yourself and don't rely on a club to do your work for you. I have never been to a club that would not allow an experienced (by that I mean simply not brand new) person set up a few jumps off to the side to practise small sets or some bounce-jumping drills on their own. You don't need to change an entire course at training every week, you just have to expose your dog to obstacles being set closer sometimes. It's worth asking next time you are at training if you can set up 3 or 4 jumps and put them the minimum distance apart for practise. You could have straight lines, boxes, curved lines, the list is endless and that will replicate anything that you will see on a course. If you dog can do all of those individually it can put a course together, you don't need to run the entire course every time to practise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Does anyone here use blind crosses? What are your thoughts on them? Noticing more and more people using them over here, particularly after tunnels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 amypie - I don't and won't use blind crosses. I've been taught using the GD handling system, which makes really good sense to me, and blind crosses are a real no-no. I know others use them with success but I don't have the time nor inclination to investigate whether they are good or bad so am happy to accept the advice of my instructors. I spend a lot of time pulling apart retrieving and obedience training methods so it's really refreshing to be presented with an agility handling/training system that works really well for me without adjusting anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Yeah I know when I first started agility it was mainly GD based, and it was always drilled in to us to never ever ever blind cross your dog! But I see people with fast dogs who blind cross after tunnnels and when it's done well it looks so much smoother and they get ahead, I have seen some bad ones though where people didn't indicate clearly which side the dog should be on afterwards and the dog just got confused and lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I am happy to blind cross with the slow dog I run, when she is in a tunnel, but with the fast crazy boy I have to keep my eyes on him or he will take my knees out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Yeah I know when I first started agility it was mainly GD based, and it was always drilled in to us to never ever ever blind cross your dog! But I see people with fast dogs who blind cross after tunnnels and when it's done well it looks so much smoother and they get ahead, I have seen some bad ones though where people didn't indicate clearly which side the dog should be on afterwards and the dog just got confused and lost. I think that says a lot more about the handler rather than the handling system, if that makes sense. I guess I've never seen a course where I can't solve a problem by using the GD method - admittedly I haven't been trialling with Ziggy all that long though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Yep definitely talking about the handler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 My Kirra girl loves to blind cross me in everyday life - but since the GD/LD seminar in Melbourne in 2009, I try very hard not to let it happen on course. (oh and I do try to outwit her in other circumstances - it's almost become a game with her. :D ) I too find the Derrett handling makes sense for me, so I try to use it all the time. Occasionally there'll be a course where I have to layer - and I make a mental apology to Greg when I do it . Having said that, I have seen very skilled handlers with very fast dogs use them successfully - but for me, I need to try to maintain some connection with my dog - and know that she knows that I know where she's going - if you see what I mean . (Just as an aside .. I'd been conscientiously teaching 'no blind cross' to Rory - which was fine, until I started doing Rally O - and had to teach him the round the back LAT and finish. He looked at me like I was mad - " You want me to do what?????" ... but he's got it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Tassie I have always done round the back LAT and finishes with Ziggy and he never blind crosses me - whilst dogs aren't great at generalising they are amazing at picking context Just want to give a big thumbs up to my agility club's agility module system - I didn't do it with Zig but am doing it with Em, or at least what is physically suitable for a 12 month old dog (so just 2 poles, no weaving etc). Previously Em had completed the "contacts" module (lots of rear end awareness, 2o/2o, balance boards, backing up, walking through ladders etc) and the "TTT" (table, tunnel, tyre) module. Yesterday we did the seesaw module - first did the "bang" game, which she was really keen on because it involved cheese :D Then we had a break whilst others tried the low down see saw. We had missed the previous week's lesson so I was a bit hesitant but Em was straining at her leash to have a turn. I let her loose and she just about FLEW over the seesaw into a divine little drop-2o/2o position at the other end I was so shocked I nearly forgot to reward her Couldn't keep her off it and had the same reaction to the bigger one - yay for foundation work!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 - sounds great TSD - and well done the little Miss Em. Yep - the foundation work is great - wish all clubs would adopt something like your club's program. And yes - I'm sure you're right about the dogs picking context. They're smarter than we think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Certainly smarter than I am Tassie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Does anyone here use blind crosses? What are your thoughts on them? Noticing more and more people using them over here, particularly after tunnels. Yes I do on occasion, but only while my dog is in a bent tunnel and can't see anyway If I've walked a course and I can't be 100% sure I'll make the front cross, then I'll walk the course using the BX. It's one decision I won't make on the run, just way too much potential for confusing my dog (and probably myself!) otherwise. I always make sure there is a good connection with my dog over that shoulder as they come out of the tunnel so to my dog it shouldn't look any different at all. I do try to stick with GD/SG's handling as much as possible but this is one rule I do bend, and I'm not seeing any fall out from doing so. I do cop some flack from agility friends over using them, something about using the "devils tools" Dog help me the day that either of my dogs do something on course that could be remotely caused by my BX tunnel habit - it's good motivation to get out and do more circle work so that never happens. Edited October 3, 2011 by Jess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Yes I do on occasion, but only while my dog is in a bent tunnel and can't see anyway If I've walked a course and I can't be 100% sure I'll make the front cross, then I'll walk the course using the BX. It's one decision I won't make on the run, just way too much potential for confusing my dog (and probably myself!) otherwise. I always make sure there is a good connection with my dog over that shoulder as they come out of the tunnel so to my dog it shouldn't look any different at all. That's basically how I was thinking of using it. "Devil's tools" Love it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I do cop some flack from agility friends over using them, something about using the "devils tools" That would be 'Satan's Tool' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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