kelpiechick Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I'm not sure you will see a difference in weaving style with particular methods - all methods can produce good results if applied correctly. Pointing and cheerleading can be applied to any method if someone chooses to do so and don't necessarily indicate a particular style. Some of the more advanced entries usually make me think 2x2 dog but not the actual footwork or style. Go to a trial and pick out 5 dogs you like weaving and odds on are they were all taught with different methods. I have video of 4 dogs weaving taught different ways but can't add it, sorry - on dial up out in the sticks so I don't do youtube. But both my kelpies were taught with channels and there is a world of difference in their style and footwork with the end result, so even though they were taught with the same method I don't think you'd pick it. Nice weaves Kaos btw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 For interest and education sake, can anyone show us videos demonstrating the visual difference of the end product between a fast 2x2 weaver and a fast weaver taught by another method? I know Kenzie is a good example of a fast weaver taught using 2x2. Would love a comparison Xena weaving - about 16 seconds in. About 26 seconds in. She was taught using 3 pole method and it took a long time to get it right. She now has reasonably independent weavers. They could be better, but it is unusual that I can't get into position. CK weaving About About 25 seconds About 20 seconds. He was taught initially using the same method as Xena and sucked badly for a variety of reasons. This is him weaving having been taught with 2x2's - and he is continuing to improve. Xena is def a better weaving dog, but she is just naturally more athletic. The improvement I have seen in CK is nothing short of amazing. I like the 2 x 2 method better for dogs that drive to their reward and have a learning history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSS Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) Thanks for all the replies guys! I went down the paddock tonight when it had cooled down a little and took my Isqueak with me - and honestly it was a different dog weaving to a few days ago Apparently the incentive went right up when the ball came out so I have been a bit of a bad trainer and clearly haven't been making sure I've been using the *best* rewards all the time. I think I got a bit slack because I have always trained the cavaliers with food, and Spice will work for ANY toy so I forget that some are better than others. Slap on the hand for me. I will now go back to building up the reinforcement on the weaves so that she will maintain that sort of speed and enthusiasm - I hope. I am happy with the 2x2 method in general- nobody who watched Spice weave (even the other day when I made my post) would have said she is slow - I just knew she could do BETTER which is what she showed me today. I trained Muffin (first cavalier) with the old luring in and out method and she is slow/steady but fairly reliable. I trained Oscar with guides and he is faster but a bit less reliable. It probably isn't a fair comparison because my cavaliers just aren't that interested in agility, they enjoy it but its not the best part of their day. Spice seems to live for agility so would probably have come out with good weavers regardless of which method I chose. I can't say yet whether I will use 2x2 again in the future, if Spice continues to work better for the Isqueak (or other toy I find) and I can transfer that speed in the trial ring then I will probably use 2x2 again but focus more on speed early on. Hindsight is a wonderful thing I suppose I will try to get a video of her weaving in the next few days and put it up. ETA: AgilityDogs CK looks so happy in the trial ring I look forward to seeing some more footage of his weaving as he keeps improving Edited January 27, 2011 by muffincav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) I'm not sure you will see a difference in weaving style with particular methods - all methods can produce good results if applied correctly. ...... But both my kelpies were taught with channels and there is a world of difference in their style and footwork with the end result, so even though they were taught with the same method I don't think you'd pick it. That probably proved my point then, that you probably can't pick the difference between weaving styles when taught right but I was interested to see how DeltaCharlie is able to pick between the 2x2 and not Not trying to be a smartass DC, genuinely interested and using the info to learn My dogs are far from reliable yet, but when Millie goes at it she really has her head down and body low and goes to the fastest of her ability. This isn't evident when we were only at 4 poles, but I can't say that I trained it 100% correctly But as more poles were added, the understanding to drive more through them was increased too. These are the first 2 dogs I have trained to weave and this is the only method I've tried, but so far I like it and I hope dog #3 I can do better once again. Edited January 27, 2011 by RubyStar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Look, I'm basing alot of mine on what I am seeing of people's dogs learning the 2x2 method. Even AD's CK to me is not driving through those poles, his head is upright and he appears to me to be too calculated about the whole thing. Yes he can weave and yes it is reliable, but it is not how I would want my dogs to weave. A dog that is driving through the weave poles will have their head down and forward and I'm not seeing that in most of these videos. That is not restricted to working breeds, that is any breed of dog. It also isn't restricted to weave poles either, a dog that runs a course with its head up is not running as fast as it can. To be running/weaving at maximum speed a dog will be throwing everything into it and leading with the head, not the chest. I can always tell instantly with Charlie when he doesn't want to be out there (anyone who knows him knows that he has a love/hate relationship with agility) because his head will come up when he runs and jumps, and will be upright in the weaves. That's when we find the quickest route home and get out of there There are a few ways to do it, I have always taught my dogs to weave on poles that are only 50cm high so they have no choice but to keep their heads down low or they cant see the poles. That muscle memory remains. Also, like Kelpiechick and a few others have said, it can work well IF you train it correctly. Using anything but their favourite toy/food is not going to achieve the best results. Accepting anything but head down striving through is not going to achieve the best results. Focussing too much on just getting the dog to do it is not going to achieve the best results. Walking alongside your dog while it weaves is not going to achieve the best results, you need to be pushing the dog. I could go on and on because as soon as you have a dog that weaves slowly, you are stuck with it unless you completely retrain the behaviour. I will compose a video of some of our dogs weaving (and their initial lessons) when I get a chance, might not be today though. I did try 2x2 with Charlie for a little bit but didn't like it and neither did he. I have used elements of it to work on weave entries with Delta though, although I still prefer weaving drills for that. Oh and to answer one of the questions from earlier, I have alot of friends over in the states and canada who trial at a very high level. Also, trainers who have come over to do seminars. These are people who have tried the 2x2 method and didn't like the results but have used it with those in their classes as it is a black and white method of teaching for new handlers and dogs. Anyone with aspirations to go further than club comps they advise to seek another method. They themselves don't have any methods that they are trying to get people using, they are just pointing them in the direction of other established methods (guides, channels, shaping etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 That is interesting DeltaCharlie as I think 2 x 2 is the most complicated way to teach weaves that I have seen It took me a few times watching the DVD to understand it, I have not tried to train a dog with 2x2 yet. I instruct at one of the clubs I train with and we had a meeting about which way to teach weaves. In the end, for classes, we decided on a mixture of slanted poles and a 2 pole entry method. Unless you really understand shaping (and most new people don't) the 2x2 method isn't going to be successful. My other club has guides for classes, but people are encouraged to use 2x2 on their own at home and I think has a set of 2x2 poles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Ah but we are talking about the states where they are so much further ahead than us, most instructors who come over for seminars put Australia about 10 years behind the rest of the world, WA is the best state as far as foundation work and training goes, they are pretty far ahead of the eastern states. It was great training over there for a few nights when we went over for the nats because they do everything so much better. Although we have been trying to tell that to clubs over here for years WA actually have the right idea, they don't skip over the foundation stuff and it really shows in their dogs. By the time people have gone through the foundation classes over in the USA they are well and truly proficient in shaping behaviours It makes 2x2 much easier to understand I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) I'm not sure you will see a difference in weaving style with particular methods - all methods can produce good results if applied correctly. Totally agree. I have seen some AWESOME weaves taught with 2X2 & some not so great too, but I can say that for all methods. My 2 were taught exactly the same way (3 poles) and have quite different weaving styles. I did a bit of 2X2 later with Shine & I have to say that I think she has better entries & independence than Trim although she is not quite as fast through them in competitions (even though she is at home ). A dog that is driving through the weave poles will have their head down and forward and I'm not seeing that in most of these videos. That is not restricted to working breeds, that is any breed of dog. Hmmm, not sure I agree with that Bec. I can think of a few spectacular weavers, running at warp speed who are very upright in body & weave with their heads high. Cathy's Snazzy would be one, can't find any recent video online of him weaving Another would be Rob's Wings: OMG check this out, very unorthodox style but WOW Edited January 27, 2011 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffy Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Totally agree. I have seen some AWESOME weaves taught with 2X2 & some not so great too, but I can say that for all methods. My 2 were taught exactly the same way (3 poles) and have quite different weaving styles. I did a bit of 2X2 later with Shine & I have to say that I think she has better entries & independence than Trim although she is not quite as fast through them in competitions (even though she is at home ).A dog that is driving through the weave poles will have their head down and forward and I'm not seeing that in most of these videos. That is not restricted to working breeds, that is any breed of dog. Hmmm, not sure I agree with that Bec. I can think of a few spectacular weavers, running at warp speed who are very upright in body & weave with their heads high. Cathy's Snazzy would be one, can't find any recent video online of him weaving Another would be Rob's Wings: OMG check this out, very unorthodox style but WOW Snazzy weaves with head up...I could never change that. I taught him and Alex using slanted poles based on Chris Parker's method. I re trained using the 2x2 method with Snazzy to improve his entries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Look, I'm basing alot of mine on what I am seeing of people's dogs learning the 2x2 method. Even AD's CK to me is not driving through those poles, his head is upright and he appears to me to be too calculated about the whole thing. Yes he can weave and yes it is reliable, but it is not how I would want my dogs to weave. Agree - he is not a finished product and it is more a product of the dog than it is of the method. What you see there is a world apart from what he was prior to starting with the 2 x 2's. It is not how I would want my dogs weaving either, but it is far closer than what I did have. I guess seeing the change is why I'm an advocate for 2 x 2's - if I am closer to the poles I get even less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Some great videos posted I will never use my videos as a promotion for 2x2 I'm not that great a trainer and my dogs will never be fast, but for me if they are just weaving then I am happy My next dog (whenever that is) I may look into other methods and combine with teaching the entry with 2x2. It's all just a learning experience for me! I appreciate hearing everyone's thoughts :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) I will try and take a video next week of Ness doing some weaving and post as a comparison to Kenz. Ness was trained using a variety of methods - luring (in/out), went back and did a little 2x2 work but not how 2x2 is done now - but more using 2 poles then adding another 2 then adding another 2. But obviously Ness is a different dog to Kenz and at the end of her agility career. She has always had reliable weavers but she isn't a super quick dog obviously. ETA. In the meantime this is one of Ness's rounds from last year I think I do tend to baby sit Ness's weavers a little more then I would Kenz's.This in contrast is Kenz's debut in JDO. Edited January 28, 2011 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 went back and did a little 2x2 work but not how 2x2 is done now - but more using 2 poles then adding another 2 then adding another 2. That sounds like how I taught Ruby. In class, we did 10 minutes of luring (didn't want to do it that way so stopped) but by then Ruby kind of understood the basic in/out action so I worked with her on 3 straight poles trying to get entries and then added another 1 straight (after finally watching the DVD :D), then another 2, then combined 6 + 6. So her approach was a mish-mash of 2x2/luring the initial/shaping the rest. I did 2x2 with Millie in line with the DVD (to the best of my novice ability) and the only difference I see between the 2 dogs now is Millie has her head down/body low when weaving (most of the time), but I think this just could be down to the dog. Neither dog are at that stage where they are reliable so I still class them both very much still in the learning stages, and I'm hoping with more work they become more reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Some good discussion.... and I'm quite happy to agree to disagree with some of it. :D I don't think there's a right or wrong way to teach weaves, providing you get the results you want in the end. There are some really good weaving dogs with heads upright but I reckon they are the exception rather than the rule. Also wonder sometimes whether it is breed specific or not for some dogs to want to carry themselves through a bit more upright, Rob's dog would be one that comes to mind there, whereas the head down thing seems to fit more with the BC crouch. For me, the 2x2 encouraged the head down that I wanted. Bec, would be interesting to know how the concept of the reward line was trained with the 2x2 dogs you have seen with more upright heads. Not doubting you for a minute as this seems to be a very misunderstood method for a lot of people, but would love to know. One thing I have seen a few people do that doesn't give good results is to keep adding 2 poles at a time once they get to 4 and leaving gaps between them to create 'stand alone' sets of 2 - does that make sense. ? I found once I had rhythm on 4, it was a quick process to get to 6, then 2 sets of 6, then to close up the gap quickly to get 12. I think a lot of people leave the gap there for way too long. Also, a lot of people confuse speed with drive. If you build the drive into the training process right from the start then the speed will come with understanding, but if the drive for the job is missing then you will never get the speed no matter how you train. Wish I'd understood that a few years ago - going back and undoing stuff to add more drive is a long process, and very frustrating at times - especially with a kelpie that knows way better than you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Also, a lot of people confuse speed with drive. If you build the drive into the training process right from the start then the speed will come with understanding, but if the drive for the job is missing then you will never get the speed no matter how you train. Totally agree with this! I have always found this to be the case with my dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Wings- I want to run that dog!!!! What a star. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) Wings- I want to run that dog!!!! What a star. ;) Same!!! What an awesome dog!! And such a good looking dog! Edited January 28, 2011 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Back from the trial, our first for the year, thought I'd bite the bullet and enter Kyzer in scary open classes. Man it is exhausting doing 4 runs in one night ;) Don't know how multiple dog people do it (guess I'll find out myself soon! ) I was really really pleased with him, in ADX (our first ADX run) he was doing great but popped the weavers (second last obstacle), there was a huge piece of ibis poo right next to the pole got the weavers on the 3rd attempt. JDO did really well also but failed the distance challenge, didn't help that I yelled out the wrong obstacle name ) ADO was another great one, his A frame contact was dodgy though ;) And he got the distance challenge brilliantly with a lot of speed! Then popped out of a tunnel because it was bending away from where I was running - understandable, something to work on. JDX was a shamozzle, I was buggered and thought I went the wrong way (but hadn't ;) ) and he wasn't feeling it after three runs in the hot muggy weather which was a big ask for him - he has little legs and limited stamina Here's his ADO run, so pleased with it, we couldn't even manage basic novice agility courses without shutting down last year, he had improved for the last two trials of the year and has obviously carried it through to this year. I actually really enjoyed the open runs, will definitely enter them more often! They're not that scary!! Very pleased with his improvement. I think I may need to build more value for jumps though - any suggestions? He will sometimes run past them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Good on you amypie! I love running Open and have been entering Zig in JDO since our 2nd trial. I use them for fun and building speed and confidence as I just assume they will be too hard to Q and thus I tend to relax a bit more. They are also great for me to learn to walk/remember courses. I'm often surprised how close we've come to getting a pass and how many distance challenges Zig nails. We only have one pass in JDO but it's a hoot. In terms of building value for jumps, try some different handling skills with just 2 or 3 jumps and reward from the correct hand - eg rear crosses, front crosses, tight wraps, serpentine, straight line run (throw food or toy) etc Gets them thinking and carefully watching your body language for the next cue - although this can backfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffy Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I think I may need to build more value for jumps though - any suggestions? He will sometimes run past them. Nice dogwalk Have you built value doing Linda M's one jump work??? Also remember to cue your jumps...it might be just something as simple as that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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