Agility Training Talk Thread

[Agility Dogs]

Some of our judges are massive sticklers for the rules, others will turn a blind eye - have seen a dog complete 4 to 5 weave poles as an off course obstacle and still win the ring with a pass.

This is the one thing I find really frustrating and have seen the same thing both with my dogs and with others. The rules are really black and white. The dog is either right or it is wrong.

Contacts I can understand a judge missing if the dog is really quick, but the other stuff leaves me scratching my head sometimes. eg: My dogs have either been given a refusal or not for bouncing off the table. Surely it is one way or the other - if we are getting passes when we shouldn't does that mean our titles have the value they should?

Sometimes I wonder if it is a 'beginners' thing where the lower classes are given an easier ride - again, that just means there are dogs in Excellent/Masters that probably shouldn't be there. I just don't get it.

[RubyStar]

Sometimes I wonder if it is a 'beginners' thing where the lower classes are given an easier ride - again, that just means there are dogs in Excellent/Masters that probably shouldn't be there. I just don't get it.

I should hope Novice dogs aren't being given an easy ride, cos in the long run, it does more harm than good. Like you say, all of a sudden you have these dogs in Excellent/Masters and they aren't prepared! (I don't think we'll ever be though, honestly!") Same goes with any sport really. There should be no easy rides to a pass. Put the work in and pass with pride, or don't!

[J...]

The inequality is frustrating, and the example I quoted above was an experienced trialler and it was a Masters course. Quiet country trial - would've been interesting to see what would've happened at a big trial where there is hot competition for Top Dog points.

Spread that inequality across states and it gets even more interesting - Vic is bloody tough on refusals is a good example.

That said, rules are rules and you tend to be pretty right if you stick with them. You don't have to be trialling long to figure out which judge will take a pass off your for leaving the ring without your dog on lead, who's slow on their feet for contacts and who will kick your arse for even thinking about redoing an obstacle in the ring

[Agility Dogs]

pass off your for leaving the ring without your dog on lead

This has got to be one of my bug bears. If you don't want the dog to leave the ring without a lead on don't put the last obstacle 3m from the exit to the ring and expect a quick dog to stop before the ring rope. (Got a warning one night.)

I agree with you that rules are rules and that if you get it right you don't have to worry about what the judge is doing - nice goal any way!

[J...]

Now that's harsh - Darcy's taken the ring ropes as her final obstacle more than once but we've never had anything said, except a laugh at her expense.

What I meant was handlers leaving the ring with their dog off-lead, or following the dog out instead of calling them back, or picking the dog up and not having their lead and collar on by the time they make it out of the ring.

[RubyStar]

or picking the dog up and not having their lead and collar on by the time they make it out of the ring.

Oh man, sometimes I'd love to be able to pick my dog up and exit a ring

[pie]

It's not the dog leaving the ring, it's the handler leaving the ring without their dog on lead, a lot of our dogs run out of the end of the ring, the handlers call them back to them and attach the lead and there are no problems that I've seen?

I have been known to carry my dog out of the ring, I do attach his lead though

[SSS]

Any tips for increasing speed in the weavers? Spice was trained 2x2 and I am thrilled with the results, excellent entries etc but she could be going faster. She isn't slow by any stretch, but is capable of more in the weaves. Maybe it will come with time?

[The Spotted Devil]

Any tips for increasing speed in the weavers? Spice was trained 2x2 and I am thrilled with the results, excellent entries etc but she could be going faster. She isn't slow by any stretch, but is capable of more in the weaves. Maybe it will come with time?

It does come with time - you need to build confidence too though. Don't get caught up in always stopping when they make a mistake as it can really slow them down. I only practice weaving poles when Zig is really fresh and hungry so he drives hard for the treat that I toss forward at the end. Train simple straight line sequences - try running hard with the dog (I really rev him up!) and also send him ahead to finish the jumps on his own to encourage independence. More experienced triallers will have more ideas.

[J...]

Any tips for increasing speed in the weavers? Spice was trained 2x2 and I am thrilled with the results, excellent entries etc but she could be going faster. She isn't slow by any stretch, but is capable of more in the weaves. Maybe it will come with time?

As TSD said, it does come with time and confidence. I use an absolute favourite toy, an i-squeak - I find squeaking it while the dog weaves an excellent distraction but also really revs them up. One or two reps and then finish - leave them absolutely hanging for more. Make it a heap of fun and just keep working on it.

SG suggested going back to 4 straight poles to "fix issues" so that could be an option as well if you feel she's not picking up her speed as much as you'd like.

[DeltaCharlie]

Any tips for increasing speed in the weavers? Spice was trained 2x2 and I am thrilled with the results, excellent entries etc but she could be going faster. She isn't slow by any stretch, but is capable of more in the weaves. Maybe it will come with time?

That's one of the criticisms that many top trainers have of the 2x2 methods and one reason why I wouldn't teach my dogs to weave that way. It is much harder to speed up a dog once it has been taught to do something slowly, yes confidence will add some speed but they never seem to reach the speed I would like to see in my dogs.

I much prefer to teach my dog to do everything at full speed right from the word go, weaving is a muscle memory exercise and I don't want my dogs muscle memory thinking it needs to go slower than maximum speed. All the dogs that I see doing 2x2 are so deliberate about it, like they are thinking about things at each step not just doing it coz their body remembers how. As Ronda Carter once said, "I don't want my dog counting 1,2...1,2...1,2... all the way through the weave poles, thats why we call it the Ants Go Marching method"

If it was my dog that was going slow, and I wanted to stick with the method I would be going right back to the very beginning and insisting on the dog doing it at maximum speed before you progress any further. Don't settle for second best, even in the first couple of steps.

[ness]

Not sure I agree DC. Kenz never did her 2x2s carefully and was always attacking her poles hard. I also wouldn't consider that she is slow through them now. I will say once we got to 12 I ended up offsetting them a little and having her drive through them hard (as SG recommends in her section on making there footwork consistent).

Edited January 27, 2011 by ness

[huski]

I am only just starting agility and only just starting the 2x2 method but I was advised early on not to progress unless my dog was going as fast as she can. I don't see how speed could be an issue if you are conscious of it early on?

[RubyStar]

Offsetting the 12 in the 2x2 method encourages speed as ness said. I wouldn't say the 2x2 causes a slow dog. If you're going to have a slow dog, you're going to have that regardless of the method I would have thought. Mine drive through the poles when they know a reward is on offer, I just have to work on transferring it so they still keep it up as part of a course. Millie who only just did her first set of 12 straight poles last week was roaring through them on Tuesday night, and she was taught with 2x2. Then again, I've never taught using another method so I have nothing to compare it to

[DeltaCharlie]

Not sure I agree DC. Kenz never did her 2x2s carefully and was always attacking her poles hard. I also wouldn't consider that she is slow through them now. I will say once we got to 12 I ended up offsetting them a little and having her drive through them hard (as SG recommends in her section on making there footwork consistent).

I am only just starting agility and only just starting the 2x2 method but I was advised early on not to progress unless my dog was going as fast as she can. I don't see how speed could be an issue if you are conscious of it early on?

You guys are spot on in your thinking. Ness, I'm assuming Kenzie was going as fast as she could through them by the sounds of things, which is why she has maintained that speed with 12 poles. I'm talking about the people who are progressing their dogs because they can do it right, without insisting on them doing it at full speed.

Yes, some dogs will be slower than others, that's just natural. BUT not getting the maximum out of each dog (regardless of how fast that maximum may be) is something that I don't understand.

Every method has its merits, this just isn't one that I like (I have bought the DVD etc and am well aware of what it entails). I think it is great for teaching entries, but I don't like the end product with most of the dogs I have seen. It seems to focus on precision before speed where I think that they should be taught at the same time.

[ness]

Yep speed was one of my criteria and it wasn't one I let up on. She was always tackling them at a million miles an hour. I didn't ever reward slow and careful but then she was never really slow and careful. A lot of the errors I had in the early stages were her blowing past the poles.

I also gave her a few sessions then put her away for a month or so (for a few reasons) and then bringing her back out and starting from scratch again.

She had the basic understanding and the month off seemed to bring more speed when we recommenced.

Can't say the same about my contacts - Urgh she isn't slow she is just slower then I want .

Edited January 27, 2011 by ness

[Staff'n'Toller]

Can't say the same about my contacts - Urgh she isn't slow she is just slower then I want .

Have you watched that dvd yet??

[kelpiechick]

Every method has its merits, this just isn't one that I like (I have bought the DVD etc and am well aware of what it entails). I think it is great for teaching entries, but I don't like the end product with most of the dogs I have seen. It seems to focus on precision before speed where I think that they should be taught at the same time.

Ruby Star you are spot on with your thinking that if a dog is going to be slow then they will most likely be slow no matter the method.

(Sorry I had you quoted as well but managed to chop it out and am too lazy to do it again)

2X2's do not focus on precision ahead of speed - except for the actual entries. In fact they encourage head down weaving and driving down the reinforcement line which are both conducive to developing speed when trained correctly.

The reason why speed at the entry is not always apparent is that the method teaches bend and collect after making the more difficult entries, something that other methods don't do. One thing I really like about this is that it seems to teach dogs they can enter slowly where necessary then pick up their speed when driving down the reinforcement line. This is a whole other skill in itself as a lot of green dogs will continue weaving down a line of poles at the same speed they enter without realising they can actually speed up once in them. Channels and wam's are great for teaching speed/footwork but don't help with the bend and collect thing. My masters kelpie was trained on channels and can probably make all the entries that my 2x2 dog can make because we trained them, but sometimes when hitting a difficult entry at speed will have a lot of trouble actually bending around the 2nd pole. No such problem with the baby.

I have taught 5 dogs to weave now, 2 with the old 'weave pole waltz' method, 2 with channels and my young girl with 2x2's - I am happy with all their weaves and I think that you can use any method if you apply it correctly - but there is absolutely no comparison with the one taught with 2x2 - in speed, enthusiasm and accuracy. Quite possibly this may be just this particular dog and not the method, but for me the results speak for themselves with this dog, and yes, I was a little sceptical when I first watched the DVD in all honesty.

Remember also that there are a lot of people out there applying the method incorrectly which doesn't help.

You mentioned that there were quite a few criticisms of this method - who makes these criticisms? Those who have actually trained the method ? Those trying to market another method ? Anti Susan Garrett factions ? Those who have watched a DVD so now think they understand the method without every trying to apply it ? All of the above ? Just curious.

[RubyStar]

Every method has its merits, this just isn't one that I like (I have bought the DVD etc and am well aware of what it entails). I think it is great for teaching entries, but I don't like the end product with most of the dogs I have seen. It seems to focus on precision before speed where I think that they should be taught at the same time.

It teaches them to find the entry, collect themselves to enter it correctly, and then drive through them with speed.

The only way I can tell the difference between a 2x2 taught dog and not one, is those who didn't manage to teach their dog to be independent weavers with their other method (ie. they wave their hand in and out of the weaves or continually encourage them all the way through. I am not saying everyone does that, I know there are plenty of independent weavers that didn't use 2x2, I'm just saying that I definitely know 2x2 wasn't used if they are doing that hand waving thing!)

If someone presented me with examples of end results taught using different methods, I couldn't tell the difference For interest and education sake, can anyone show us videos demonstrating the visual difference of the end product between a fast 2x2 weaver and a fast weaver taught by another method? :D I know Kenzie is a good example of a fast weaver taught using 2x2. Would love a comparison

[Kavik]

This is Kaos, taken quite a while ago now, on 12 stick in the ground poles. I don't have footage with him on my solid base poles (should get some!) - he is now just as fast with his solid base poles. We used a combination of channel, slanted poles and 3 pole entry.