Collar Fear

[Guest]

I have had my boy for near 6 months now (we rescued him from Death Row at the local Pound) and h with alot of work using NILIF and Targeting and clicker training, he is becoming a fantastic dog. He's just recently turn 2 and though still has his puppy moments is becoming loyal and reliable.

I just have one problem; though we got him from the pound, he had not been mistreated as much as neglected. His idea of playtime was biting anything that came near his mouth and then chasing and biting anything that moved on the floor or in the air. Previous owners had obvious thought that by smacking a dog around the face to get a reaction is a good idea of fun, consequently I have spent the last six months teaching him that teeth are not for biting people.

Again, back to my problem, he hates being pulled or grabbed by the collar I walk him in a harness when out). Once, when we'd not had him very long, he has defecated in the house, I went to grab him by the collar only to have him turn on me and give me a nasty nip. I have never done that again, knowing his reaction, I always make sure to keep a short leash on his in the house, so it's easy to lead him where I want him. Please don't think that I drag him around by the collar, I am following advice from a trainer on how to negate his bullying of my mum LOL. I try my hardest not to put him in that situation again or make him feel backed into a corner. I am training him using nothing but positive reinforcements, because a reprimand would do more harm than help.

Recently, he didn't have a leash on and I grabbed his collar when someone knocked on the door, only to have him turn and snap at me, no bite but a growl.

Can you please advise me as to what sort of training method I can use to try and abate this behaviour. I have spoke with an dog trainer, but she didn't feel I needed a one on one, but I may need to speak with her again and reinforce my problem.

It sounds quite serious, which I suppose it could turn into without addressing, in other areas he has exceeded all my expectations . He loves to learn and learns very quickly. He is loving and affectionate. He allows me to take food from his mouth, be it his meal or a juicy marrow bone. His over exuberance in playing when we first got him has diminished considerably, in fact due to these few incidents he is nearly the perfect dog.

Any advice will be welcome and appreciated.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Guest

[ChristineX]

Hi Micky Moo.

When you say trainer - dog trainer or animal behaviouralist ?(often called in my house 'dog shrink). The shrink type may be of more value, in this case as it sounds like a head issue rather than a training issue.

Having a second hand dog myself, when they come with problems it is not easy. Duke used to go into extreme hysterics every time he went outside the house - after 2 years with the dog shrink, we can go for walks, but he is still happier if we dont. And every so often, a new dog in the Reactive Rover group the dog shrink runs is considered to be a monster - not the bullmastiff cross great dane, of course, but the fine built medium sized red and white! Go figure.

We see Kathy Kopellis - if you would like her contact details, just let me know.

ChristineX

[K9Nev]

Hi Micky Moo.

When you say trainer - dog trainer or animal behaviouralist ?(often called in my house 'dog shrink). The shrink type may be of more value, in this case as it sounds like a head issue rather than a training issue.

Having a second hand dog myself, when they come with problems it is not easy. Duke used to go into extreme hysterics every time he went outside the house - after 2 years with the dog shrink, we can go for walks, but he is still happier if we dont. And every so often, a new dog in the Reactive Rover group the dog shrink runs is considered to be a monster - not the bullmastiff cross great dane, of course, but the fine built medium sized red and white! Go figure.

We see Kathy Kopellis - if you would like her contact details, just let me know.

ChristineX

I would agree with ChristineX on this one too and hire a behaviourist to assess the dog. There are several ways to address handler aggression or reactive snapping as such but difficult to offer forum advice how best to manage it without seeing how and when the dog reacts. It's a behaviour that needs to be addressed with a professional person sooner rather than later IMHO.

Cheers

Nev

[Jigsaw]

I would advise seeing a professional to help you out. On the rare occasion there possibly is (or has been in the past) an underlying medical issue that causes a dog to be sensitive to where your hands are going and care is needed not to further sensitise the dog to collar grabs.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

so does the basic clicker training for working step by step to a comfortable handling of the collar work?

eg step one click - treat

lots

step 2

pat face, click treat

repeat lots

step 3

pat face and neck - brushing by or near collar

click treat lots. Probably safest to start with chin-neck-collar brush-chestpat

not brush at back of neck, because dogs more reactive to that, and more comfortable with chest pat usually

repeat lots

step 4

pat face neck put finger in collar pat chest treat

repeat lots

step 5

pat face, neck put finger in collar and scratch under collar gently, pat chest, treat....

etc

until you have built up to the kind of collar grab you want to do safely.

Would take many tiny steps and lots of fave treats / games.

you probably want to be able to take collar off and put back on too, so build up to that also

alternately - use a second collar

eg when my dog has no collar on in the house and the door bell goes, I keep a lead with a nylon slip collar - the sort that loops through the loop, and I put that on, tell her to sit etc.

I sometimes give a treat for her to put her head through the loop. You can also get leads, with a ring at one end - to make the loop - lead all in one. And the collar is a flat webbing. It's still a choke collar so it would pay not to apply continous pressure with it.

Or you are going to have to have a harness by the front door.

I did a lot of very small steps to get my dog to lie upside down in my lap and let me clip her claws. And then I decided I didn't like the clipper. I'm going to have to start again if / when I get the dremmel. step one - sniff dremmel that is off - click, step two, let me touch claw with dremmel that is off...

[helen]

Good suggestions, and you can clicker train a dog to tolerate what it doesn't like. My dogs don't like having their legs brushed and I have to hold their legs, but one day did a little experiment, brought out the clicker and had them standing rock solid while I brushed their legs in a very short session.

[persephone]

I have spoke with an dog trainer, but she didn't feel I needed a one on one,

I think this trainer is not aware that dogs biting people is a SERIOUS problem- and one which needs to be addressed in a serious manner !!

A rescue dog (any dog) 'bullying' , growling ,biting needs professional help.YOU need professional help in understanding/managing it.

Advice given here is not good enough- we cannot see the dog's body language, or how he interacts with your family , and without this personal observation, an accurate assessment cannot be made.

Hoping a trusted professional can help you and your family

[poodlefan]

I'd be having a veterinary/chiropractic check and then consulting a behaviourist.

Best to eliminate pain as a source of the problem but if the dog has been grabbed to be disciplined or booted out of the house, there's a lot of work to be done overcoming his perception that he needs to defend himself.

[Tassie]

Vet/chiro check is a good idea. But I'd certainly be trying what Mrs Rusty Bucket suggested, to de-sensitize him to hands near then on his collar.

My previous BC boy was a pretty reactive dog to hands restraining him (no history - had him from a wee pup - that's just the way he was.) I learned to play the 'gotcha' aka 'collar grab' game with him - much along the lines suggested - gradual shaping to get him to allow more and more constact around the face/neck area. With my boy, it progressed quite quickly because he was used to some shaping and clicker training - and he turned from a squirming, snapping, crocoldile-rolling monster when you tried to hold him by his collar, to a dog who on the cue "Wanna play gotcha" would race up and thrust his face/neck/collar into my hands so I could play a sort of tuggy with his collar - he loved it.

If you're happy with the results of the training you've already done with this dog - and it sounds like you're doing great - then it would be worth giving this a go. With the warning that in the meantime, you will need to manage him so that no-one else tries to grab his collar.

[skip]

Good advice already given. Just wanted to say that my rescue dog was very worried by being held by the collar. He is timid and thou he wouldn't bite he would mouth and body roll.

I didn't really notice at first as I didn't handle him by the neck much. The problem came up first at flyball training when somebody else had to hold your dog. Lucky I had some calm friends (with treats in hand) who helped me. And at agility he was suposed to be placed on a dog walk when back chaining the contact behaviour.. Bit hard as he thought being picked up was a punishment.

I did the collar grab and reward but I must admit, I should be doing it still every now and again.

Good luck with it. Would be interested in what the chiro or behaviourist says?

Edited July 5, 2010 by skip

[corvus]

Here's a video from Sophia Yin about counter-conditioning as described by Mrs Rusty Bucket.

When Erik was 4 months old and getting vaccinations the vet tried to look at his teeth and he got all growly and "you will NOT touch my mouth!" The vet got some chicken out and quickly had him allowing her to look for a piece of chicken. At that point we had done a lot of practise looking at his mouth already, but only when he was relaxed. We'd never tried it when he was aroused.

We worked on it a lot and put teeth checking on cue and had him allowing it for his dinner. He still hates it, but will let you prod around in there quite passively. It's super useful. A little while ago he got a dried treat stuck in the roof of his mouth and he didn't fight at all when I opened his mouth and put my fingers right in to yank the treat out. Last time at the vets we had the vet check his teeth and reward him with liver treats and he was fine with it. On the weekend a strange man suddenly grabbed his muzzle and lifted his foot. Somewhat miraculously, Erik did nothing. Just looked uncomfortable. It's amazing what counter-conditioning can do.

I think Kikopup on YouTube has a video on teaching a dog the "grab the collar" game.

[Clyde]

On the weekend a strange man suddenly grabbed his muzzle and lifted his foot. e.

OMG! Why?? How weird, and RUDE!

[4Kelpies]

Good for you Missy Moo for rescuing this dog and giving him a far better life than he has known. He sounds like a lovely dog and the fact that he only snapped and growled last time shows that he is learning to trust you. He could have bitten as he did the first time but he chose to warn you instead. You've been given excellent advice here. I really like the way Mrs Rusty Bucket has set it out in steps. It's hard to know if the problem is caused by fear or pain. It may be something simple that the chiropractor can adjust but he will probably still be fearful for a while if he has been expecting it to hurt every time his collar is touched. Good luck with him.

[sas]

Your dog is already clicker trained so you can use that in this situation:

http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup#p/c/F0.../22/6jaxuTuH2ow

[shortstep]

All I will say is grabbing the collar was one of the tests we used to screen for dogs that bite. So was pulling some hair on the flank, pulling the tail and another things a kid might do to the dog.

One good thing is that this dog is a good human trainer and you learned quickly not to cross him and touch his collar.

Now the problem will be to convince you, that you have a big problem, a dog that is in control of you and that this dog will go from a nip to a full on bite when you cross his line again.

Dogs do what works and a nip has worked on you so far, take it up a notch are refuse to obey him, really grab his collar and not let go and he will really bite you.

Dogs that bit in this mannor are created not born.

Get real help and get it now.

Best of luck.

Edited July 6, 2010 by shortstep

[corvus]

On the weekend a strange man suddenly grabbed his muzzle and lifted his foot. e.

OMG! Why?? How weird, and RUDE!

I was so flabbergasted I just stared at him. He was admiring Erik and asking me lots of questions. I do not know what he was thinking, and I should have said something, but I was too busy being alarmed and trying to give Erik an escape route. I was so proud of E for the passive way he handled that! I am so glad every kid in the store asked before they patted. Hopefully this means a new generation of people that don't do outrageous things like grabbing a strange dog's muzzle.

Shortstep, that is why counter-conditioning and desensitisation are so great. You can address the underlying cause of the aggression while keeping safe.

[Guest]

Please let me explain; Micky has no fear of the collar (mis-representation on my part), he does not have any problem with being handled by the collar, having the collar put on or taken off or has any sensitive areas around the neck. The one time he did nip me as I said, we had not had him very long, he'd done something wrong and I was angry (which he could sense) and I had backed him into a corner (literally) and grabbed him to pull him out of the room, he's reaction was out of fear, I should've known better that to corner a dog that I hardly know as well as to come at a dog showing anger, it was MY fault. I'm not trying to make excuses for him, I just want to be clear as to his behaviour. The second time was not even a snap, he was barking at someone knocking at the door and in a rush I grabbed his collar from behind and he turned quickly and growled, but when he saw it was me, his body language changed completely, he relaxed and became compliant. Fortunately we have no children in the family and all family members, friends and neighbours know how to handle him. At present, because I'm the one training him, it is mostly left to me to control him when we have people around. He just is so pleased to see people he gets overexcited, but with patience, persistence and lots of positive praise, he is learning to be much calmer with people arounfd. One of his biggest problems when I first got him was "mouthing", he constantly liked to mouth fingers, but now he very rarely does it and when he does I remove either him or myself from the room and it's working, it's taking time, but he's had 12 months or more being allowed to get away with it, so I suppose I should expect time to stop it. I've made sure he has plenty of chew toys to chew rather that fingers, in actual fact when we first got him, he was chewing things like he was still teething.

I've also made sure that he has plenty of toys that he has to work out as he is very intelligent and gets bored if not stimulated. I also walk him for an hour twice a day, so he get's plenty of excrcise.

I have also had him professionally groomed 3 times (he needs clipping regularly) with no incident, as long as I'm with him and he'd never been groomed before. So as you can see he's not the vicious, maneater I made him out to be in my first post.

I will also explain the "Bullying" comment. He doen't bully mum in the sense that he wants to dominate her. He's actually instigating "play", because I'm the one who does all the training, feeding and discipline, he sees mum as a litter mate and when he wants to play, he tries to get mum to play. This behaviour also has subsided and is almost non-existent, but occassionally he will try it on and he has to be sent out of the room (only for a minute or so) when he comes back in, he is a well behaved dog.

I have visited Kathysdogtraing.com.au (behaviouralist) and basically told her what I've told you and am waiting for her response, either way I'll do what is best for Micky.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Guest

[Tassie]

Micky Moo - it sounds like you've done, and are doing, a great job with this boy. Congratulations. He's a lucky boy. I must say, that was pretty much how I read your post. So I must say I was a little surprised by some of the responses you received.

I get people in my puppy class to play the gotcha/collar grab game just for fun, and also to make the dog value hands coming for the collar - so that for instance, the dog is happier to have the lead put on in all circumstances - they are also taught to put the lead on, treat and take it off again and release the dog to play - rinse and repeat. I do the same things with my own dogs, even though neither of them have ever had a problem.

LOL at the 'bullying' to get your mum to play - my agility girl does the same thing - if I'm talking to someone for instnace, she'll start throwing behaviours at me to 'bully' me into interacting with her - and yaffling at me. :rolleyes:

[Guest]

Micky Moo - it sounds like you've done, and are doing, a great job with this boy. Congratulations. He's a lucky boy. I must say, that was pretty much how I read your post. So I must say I was a little surprised by some of the responses you received.

I get people in my puppy class to play the gotcha/collar grab game just for fun, and also to make the dog value hands coming for the collar - so that for instance, the dog is happier to have the lead put on in all circumstances - they are also taught to put the lead on, treat and take it off again and release the dog to play - rinse and repeat. I do the same things with my own dogs, even though neither of them have ever had a problem.

LOL at the 'bullying' to get your mum to play - my agility girl does the same thing - if I'm talking to someone for instnace, she'll start throwing behaviours at me to 'bully' me into interacting with her - and yaffling at me.

Thanks Barb,

I really felt like I had put him across as a maneater by the some of the responses I received. I just wanted some reassurance that I was actually doing the right thing to dissipate the unwanted behaviour (mouthing). I am an impatient person, but am now starting to see the payoff for the work that I have been doing with him for the past six months. If he continues at this rate I should have a well mannered, polite and well behaved dog in 12 months. He's the first rescue dog I have ever gotten and he has been a wonderful, good fun addition to the family .