Retraining Out Of Sight Stays

[K9Nev]

Hmm, thanks Rubystar but it's okay - no need to feel sorry for me I've found some of this discussion very interesting.

Nev - I know not all of your points were aimed at my original post, but I do have a dog that you may consider to have a 'poor nerve platform' and I do trial with her, so I want to respond.

First, she loves trialling. It's not just me - she really thrives on it. Actually it's me who gets slack sometimes (like recently) and it's her antsy behaviour at home when not kept mentally stimulated that gets me back out there. I had a number of people come up to me after her individual exercises the other weekend to congratulate me on how happy she is when working in the ring. And it's true - it's a game to her and she has a ball doing it.

The problem for us is the stays, and this does get back to her life-long separation anxiety issues. I think you make a fair point in this regard. If the out of sight stays remain a very distressing thing for her, in spite of my efforts to make her more comfortable, then I will stop trialling at that level - plain and simple.

After all, there's always veterans/vintage class for which (at 12 years old) she is more than eligible. And in that class the stays are always in sight (I think).

But it's too early to make that call just yet I think, because deep down I know I haven't given her a solid enough foundation yet for the out of sight stays, so I need to go back and build that up. She has surprised me many times during her life so you never know.

If I had taken the view with her that she had a poor nerve platform and was therefore faulty in some way, we would both have missed out on some wonderful experiences. But having said that I have another little dog at home who just didn't enjoy this kind of training and would not have liked trialling - so he is a happy little couch dog and enjoying a quiet old age.

So you're right there is a line. But some anxiety in the ring is not, in itself, evidence that the dog should not be trialling. It's more complicated than that.

Hi Zug Zug,

It was more other respondants that mentioned anxiety/aversive measures that prompted my input. Some have the opinion that a dog showing signs of stress in any way determines that the dog must not be subject to any aversive training measures which I strongly disagree. A dog that will completely shut down to a mild aversive which I am sure would not be the case with yours at all, has IMHO a serious nerve issue that will effect it's training potential across the board.

Sometimes an aversive in a nervy dog paints a clearer picture for the dog to understand what it can an cannot do and has the potential to reduce the dog's stress levels overall when it understands what's required of it. The dog in the out of sight stays breaks the stay to reduce it's stress, where adding a little more stress on the break as an E collar stimulation the dog is looking to reduce stress, not add to it, so when breaking the stay results in an aversive, it's less stressful for the dog to stay put and wait for the handlers release command as the reward.

We used to back tie the dog on a long leash years ago and try to gauge how much slack to have in the leash to provide an appropriate level of correction should the dog break and take off when training the out of sight stay which if done incorrectly could be a fairly radical correction as we could all imagine. Did it condition the out of sight stay???, oh yes, the dog was too scared to break knowing what came next, but they would sit or lay there quite happily once they understood how it all works. The E Collar was a work of art in comparison having the ability to dial in enough aversive to suit the needs of the individual dog's thresh hold, plus the ability to recall the dog to proof two commands in the one exercise which was truly magnificent and completely humane compared with the old method.

Out of sight stay's is a difficult exercise to train especially with only positive reinforcement if the dog has separation issues to add in the mix, but from what you have explained to us, I believe that your situation is the perfect situation where the E Collar works wonderfully well to condition the behaviour that you require. I have been fortunate to witness on a few occassions now, some terrible behaviour in the out of sight stay that has been worked on unreliably for months and competely transformed with the E Collar within a couple of hours like a magic wand was my reference

Cheers

Nev

Edited July 10, 2010 by K9Nev

[Aidan3]

The dog in the out of sight stays breaks the stay to reduce it's stress, where adding a little more stress on the break as an E collar stimulation the dog is looking to reduce stress, not add to it, so when breaking the stay results in an aversive, it's less stressful for the dog to stay put and wait for the handlers release command as the reward.

Aversion certainly can be used strategically to minimise stress. In order to avoid an aversive stimulus the dog learns to do something specific. Knowing how to avoid the punisher leads to a reduction in stress, so long as everything goes to plan and the dog learns to avoid the punisher very quickly. Whether or not this addresses the anxiety felt from being left alone remains in question. Simply seeing compliance is no indication that this anxiety has been alleviated. That's not to say that it won't, but how do you know?

Another approach is to use "owner being out of sight" as the aversive stimulus in an escape procedure. In this case the owner returns only when the dog is staying in position. The dog learns that the way to bring the owner back is to stay sitting, then the duration can be built up. In order to do this you use a tether so that if the dog breaks from position he can't go anywhere and the owner can just stay out of sight until the dog is sitting again, at which point you reduce the duration and explain how it works again. This article explains the procedure in detail: http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1556

[K9Nev]

The dog in the out of sight stays breaks the stay to reduce it's stress, where adding a little more stress on the break as an E collar stimulation the dog is looking to reduce stress, not add to it, so when breaking the stay results in an aversive, it's less stressful for the dog to stay put and wait for the handlers release command as the reward.

Aversion certainly can be used strategically to minimise stress. In order to avoid an aversive stimulus the dog learns to do something specific. Knowing how to avoid the punisher leads to a reduction in stress, so long as everything goes to plan and the dog learns to avoid the punisher very quickly. Whether or not this addresses the anxiety felt from being left alone remains in question. Simply seeing compliance is no indication that this anxiety has been alleviated. That's not to say that it won't, but how do you know?

Another approach is to use "owner being out of sight" as the aversive stimulus in an escape procedure. In this case the owner returns only when the dog is staying in position. The dog learns that the way to bring the owner back is to stay sitting, then the duration can be built up. In order to do this you use a tether so that if the dog breaks from position he can't go anywhere and the owner can just stay out of sight until the dog is sitting again, at which point you reduce the duration and explain how it works again. This article explains the procedure in detail: http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1556

Haven't you found in that method Aidan if the dog is stressed with separation anxiety and tethered, it usually runs to the end of the leash and carries on like a pork chop the moment you walk away??? The dog will sit nicely until you are a dozen steps away, breaks the sit and barks, cries and jumps around at the end of the leash and won't re-sit as the stress levels send the dog out of control???.

Another method I have had some success with is conditioning the dog to sit whilst the handler continues a pronounced walk on the spot along side the dog. Then take a step forward and release the dog and reward........take two steps forward......three steps etc until you can sit the dog and walk away 100 metres before release and reward, then work towards walking out of sight once the insight sit is proofed???.

Cheers

Nev.

[Aidan]

Haven't you found in that method Aidan if the dog is stressed with separation anxiety and tethered, it usually runs to the end of the leash and carries on like a pork chop the moment you walk away???

Yes, but the trick is to make it very clear that the contingency for coming back is to sit on the spot and not move. The only fair way to do this is to start off very small, one step at a time as you have described. I use the "300 Peck" method in the article so that there is no guesswork involved. The first break will be a little one, not a highly emotionally charged event, and you can even cue "sit" the first few times (although I wouldn't keep cueing it, you won't be there to cue it when you are out of sight).

[Erny]

Another method I have had some success with is conditioning the dog to sit whilst the handler continues a pronounced walk on the spot along side the dog. Then take a step forward and release the dog and reward........take two steps forward......three steps etc until you can sit the dog and walk away 100 metres before release and reward, then work towards walking out of sight once the insight sit is proofed???.

Cheers

Nev.

This is a method I often use and generally with a good deal of success and in a relatively short period of time, at least to 'short' out-of-sight durations, from there, building up of course and adding back in the distractions that I've already proofed the dog to for the 'in-sight' stays. Lots of feed-back in he early stages of training and frequent rewards helps to increase the dog's learning curve and understanding of what is required helps immensely, weaning out to less frequent feed-back and rewards.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Erny