Retraining Out Of Sight Stays

[Tiggy]

Talking about nervous dogs (sorry this is getting off topic Zug Zug ) my Sophie is a nervous dog but not when we train and we've done a practice trial and she loved it. I get so much enjoyment training her because she's this different confident dog when we train but away from training she does have a nervous type personality.

[ness]

My nervous girl enjoying every single minute in the ring:

First up agility -

Sydney DWD Comp -

I will also point out that she managed to qualify in three out of her four routines whereas my seasoned rock solid dog with multiple titles including currently trialling in utility obedience managed one pass out of four . I actually expected it to come out the other way.

[Ptolomy]

Talking about nervous dogs (sorry this is getting off topic Zug Zug ) my Sophie is a nervous dog but not when we train and we've done a practice trial and she loved it. I get so much enjoyment training her because she's this different confident dog when we train but away from training she does have a nervous type personality.

I have just retired one of my kids from obedience because she would shut down in the ring. Meeting 2 of her sibblings and seeing that they were a replica of her made me realise that nothing I did was ever going to change this aspect of her. Now she just comes training and conitnues to learn new things and loves every minute of it.

[RubyStar]

Talking about nervous dogs (sorry this is getting off topic Zug Zug ) my Sophie is a nervous dog but not when we train and we've done a practice trial and she loved it. I get so much enjoyment training her because she's this different confident dog when we train but away from training she does have a nervous type personality.

I have just retired one of my kids from obedience because she would shut down in the ring. Meeting 2 of her sibblings and seeing that they were a replica of her made me realise that nothing I did was ever going to change this aspect of her. Now she just comes training and conitnues to learn new things and loves every minute of it.

Which kid???

[leopuppy04]

Talking about nervous dogs (sorry this is getting off topic Zug Zug ) my Sophie is a nervous dog but not when we train and we've done a practice trial and she loved it. I get so much enjoyment training her because she's this different confident dog when we train but away from training she does have a nervous type personality.

I have just retired one of my kids from obedience because she would shut down in the ring. Meeting 2 of her sibblings and seeing that they were a replica of her made me realise that nothing I did was ever going to change this aspect of her. Now she just comes training and conitnues to learn new things and loves every minute of it.

Such a shame Ptolomy as i'm sure she (not sure which one!) had oodles of potential.

But sometimes it's better for the dog just to enjoy training

[Kavik]

The one mock trial I did with Diesel he did not enjoy and lagged heaps. But I was also really nervous, which I'm sure didn't help.

I am worried that if I enter him in an obedience trial, I will step off for the heeling pattern and he won't move so I have never worked up the courage to enter him

[ness]

Kavik - yes nerves help foster nerves. I am going through this in preperation for Kenz's second agility trial on the weekend. Telling myself I have to be confident in her and not worry about what if she meltdowns and handle that if it should happen. It most likely won't but its hard to totally wipe that from your mind when you have a nervy dog.

We are lucky that we have regular ring practice at club so when Kenz is back ready for ring work we have plenty of opportunity to work through that .

[Kavik]

I think because in obedience you are judged as much on what you do (signals etc) as on what the dog does that I am much more nervous about entering obedience than agility. I have had Kaos run out of the ring in agility (did it on the weekend to visit kids sitting ringside in JD ) but that doesn't worry me as much as the prospect of entering Diesel in obedience and have him not walk off with me in the heel exercise.

[ness]

Kavik - my biggest thing for getting over obedience nerves seems to be trialling a dog in UD. I don't know now we seem to go into the ring with a wonder what will break and need repairing next mentality . Ah well so long as the dog still enjoys it thats the main thing. Also I guess trialling an older dog (she is 10 in a few months) I also go in with a bit of a sense of who knows what the next week will hold we might as well enjoy each and every trial we have left . Edited July 8, 2010 by ness

[K9Nev]

K9Nev wrote: It amazes me how people can put an anxious dog through the stress of trialling where quite clearly it has an insufficient nerve platform to do the job. Anxious dogs IMHO are better off curled up on the lounge enjoyed as pet, not being exposed to the stress of competition when genetically compromised.

I have an anxious dog with a less then desirable nerve platform who some suggested to me was best written off from a performance perspective as a 16 week old baby - not a great thing to hear when you have purchased her with the intention of trialling in the future. She is now just over 2 and has one ANKC DWD title under her belt (obtained interstate to boot and with placings including a win achieved at 20 months of age). She has been entered in one agility trial and while didn't qualify it certainly wasn't due to her "nerves" more to do with the fact my first dog is a little slower so my handling wasn't quite up to scratch. Do you suggest that she is better off curled up on the lounge? She is also pretty high drive.

We also started the K9Pro Training in Drive package a little over 9 weeks ago and all I can say is its like I have a new dog. There is absolutely no reason why she won't get in the ring eventually from what I have seen of her now. Sure she will have her good days when things are running to perfection and some days something seemingly minor might totally upset that and she comes off a little worse for wear but thats ANKC trialling for you. They aren't robots. Even dogs with ideal genetics will still have bad days.

Ness, I admire what you have achieved as a handler/trainer, you have done a great job, providing the focus remains on your achievements and not that of the dog where there is a major difference in that regard. Dog's of less than desirable genetics are often reproduced from training that masks the dog's natural ability which is not necessarily a good thing IMHO to maintain desirable traits in future breedings. As training concepts improve, we take more and more genetically impaired dogs into competition and achieve the titles that provide a sound breeding foundation to produce more of the same genetic imbalances which results in the future breeding of only average performance dogs is what I am referring to.

Cheers

Nev

[K9Nev]

My nervous girl enjoying every single minute in the ring:

First up agility -

Sydney DWD Comp -

I will also point out that she managed to qualify in three out of her four routines whereas my seasoned rock solid dog with multiple titles including currently trialling in utility obedience managed one pass out of four . I actually expected it to come out the other way.

From what you have achieved Ness.............do you think your dog should be bred???

Cheers

Nev

[ness]

Nope they live happily as desexed pets and I would never get involved with the breeding side of things. The vast majority of the dogs competing in any one given weekend in obedience and agility around here would be desexed and therefore not available to add to the gene pool. Most performance people compete in sports for the sake of having a bit of fun with their dog not as a measure of their potential breedability - at least the circles I run in.

Its a hobby and a passion and something fun to do on the weekend .

Edited July 8, 2010 by ness

[Kavik]

Are you sure you're in the right thread Nev? This is not a discussion about qualities needed for breeding (there is another thread on that elsewhere ).

This is about working with the dog you have.

And mine are also desexed Though I have had people ask to use them

[Tiggy]

Nope they live happily as desexed pets and I would never get involved with the breeding side of things. The vast majority of the dogs competing in any one given weekend in obedience and agility around here would be desexed and therefore not available to add to the gene pool. Most performance people compete in sports for the sake of having a bit of fun with their dog not as a measure of their potential breedability - at least the circles I run in.

Its a hobby and a passion and something fun to do on the weekend .

[RubyStar]

Poor Zug Zug, all she wanted was some help with her out of sight stays

[Tiggy]

Poor Zug Zug, all she wanted was some help with her out of sight stays

[Staranais]

My last dog was not a candidate for breeding either (unregistered with huge health issues & temperament issues too) but I still enjoyed working him & trialling him, & learnt a lot from doing so. In some ways, I think there is a bigger achievement & a bigger sense of pride in getting a title or a win with a dog that started out with huge issues, rather than a dog that you get as a blank slate.

And hey, if people like myself & my old dog didn't compete, there would be fewer people for all you good teams to beat!

Some people probably do use titles as a justification for breeding an unsuitable dog, but I haven't personally seen this happen in agility or obedience. I think people who do these sports know they're only sports, and although just about any good dog should be able to get at least lower level kennel club title, most people know that the title doesn't make a dog automatically suitable for breeding.

[K9Nev]

Are you sure you're in the right thread Nev? This is not a discussion about qualities needed for breeding (there is another thread on that elsewhere ).

This is about working with the dog you have.

And mine are also desexed Though I have had people ask to use them

To be honest Kavik, the thread turned a little off topic with the mention of a "competition" dog being unable to accept an E Collar correction which is a very fine tool for conditioning the out of sight stay............infact it's one of, if not the best tool I have ever used with the greatest success in that application. The thread really wasn't about employing techniques suitable for dogs in competition lacking in nerve strength where I would have provided a more suitable suggestion. Nervy dogs are hard to train and my immediate thought when talking competition that the dog trialling would be of a good nerve platform.

Training and trialling dogs of less than ideal temperament is a great learning curve as a trainer/handler as a foundation for trialling a better dog in the future. There is a massive difference and so much easier working with a dog of solid nerve and training for competition. So much valuable training time is absorbed and lost counter-conditioning spooky traits and behaviours when finally training a solid nerved dog, the difference is chalk and cheese

Cheers

Nev

[Kavik]

I think the issue surrounding the ecollar was 1) legality and that it is against the COE of the ANKC and the OP may not feel comfortable using it or be well rehearsed in using it and 2) maybe not the best tool to use if the dog is already anxious about out of sight stays.

I agree it is much nicer to be able to concentrate on the intricacies of a training exercise than the dog's behaviour (one of mine is dog aggressive and it is so much nicer to be able to spend time on training issues rather than behaviour!). But I don't think it really has anything to do with the thread. Neither does breeding. Most of the people I know who compete in obedience and agility with their dogs don't breed, just train and compete.

[Zug Zug]

Hmm, thanks Rubystar but it's okay - no need to feel sorry for me I've found some of this discussion very interesting.

Nev - I know not all of your points were aimed at my original post, but I do have a dog that you may consider to have a 'poor nerve platform' and I do trial with her, so I want to respond.

First, she loves trialling. It's not just me - she really thrives on it. Actually it's me who gets slack sometimes (like recently) and it's her antsy behaviour at home when not kept mentally stimulated that gets me back out there. I had a number of people come up to me after her individual exercises the other weekend to congratulate me on how happy she is when working in the ring. And it's true - it's a game to her and she has a ball doing it.

The problem for us is the stays, and this does get back to her life-long separation anxiety issues. I think you make a fair point in this regard. If the out of sight stays remain a very distressing thing for her, in spite of my efforts to make her more comfortable, then I will stop trialling at that level - plain and simple.

After all, there's always veterans/vintage class for which (at 12 years old) she is more than eligible. And in that class the stays are always in sight (I think).

But it's too early to make that call just yet I think, because deep down I know I haven't given her a solid enough foundation yet for the out of sight stays, so I need to go back and build that up. She has surprised me many times during her life so you never know.

If I had taken the view with her that she had a poor nerve platform and was therefore faulty in some way, we would both have missed out on some wonderful experiences. But having said that I have another little dog at home who just didn't enjoy this kind of training and would not have liked trialling - so he is a happy little couch dog and enjoying a quiet old age.

So you're right there is a line. But some anxiety in the ring is not, in itself, evidence that the dog should not be trialling. It's more complicated than that.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Zug Zug