Retraining Out Of Sight Stays

[K9Nev]

Do you compete in ANKC obedience Nev?

They have no place in obedience training for ANKC trialling!!!!

I wouldn't recommend use of e-collar in South Australia for anything.

Unless you'd like to be arrested.

K9Nev is SA on your location "South Africa"?

My one exception would be for the "invisible fence" on a property that is too big/awkward to have normal fences put up.

You would be surprised where E collars are used regularly in SA

Why is that Bedazzled.............I am interested in your views on that???

Cheers

Nev

No, I haven't competed in ANKC obedience yet Bedazzled. If your question to me is leading towards informing me that E Collars are not permitted in competition, I do understand that, as they are not permitted in any competition that I am aware of, but regardless of the competition criteria, the training for any obedience routine can be conducted anywhere using any tools one may desire to condition the required behaviour outside of the competition/trialling ring is were E Collars can be used with great success.

Cheers

Nev

Edited July 6, 2010 by K9Nev

[ness]

K9Nev I think its actually against ANKC rules for members to use such devices on their dogs. I think if the ANKC find out then they will suspend your membership. And I don't just mean in competition I mean full stop on a dog. The one I am thinking of used it to stop a dog who was chasing bikes.

Edited July 6, 2010 by ness

[K9Nev]

K9Nev I think its actually against ANKC rules for members to use such devices on their dogs. I think if the ANKC find out then they will suspend your membership. And I don't just mean in competition I mean full stop on a dog. The one I am thinking of used it to stop a dog who was chasing bikes.

That could be true too Ness, I am not familiar with those rules as such. There are however, many that do use E Collars in training which esentially would be an extremely difficult case to prove against someone, but having said that, would give reason for why E Collar use is often vigorously denied in many circumstances

Cheers

Nev

[bedazzledx2]

And therin lies the answer to why they have no place in training for competition. You have just proved the dubious ethics of said collar and users. Good Lord...this is a competition for ribbons! It is not life and death, these are not Military dogs, they are our pets. If we choose to train and compete in a sport that does not allow these things then it is our responsibility to train (teach) our dogs arbitrary rules without fear or aversives.

In answer to the OP who wisely realises that an E Collar is only going to increase the anxiety her dog feels, I would take your dog back to baby stays. use a different word (you may have a poisoned cue with your current stay word) and reward close stays in many different situations. Until your dog has a good reward history of staying in distracting situations with lots of rewards I wouldn't go for time or distance yet. Leopuppy has given you some great advice.

K9Nev I think its actually against ANKC rules for members to use such devices on their dogs. I think if the ANKC find out then they will suspend your membership. And I don't just mean in competition I mean full stop on a dog. The one I am thinking of used it to stop a dog who was chasing bikes.

That could be true too Ness, I am not familiar with those rules as such. There are however, many that do use E Collars in training which esentially would be an extremely difficult case to prove against someone, but having said that, would give reason for why E Collar use is often vigorously denied in many circumstances

Cheers

Nev

edited for spelling

Edited July 7, 2010 by bedazzledx2

[Cosmolo]

Wow bedazzled.. I actually completely agree with you that an e collar is not right in this situation and think leopuppy has given GREAT advice which i would second. But don't you think this comment is one step too far?

"You have just proved the dubious ethics of said collar and users"

Thanks for responding to my query Zug Zug- just thought it was something worth considering if this behaviour was a little more out of the ordinary.

[bedazzledx2]

No because the op said after having been made aware of the fact that it is not allowable 'many use it, you can't prove it and it would be denied', this in my opinion is unethical.

Wow bedazzled.. I actually completely agree with you that an e collar is not right in this situation and think leopuppy has given GREAT advice which i would second. But don't you think this comment is one step too far?

"You have just proved the dubious ethics of said collar and users"

Thanks for responding to my query Zug Zug- just thought it was something worth considering if this behaviour was a little more out of the ordinary.

Edited July 7, 2010 by bedazzledx2

[K9Nev]

And therin lies the answer to why they have no place in training for competition. You have just proved the dubious ethics of said collar and users. Good Lord...this is a competition for ribbons! It is not life and death, these are not Military dogs, they are our pets. If we choose to train and compete in a sport that does not allow these things then it is our responsibility to train (teach) our dogs arbitrary rules without fear or aversives.

In answer to the OP who wisely realises that an E Collar is only going to increase the anxiety her dog feels, I would take your dog back to baby stays. use a different word (you may have a poisoned cue with your current stay word) and reward close stays in many different situations. Until your dog has a good reward history of staying in distracting situations with lots of rewards I wouldn't go for time or distance yet. Leopuppy has given you some great advice.

K9Nev I think its actually against ANKC rules for members to use such devices on their dogs. I think if the ANKC find out then they will suspend your membership. And I don't just mean in competition I mean full stop on a dog. The one I am thinking of used it to stop a dog who was chasing bikes.

That could be true too Ness, I am not familiar with those rules as such. There are however, many that do use E Collars in training which esentially would be an extremely difficult case to prove against someone, but having said that, would give reason for why E Collar use is often vigorously denied in many circumstances

Cheers

Nev

edited for spelling

That depends on what the individual person is hoping to achieve in competition.........to say that I didn't use an E Collar as a reason for not winning doesn't cut it with all competitors in the real world. Some of the winners who do train with E Collars deny it anyway for the most part............so I guess it boils down to how competitive you want to be and each to their own in that regard

As far as an E Collar on low stimulation shutting a dog down to increase anxiety, I would seriously question why a dog of such a nerve structure is being trialled in the first place and would be looking as far as competition goes to trial a dog of a more appropriate temperament to be honest. If the dog is already under that much stress in the trial ring, perhaps trialling that particular dog is too much for it???

Cheers

Nev

[Staranais]

Agree with Cosmolo. It's fair enough to say that you think K9Nev's suggestion is unethical (if you feel that to be the case), but to say that somehow proves that ecollar "users" have dubious ethics is illogical, and insulting to the trainers on this forum that do use e collars but do not cheat in obedience. Or perhaps you meant to say "some ecollar users" not just "ecollar users"?

As for the original question, I wouldn't personally think I'd use even a low stim ecollar on a dog that was breaking stays due to nervousness, regardless of what the rules allow, since I've always been taught not to add pressure to a dog that was already nervous. That's not to say it can't be done or wouldn't help, just that I'd be nervous of getting it wrong & causing more harm than good, so I wouldn't be game to try it. I'd be building the dog's confidence as much as I could instead with successful repetitions & big rewards.

[Kavik]

I agree with the others. I also don't think an ecollar would be appropriate to use on a dog in a situation where it is already showing anxiety.

[Aidan]

As far as an E Collar on low stimulation shutting a dog down to increase anxiety, I would seriously question why a dog of such a nerve structure is being trialled in the first place

Or needing to cheat to pass...

[bedazzledx2]

OK edit to say some e collar users. Off to training now with my clicker and treats

Agree with Cosmolo. It's fair enough to say that you think K9Nev's suggestion is unethical (if you feel that to be the case), but to say that somehow proves that ecollar "users" have dubious ethics is illogical, and insulting to the trainers on this forum that do use e collars but do not cheat in obedience. Or perhaps you meant to say "some ecollar users" not just "ecollar users"?

As for the original question, I wouldn't personally think I'd use even a low stim ecollar on a dog that was breaking stays due to nervousness, regardless of what the rules allow, since I've always been taught not to add pressure to a dog that was already nervous. That's not to say it can't be done or wouldn't help, just that I'd be nervous of getting it wrong & causing more harm than good, so I wouldn't be game to try it. I'd be building the dog's confidence as much as I could instead with successful repetitions & big rewards.

[Staranais]

OK edit to say some e collar users. Off to training now with my clicker and treats

LOL, so are we! And I'm bringing along my secret weapon (... the leather bite rag of doom).

Thanks for clarifying.

[Cosmolo]

Thanks bedazzled, I appreciate it.

[Cosmolo]

Edit- double post

Edited July 7, 2010 by Cosmolo

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

What Ness said.

If you admit to using an ecollar for any reason - you get banned from your dog club and the competition hosting organisation (SACA in South Australia).

Personally, I think e collars could be more humane than choke collars. But plenty of us get results without choke collars too. I'd like to use clickers more at our dog club but they're not too keen on that either. Or front attach harnesses. And they wonder why they have such a hard time recruiting younger people to help them run the club.

Not sure how an ecollar can help with an anxious dog stay. But I think that's more my limitation - lack of knowledge in technique. I also think if I can't work a clicker reliably (unco with timing etc), it's a bit pointless to try with an ecollar where timing is even more important.

I have watched an extremely anxious dog grow in confidence to the point where he's more comfortable with things like the agility measuring stick, than my dog, and he's now quite keen to nick off and tour the park without his owner where as before he was terrifed to be apart from his owner, or to be approached by anyone except his owner. We're hoping he matures out of it and the owner gets him to have much more value in recall. (yummy treat here). We really think a major adversive like an ecollar will just send him back into his shell.

[K9Nev]

What Ness said.

If you admit to using an ecollar for any reason - you get banned from your dog club and the competition hosting organisation (SACA in South Australia).

Personally, I think e collars could be more humane than choke collars. But plenty of us get results without choke collars too. I'd like to use clickers more at our dog club but they're not too keen on that either. Or front attach harnesses. And they wonder why they have such a hard time recruiting younger people to help them run the club.

Not sure how an ecollar can help with an anxious dog stay. But I think that's more my limitation - lack of knowledge in technique. I also think if I can't work a clicker reliably (unco with timing etc), it's a bit pointless to try with an ecollar where timing is even more important.

I have watched an extremely anxious dog grow in confidence to the point where he's more comfortable with things like the agility measuring stick, than my dog, and he's now quite keen to nick off and tour the park without his owner where as before he was terrifed to be apart from his owner, or to be approached by anyone except his owner. We're hoping he matures out of it and the owner gets him to have much more value in recall. (yummy treat here). We really think a major adversive like an ecollar will just send him back into his shell.

It amazes me how people can put an anxious dog through the stress of trialling where quite clearly it has an insuffient nerve platform to do the job. It's ok to impose trialling stress on the dog week after week, month after month trying to overcome the dog's anxiety, but the stress of an E Collar is considered inhumane, but personally, I think the trialling of a dog with insuffient nerve strength is far worse. Anxious dogs IMHO are better off curled up on the lounge enjoyed as pet, not being exposed to the stress of competition when genetically compromised.

Cheers

Nev

Edited July 7, 2010 by K9Nev

[bedazzledx2]

Apart from the E collar discussion on which I think we have to agree to disagree, how do you determine 'nerve strength'?

What Ness said.

If you admit to using an ecollar for any reason - you get banned from your dog club and the competition hosting organisation (SACA in South Australia).

Personally, I think e collars could be more humane than choke collars. But plenty of us get results without choke collars too. I'd like to use clickers more at our dog club but they're not too keen on that either. Or front attach harnesses. And they wonder why they have such a hard time recruiting younger people to help them run the club.

Not sure how an ecollar can help with an anxious dog stay. But I think that's more my limitation - lack of knowledge in technique. I also think if I can't work a clicker reliably (unco with timing etc), it's a bit pointless to try with an ecollar where timing is even more important.

I have watched an extremely anxious dog grow in confidence to the point where he's more comfortable with things like the agility measuring stick, than my dog, and he's now quite keen to nick off and tour the park without his owner where as before he was terrifed to be apart from his owner, or to be approached by anyone except his owner. We're hoping he matures out of it and the owner gets him to have much more value in recall. (yummy treat here). We really think a major adversive like an ecollar will just send him back into his shell.

It amazes me how people can put an anxious dog through the stress of trialling where quite clearly it has an insuffient nerve platform to do the job. It's ok to impose trialling stress on the dog week after week, month after month trying to overcome the dog's anxiety, but the stress of an E Collar is considered inhumane, but personally, I think the trialling of a dog with insuffient nerve strength is far worse. Anxious dogs IMHO are better off curled up on the lounge enjoyed as pet, not being exposed to the stress of competition when genetically compromised.

Cheers

Nev

[ness]

K9Nev wrote: It amazes me how people can put an anxious dog through the stress of trialling where quite clearly it has an insufficient nerve platform to do the job. Anxious dogs IMHO are better off curled up on the lounge enjoyed as pet, not being exposed to the stress of competition when genetically compromised.

I have an anxious dog with a less then desirable nerve platform who some suggested to me was best written off from a performance perspective as a 16 week old baby - not a great thing to hear when you have purchased her with the intention of trialling in the future. She is now just over 2 and has one ANKC DWD title under her belt (obtained interstate to boot and with placings including a win achieved at 20 months of age). She has been entered in one agility trial and while didn't qualify it certainly wasn't due to her "nerves" more to do with the fact my first dog is a little slower so my handling wasn't quite up to scratch. Do you suggest that she is better off curled up on the lounge? She is also pretty high drive.

We also started the K9Pro Training in Drive package a little over 9 weeks ago and all I can say is its like I have a new dog. There is absolutely no reason why she won't get in the ring eventually from what I have seen of her now. Sure she will have her good days when things are running to perfection and some days something seemingly minor might totally upset that and she comes off a little worse for wear but thats ANKC trialling for you. They aren't robots. Even dogs with ideal genetics will still have bad days.

Edited July 7, 2010 by ness

[Tiggy]

Well said ness

[leopuppy04]

K9Nev wrote: It amazes me how people can put an anxious dog through the stress of trialling where quite clearly it has an insufficient nerve platform to do the job. Anxious dogs IMHO are better off curled up on the lounge enjoyed as pet, not being exposed to the stress of competition when genetically compromised.

I have an anxious dog with a less then desirable nerve platform who some suggested to me was best written off from a performance perspective as a 16 week old baby - not a great thing to hear when you have purchased her with the intention of trialling in the future. She is now just over 2 and has one ANKC DWD title under her belt (obtained interstate to boot and with placings including a win achieved at 20 months of age). She has been entered in one agility trial and while didn't qualify it certainly wasn't due to her "nerves" more to do with the fact my first dog is a little slower so my handling wasn't quite up to scratch. Do you suggest that she is better off curled up on the lounge? She is also pretty high drive.

We also started the K9Pro Training in Drive package a little over 9 weeks ago and all I can say is its like I have a new dog. There is absolutely no reason why she won't get in the ring eventually from what I have seen of her now. Sure she will have her good days when things are running to perfection and some days something seemingly minor might totally upset that and she comes off a little worse for wear but thats ANKC trialling for you. They aren't robots. Even dogs with ideal genetics will still have bad days.

I agree - well said Ness.

I think if any dog was a complete basket case *in the ring* then yes, is it really fair to trial them... after all we aren't competing for cattle stations here....

but there are a lot of dogs out there who just love trialling regardless of any baggage they may carry and due to expert handling and a great bond with their owners, they excel!