Retraining Out Of Sight Stays

[Zug Zug]

OK, so Zamba and I have been experiencing lots of stay problems of late. We'd had a pretty good set of stays to finish novice, but has fallen apart as we've moved up to out of sight stays in open.

It has developed into a situation where she stays happily at home and in our local park (mostly), but panics in a trial environment. It has happened 3 times now - once at a mock trial, then training on the sidelines at a trial a few months ago, and again yesterday. So it's definitely a pattern - she just panics in a trial environment when I'm out of sight.

This should not surprise me - she's always had separation anxiety issues. This is just the latest version.

So we're going back to kindergarten and I'd love some feedback on the following re-training plan.

It's all based around her favourite thing in the world - denta stix:

- week 1 - at home (inside or out) - 2-3 min sit stay out of sight = half a denta stick, then random length drop stay out of sight up to max 2 mins = other half denta stick (she will find this very easy but I want to get her confidence back up)

- week 2 - in our local park - 30 seconds to 2 mins sit stay out of sight = half a denta stick, then random length drop stay out of sight up to max 2 mins with me popping my nose out occasionally to look at her = other half denta stick

- week 3 - in our local park - 1-2 min sit stay out of sight = half a denta stick, then random length drop stay out of sight up to max 1.5 mins = other half denta stick

- week 4 - in our other local park - 2.5 - 3.5 min sit stay out of sight = half a denta stick, then 2-4 min drop stay out of sight = other half

- week 5 - in either one of the 2 local parks we often train at - min 3 min sit stay out of sight = half a denta stick, then min 4 min drop stay out of sight = other half

- week 6 to 10 - same thing but in lots of different parks, varying the length of the stays each time (some short ones, some longer ones, but no longer than 4 mins in the sit or 7 mins in the drop). Occasionally making them very short e.g. 1 min just to keep her interested.

Then we enter another trial. By then it will be mid to late September.

What do people think? I'm thinking we find a chance to train it once a day - either in my lunch break or after work. I will muck around with other stuff in the meantime, just to keep it there, but concentrate on the stays. Her other exercises are not perfect, but they are already in place and it's just polishing really. Stays are the problem.

Realistically some of those park trips will end up being at home, 'cos it will be too cold and dark some nights. But we get out and about as often as we can.

???

[K9Nev]

OK, so Zamba and I have been experiencing lots of stay problems of late. We'd had a pretty good set of stays to finish novice, but has fallen apart as we've moved up to out of sight stays in open.

It has developed into a situation where she stays happily at home and in our local park (mostly), but panics in a trial environment. It has happened 3 times now - once at a mock trial, then training on the sidelines at a trial a few months ago, and again yesterday. So it's definitely a pattern - she just panics in a trial environment when I'm out of sight.

This should not surprise me - she's always had separation anxiety issues. This is just the latest version.

So we're going back to kindergarten and I'd love some feedback on the following re-training plan.

It's all based around her favourite thing in the world - denta stix:

- week 1 - at home (inside or out) - 2-3 min sit stay out of sight = half a denta stick, then random length drop stay out of sight up to max 2 mins = other half denta stick (she will find this very easy but I want to get her confidence back up)

- week 2 - in our local park - 30 seconds to 2 mins sit stay out of sight = half a denta stick, then random length drop stay out of sight up to max 2 mins with me popping my nose out occasionally to look at her = other half denta stick

- week 3 - in our local park - 1-2 min sit stay out of sight = half a denta stick, then random length drop stay out of sight up to max 1.5 mins = other half denta stick

- week 4 - in our other local park - 2.5 - 3.5 min sit stay out of sight = half a denta stick, then 2-4 min drop stay out of sight = other half

- week 5 - in either one of the 2 local parks we often train at - min 3 min sit stay out of sight = half a denta stick, then min 4 min drop stay out of sight = other half

- week 6 to 10 - same thing but in lots of different parks, varying the length of the stays each time (some short ones, some longer ones, but no longer than 4 mins in the sit or 7 mins in the drop). Occasionally making them very short e.g. 1 min just to keep her interested.

Then we enter another trial. By then it will be mid to late September.

What do people think? I'm thinking we find a chance to train it once a day - either in my lunch break or after work. I will muck around with other stuff in the meantime, just to keep it there, but concentrate on the stays. Her other exercises are not perfect, but they are already in place and it's just polishing really. Stays are the problem.

Realistically some of those park trips will end up being at home, 'cos it will be too cold and dark some nights. But we get out and about as often as we can.

???

The same situation experienced in a working dog...........I would add a correction into the format along with the Denta stick reward for the dog to learn the difference between getting the exercise right and wrong. The E collar as an aversive nowdays is far superior to the old long leash back tie and correction method for a broken stay. Personally I think any dog faulting in especially out of sight stays is a good candidate for E collar work to simplify the drawn out process in the positive only conditioning.

Cheers

Nev

[kallistar]

OK, so Zamba and I have been experiencing lots of stay problems of late. We'd had a pretty good set of stays to finish novice, but has fallen apart as we've moved up to out of sight stays in open.

It has developed into a situation where she stays happily at home and in our local park (mostly), but panics in a trial environment. It has happened 3 times now - once at a mock trial, then training on the sidelines at a trial a few months ago, and again yesterday. So it's definitely a pattern - she just panics in a trial environment when I'm out of sight.

This should not surprise me - she's always had separation anxiety issues. This is just the latest version.

So we're going back to kindergarten and I'd love some feedback on the following re-training plan.

What do people think? I'm thinking we find a chance to train it once a day - either in my lunch break or after work. I will muck around with other stuff in the meantime, just to keep it there, but concentrate on the stays. Her other exercises are not perfect, but they are already in place and it's just polishing really. Stays are the problem.

Realistically some of those park trips will end up being at home, 'cos it will be too cold and dark some nights. But we get out and about as often as we can.

???

Zug, can you explain exactly what happens and in which position Zamba breaking from ( sit or down) ?

Have you done the three D'S?

What have you have done to build her confidence for out of sight stays?

Correcting a dog that is anxious and doesn't understand what is required of them, won't make them do out side of sight stays. Patience will.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I wouldn't recommend use of e-collar in South Australia for anything.

Unless you'd like to be arrested.

K9Nev is SA on your location "South Africa"?

My one exception would be for the "invisible fence" on a property that is too big/awkward to have normal fences put up.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I'm nowhere near Novice obedience.

I've got good improvement on my stays from training TOT methods ie she has to do a good stay (including me going out of sight) in front of her dinner (massive temptation).

When our stays go to hell, I reduce the distance, or the time or both. So I'm thinking - do your practice same environment but much shorter times out of sight. And shorter distance ie loop behind a person holding a sheet while still near the dog , and straight back. Repeat lots. then gradually work on time or distance but not both at once. Start with time because you won't get distance without it.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[K9Nev]

I wouldn't recommend use of e-collar in South Australia for anything.

Unless you'd like to be arrested.

K9Nev is SA on your location "South Africa"?

My one exception would be for the "invisible fence" on a property that is too big/awkward to have normal fences put up.

You would be surprised where E collars are used regularly in SA

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I do think it's stupid they're outlawed, but I also think that users should be trained and licenced (as should dog owners generally)

PS - police dog training?

Edited July 4, 2010 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[bedazzledx2]

They have no place in obedience training for ANKC trialling!!!!

I wouldn't recommend use of e-collar in South Australia for anything.

Unless you'd like to be arrested.

K9Nev is SA on your location "South Africa"?

My one exception would be for the "invisible fence" on a property that is too big/awkward to have normal fences put up.

You would be surprised where E collars are used regularly in SA

[Aidan]

Is the DentaStick being used as a reinforcer during or after the stay? Is it an effective reinforcer (i.e are you getting more of the response?)

During the trials and mock trials, are these done with other dogs? Does your training plan include other dogs also in stays? A judge? A ring? Look for the differences between training and trialling situations, work them in.

Rather than setting arbitrary limits for duration, I'd prefer a results based approach such as the "300 Peck" method http://positivepetzine.com/300_Peck , or if you would prefer, only increase duration at a rate where you get success in 4/5 trials and adjust time based on whether you got 4/5 or not.

[The Spotted Devil]

I agree with Aidan in terms of the arbitrary limits for duration.

Personally, I would put the 'late September' trialling goal out of your head because you are training for an end result rather than critically analysing your dog's progress and going at her pace. For an anxious dog I would be training for not just reliability and duration but for confidence. I would rather my dog do a confident 30s sit stay out of sight than an anxious 3 min sit stay out of sight. Let her body language tell you when she is ready to trial - your relationship with her is much more important than a pass card

[Staranais]

- week 6 to 10 - same thing but in lots of different parks, varying the length of the stays each time (some short ones, some longer ones, but no longer than 4 mins in the sit or 7 mins in the drop). Occasionally making them very short e.g. 1 min just to keep her interested.

Then we enter another trial. By then it will be mid to late September.

OK, hang on there a minute. Where are the intermediate steps between training at other parks (week 10) & actually doing trials? Seems to me that going straight from a park to a trial is a huge leap in criteria! Especially since she specifically has an issue with the trial environment.

Between week 10 & the actual trial, I'd spend quite a bit of time going to different places that resemble trials & doing stay practice there.

Can you get to other obedience or agility trials and do some stay practice there? Don't enter the trial, just go along to practice stays outside the ring in the trial atmosphere. Or go to a few different dog obedience schools, or agility schools - don't do the class, just ask them if you can practice your stays at the periphery of the field. Or how about your local farmers market? Get a friend to go with you to watch over your dog while you duck round the corner, to make sure nothing scary happens to her in your absence.

[Zug Zug]

Thanks everyone! Lots to think about.

You've asked me lots of questions so I'll try to answer as many as I can:

Have I considered use of an e-collar? No. At this stage I would not want to introduce something like that. She is nervous and a bit panicky now. Her stress is genuine - she is not just being disobedient. I want her to be confident and I don't think an e-collar would help build her confidence.

Can I explain when she breaks? She used to break stays when we trialled in CCD. So I went back to kindergarten then and did lots of reinforcing in stays. After that she became rock solid with in-sight stays through the rest of our CCD and Novice trialling. Her training for out of sight stays at home has progressed pretty well over the last 8 months or so. Steady improvement. And she is pretty solid (most of the time) at club (I train at 2 different clubs - one on Wednesday nights and the other on Sunday mornings). But those are with dogs she has become familiar with. And the Wednesday night class has stopped doing the group stays because of lack of time.

When she has lost confidence it goes like this - nervous dog looking around a lot, whining dog, then (a few times at trials only) panicked dog that is coming to find me. :D

What have I done so far to build her confidence in the stays? Repetition and reward. Tried to do different things at different times e.g. in the spare bedroom, in the passageway, in the backyard, and in different bits of the backyard, then at the local park, and at club etc. But I think I haven't done enough here, because she isn't confident so I think more repetition needed.

Have I done the 3 Ds? I don't know what that is.

Is the DentaStick being used during or after the stay? After mostly. Occasionally I break it up smaller and go back to give some during, but if I'm honest I haven't done that much.

Is the DentaStick an effective reinforcer? I.e. does it improve her performance? Good question - I think so but I'm not really sure. It has worked well in the backyard phase of her training. She really loves these things and sees them as a jackpot reward I would say. It's the kind of thing that when she gets it she wants to run off and eat it somewhere private (but I've stopped letting her run off with it otherwise she'll bolt off the line in a trial). But I don't know we're having problems. Maybe because I use them at home but haven't done enough with them away from home? I'm not sure.

Should I let go of a September trialling dream? I had my heart set on completing her CDX this year. You're probably right I should probably let go of any given date. But she is 12 years old and I worry that if we don't get there soon, we might not get there at all. But then, if we don't sort the stays out properly, we won't get there anyway so I am very aware of the flaw in my logic here. It's an emotional thing on my part.

Should we go with a performance-based decision based on where she is up to, rather than a set date? Probably. See above. Sigh.

Can we practice at the sidelines in a trial setting? I think yes, although I did get in trouble for this recently because I went behind a hide and she got very stressed and bolted off to find me. I had a few people watching, but they couldn't get my eye at the right time (I was looking down at my stop-watch). I got told off and lost my nerve a bit after that, but I do think I'll need to do some stays at the sidelines of some trials before we can work this out. Because it seems there is something spooky about trial environments. But I should ask for less from her until I'm really sure she can handle it.

Also there is a mock trial locally next weekend which I'm going to. I'm thinking about doing the stays, but remaining in sight for this mock trial. Again, to help get her confidence back up. Will they let me do that do you think?

Edited July 5, 2010 by Zug Zug

[kallistar]

Thanks everyone! Lots to think about.

You've asked me lots of questions so I'll try to answer as many as I can:

Have I done the 3 Ds? I don't know what that is.

ZugZug

The three D's are Duration Distance and Distractions..

[Zug Zug]

OK, well in that case I've been working on the 3 D's since we started training stays many years ago.

Of the 3 I would say distance is the one she worries about the most.

[K9Nev]

They have no place in obedience training for ANKC trialling!!!!

I wouldn't recommend use of e-collar in South Australia for anything.

Unless you'd like to be arrested.

K9Nev is SA on your location "South Africa"?

My one exception would be for the "invisible fence" on a property that is too big/awkward to have normal fences put up.

You would be surprised where E collars are used regularly in SA

Why is that Bedazzled.............I am interested in your views on that???

Cheers

Nev

[pipsqueak]

just a thought from a very "new" trainer, and someone who has never trialled. Is it possible to get someone else to reward her for staying whilst your out of sight? Might build good associations, that may transfer to the trial - oh, that judge or steward might just have something yummy for me, which I'll get if I stay put - might help build confidence, or may lessen her anxiety?

[Cosmolo]

Has the anxiety increased again recently? If so, given the dogs age have you ruled out any physiological decline?

[leopuppy04]

As someone who has worked long and hard through a variety of stay - breakers, a few ideas:

1 - rather than looking at building duration, look at building value for the 'stay'.... I would rather reward 50 x for a 30sec stay and have the dog say "I NEVER want to leave this position again" then trying to build up to a 3min stay immediately (not saying that you are).

2 - Build the value back up with you present - at least for the first few times. We need her to regain confidence. So I would actually stay present for 90% of the stay and then disappear only to come back again

3 - have a spotter who can click the dog when she is calm - you hear the click and return to her

4 - practice your sit and down stays in a separate session to avoid confusion

5 - The BEST thing I have done is to have the 'judge' come and feed her when she is nice and relaxed. It means if Zumba feels threatened in a stay at a trial, she'll default to the judge rather than to yourself.

6 - NEVER correct her when she breaks a stay - this will give her less confidence. If she has broken, just walk back 'oops too bad' and then either put her in a crate or end the training session. Loose all opportunity for a reward

7 - probably most importantly - how well does the dog know the stay? Can she stay when it's boring? with lots of distractions? with you sitting in different positions? there is a wonderful section on stays on the Chris Bach DVD which basically looks at 'reminding' the dog where the weight has to be for a solid stay. so gentle pressure on the paws, bum or on the dogs side, pulling it forward. Do they resist you and pull back as though to say "mum told me to stay, so stay I will". I actually would C&T the pull back initially.

Some thoughts for you

I'd even use something really tasty like a chicken wing or chicken necks as a reward

[bedazzledx2]

Do you compete in ANKC obedience Nev?

They have no place in obedience training for ANKC trialling!!!!

I wouldn't recommend use of e-collar in South Australia for anything.

Unless you'd like to be arrested.

K9Nev is SA on your location "South Africa"?

My one exception would be for the "invisible fence" on a property that is too big/awkward to have normal fences put up.

You would be surprised where E collars are used regularly in SA

Why is that Bedazzled.............I am interested in your views on that???

Cheers

Nev

[Zug Zug]

Some great ideas here. Really like the idea of someone rewarding while I am away.

Thanks everyone. I'll get back to work and let you know how it goes.

P.S I don't think physiological but possible. She has had a bit of a tummy bug recently also. No more bones for my old girl she can't digest them anymore. But she has had separation anxiety since we first found her in the pound and my instincts say this is the latest version of her various anxieties.