Dogs And Their Potential

[Mas1981]

I was just sitting and thinking the other day, do all dogs have the potential to trial in obedience and agility and is it just a question of being trained correctly or is it possible that some dogs just dont have it in them due to a lack of intelligence or attitude?

[Kavik]

An obedience or agility competition is a highly distracting environment that is very different to that of a training ground. LOTS more people and dogs, food, smells, PA systems, plus it is all day and during the day (and a lot of training is done in the evening). Though some trials are bigger/smaller than others. So I think a dog that gets stressed or very distracted in a busy environment is going to find it more difficult to work well in a competition environment. And dogs with aggression issues will be difficult to compete with due to the number of people. Plus handler nerves and stress effect dogs as well.

So no I don't think all dogs will enjoy competing. Some dogs are very placid and laid back and not interested in the precision and/or speed required for competition, while others don't have a stable enough temperament/good enough nerves to deal with the crowds and distractions, or may be aggressive towards dogs or people.

That does not mean those dogs are bad, just that they are not ideal for competition.

[Dory the Doted One]

Guess it depends on the owners objective too. I used to trial, and when I competed it was to compete against myself. I didn't need to be the highest score in the ring, I just had to be the best team I could be. Other days i was happy with just a pass.

I have owned one dog that was virtually impossible to train for obedience competitions. On a lead for walks and around the house she was good. But try to do something a little more formal and she would drop to the ground and play dead dog. She was not interested in food or toys and would happily lay there for quite some time. As i was not particularly attached to the outcome of her being an obedience dog, she would invariable win this contest of wills.

[Tiggy]

There's probably more humans that don't have the potential than dogs

[Kavik]

There's probably more humans that don't have the potential than dogs

I am still battling nerves to handle my dog well It is a distracting environment for the handlers too!

[huski]

I think just about any dog is capable of doing it but not as many dogs have the potential to be really good at it, excel at it and get through to all the higher levels.

In saying that I see way too many people who write their dogs off because they don't know how to harness their potential and don't think the dog is capable of good work.

I see this often in dogs with higher drive and therefore dogs who can be quite easily distracted, the owners often don't know what to do with them and get stuck in the rut of thinking they need to lessen their dogs drive instead of making it work for them. I also see certain people who will write dogs off because of their breed as they simply don't know how to train them.

[Mas1981]

I think just about any dog is capable of doing it but not as many dogs have the potential to be really good at it, excel at it and get through to all the higher levels.

In saying that I see way too many people who write their dogs off because they don't know how to harness their potential and don't think the dog is capable of good work.

I see this often in dogs with higher drive and therefore dogs who can be quite easily distracted, the owners often don't know what to do with them and get stuck in the rut of thinking they need to lessen their dogs drive instead of making it work for them. I also see certain people who will write dogs off because of their breed as they simply don't know how to train them.

This is along the lines of what I am thinking Huski, that most dogs ( not all) could compete quite successfully ( at least at the lower levels) IF their owners knew what made them tick if you know what I mean?

I think for eg my dog with a different handler could be way way better than he actually is, I find it hard to work our what makes him tick ( yes he is a lab and loves food BUT he loves other dogs more), he will like a toy but after I use it in training him ( yes I do alternate etc) he gets bored of that toy and in a group lesson he couldnt give 2 hoots about ANY toy.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Mas1981

[huski]

This is along the lines of what I am thinking Huski, that most dogs ( not all) could compete quite successfully ( at least at the lower levels) IF their owners knew what made them tick if you know what I mean?

I think for eg my dog with a different handler could be way way better than he actually is, I find it hard to work our what makes him tick ( yes he is a lab and loves food BUT he loves other dogs more), he will like a toy but after I use it in training him ( yes I do alternate etc) he gets bored of that toy and in a group lesson he couldnt give 2 hoots about ANY toy.

That's problem one of the most common problems (dog does switches off/is not interested in reward under distraction) that I hear from people training their dog.

And it's the exact problem that I had too

My first question is always, when the dog is at home or in another really low distraction environment, how driven are they about food/toys? A lot of people will say "Oh he LOVES food/tugging/chasing the ball/etc at home!" To me that says the dog has that drive there to be developed, it's a case of building it and slowly introducing distractions (easier said than done, assuming too that the dog has no other underlying issues).

[Kavik]

I found I got quite frustrated with Diesel, who when in the mood could perform well but with allergies making him feel lethargic and being a bit of a stresshead also shut down in busy environments and if I was stressed/nervous. I can understand why someone would not perservere to try and compete with a dog who doesn't want to work consistently, as nobody then has fun, (and that is a lot of the point!). He is working much better now that I am no longer putting the pressure on us to be able to get to a standard to compete. He can work well for short periods with a high rate of reinforcement - not that useful

[Mas1981]

I found I got quite frustrated with Diesel, who when in the mood could perform well but with allergies making him feel lethargic and being a bit of a stresshead also shut down in busy environments and if I was stressed/nervous. I can understand why someone would not perservere to try and compete with a dog who doesn't want to work consistently, as nobody then has fun, (and that is a lot of the point!). He is working much better now that I am no longer putting the pressure on us to be able to get to a standard to compete. He can work well for short periods with a high rate of reinforcement - not that useful

Lol i think my dog has the opposite problem, he does not have a care in the world, nothing bothers him....... mine also has allergies but I dont think his meds make him drowsy.

[Staranais]

Agree with huski that most dogs have the ability to compete at lower levels, although with some dogs it will take more work than others.

I know some dogs have such poor nerves that they are simply too nervous to work in a competition environment, even with the best training, and some dogs will have other issues (such as dog aggression) that preclude them from safely competing. And I suppose there are some dogs that genuinely have little to no drive for toys or food, so that the only practical way you can motivate them to work is serious deprivation or corrections - not fun for anyone, so why do it?

But I think most dogs I have met or trained with have the potential to compete at lower levels of competition, if the owner put in enough work.

Another issue can be that some dogs do not have the physical potential to compete. My last dog had crappy forelegs, got arthritis quite young so couldn't jump. So any level of agility, and any obedience competition involving jumps, were ruled out for us. He had the nerves & drive to do these things, but not the physical ability.

There's probably more humans that don't have the potential than dogs

Yes! I saw a t-shirt on line the other day that said "My malinois is handler impaired". I think I need one! :D

[K9Nev]

I think just about any dog is capable of doing it but not as many dogs have the potential to be really good at it, excel at it and get through to all the higher levels.

In saying that I see way too many people who write their dogs off because they don't know how to harness their potential and don't think the dog is capable of good work.

I see this often in dogs with higher drive and therefore dogs who can be quite easily distracted, the owners often don't know what to do with them and get stuck in the rut of thinking they need to lessen their dogs drive instead of making it work for them. I also see certain people who will write dogs off because of their breed as they simply don't know how to train them.

Any dog providing it has the required nerve structure is capable of competition, and mostly insuffient nerve strength is IMHO what separates the average dogs from the good ones in most cases. Ultimately high drive, thick nerved dogs are easiest to train, but lacking in drive I think is easier to overcome with adequate training than building nerve strength into a dog that is genetically deficient. Most competition day distractions and poor performances that otherwise in training are solidly conditioned are generally nerve strength issues that suppresses the dog's working ability.

There are definitely situations where handlers could harness their dog's potential having greater training knowledge in how to exctract it, but on the other hand I see many handlers battle with dogs that are really no good in the first place. I think to be successful in competition and enjoy a dog sport to a high level, you are best training a dog with the right temperament platform for the type of competition/work required of it. It's hard enough to train a great dog, but extremely frustrating and double the effort to train a mediocre one

Cheers

Nev

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Meh

I think all dogs can do obedience to some level.

I don't see how a deerhound can be expected to go through an agility tunnel though. Has it been done?

Again it's a matter of grade/quality.

Compare with me - I am not built to be a fast runner, and I don't have particularily good reflexes either, and my hand eye co-ordination is good but not fantastic. With training, I am better, but I will never be as good as those who started with naturally good talent. I am fairly good at being sneaky and analysing play and players and that can help me anticipate the next move and counter it.

So I never had a hope in hell of being an olympic hockey player. Some of those players move the ball so fast, I can't even see where it went.

But I do love playing at the level I'm at eg 4th grade eg Olympic then State, then Grade 1 - I'm grade 4 club. When I was younger and much fitter, I had a brief stint at grade 2, and benched for grade 1 (in case someone got injured).

I think it would be much the same for dogs and dog and handler teams. Some dogs are undone by their "coach", some never have the build/talent but can do better with a great coach. Whether a great coach would be happy with only a grade 4 dog - I don't know. Some are. Some are not. Some will coach at several levels, because if you can get more out of a grade 4 team, what could you do with a grade 1 team? Ie if you can get a "hard to train" dog to work, imagine what you could do with an easy to train one. Although the easy to train one - would learn from your mistakes or bad techniques too.

Interesting.

[sas]

I can only speak for my own breed.

They aren't the sharpest but they aren't dumb either however they will decide if they want to do something or not, they are an independent breed.

Can they be obedience and agility dogs to a higher level, yes some can.....not all though.

Independent Breeds vs Working Breeds.....BIG difference.

Edited July 4, 2010 by sas

[Tassie]

sas wrote

Independent Breeds vs Working Breeds.....BIG difference.

Yep - very true. With those breeds that were bred to wrok with a person (whatever that job might be) you've got a head start, although there are still individual dog differences of course.

Mrs Rusty Bucket wrote

I don't see how a deerhound can be expected to go through an agility tunnel though. Has it been done?

Don't kow about a deerhound, but I've seen a pretty competitive Great Dane (great dog -sadly now )

Staranais wrote

Yes! I saw a t-shirt on line the other day that said "My malinois is handler impaired". I think I need one!

I've got an agility T shirt that says "Dog needs younger handler" - and another one that says "Yes, I KNOW that was my fault" :p

[The Spotted Devil]

I need one of those t-shirts Something along the lines of "Yes, I Spotted that handling error as well"

There's such incredible variation between and within breeds that's incredibly hard to generalise, especially when you add mental maturity and the odd sex hormone thrown into the mix! When I first starting working with Ziggy I would have said that he was too intelligent with too much attitude and determination to do his own thing. But I was wrong. He's fantastic to work with - but it has taken lots of patience and observation to find out what makes him tick. I feel as though he has made me a better trainer. I can only hope that he has.

Edited July 5, 2010 by The Spotted Devil

[Aidan]

There is always room for improvement, for both dogs and handlers.

[Agility Dogs]

I think all dogs have potential to achieve at varying levels.

Two things I LOVE watching........

An AWESOME dog fulfilling its potential with a brilliant handler.

The only thing that beats it is.......

An average dog fulfilling its potential with a brilliant handler and beating a lot of dogs that 'could' do so much better. For me nothing beats a handler that has squeezed something special out of a dog that otherwise would not be so good. One day I want my boy to be this dog.

ETA - not that he isn't a brilliant dog in so many ways, but physically he is not as agile as some of the dogs he competes with and mentally we have had a lot of training issues due to some bad luck early on.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Agility Dogs

[poodlefan]

All dogs are trainable.

Some dogs display more apptitude for dog sports than others.

I agree with Agility Dogs that taking a dog that's not a "natural" through to titles is extremely rewarding, not to mention highly educating for a handler. It can also be a great team builder too.

My Lily was timid to the point of flight when we commenced agility training. She'd get overwhelmed and bolt to her place of safety - my backpack by the fence.

It took 6 months (many with me inside the tunnel) to get her through a full length tunnel and 9 months for the A-Frame. Every new club we trialled at meant unfamiliar obstacles that challenged her nerves. I'm not sure she ever went over one of Hawkesbury's multi coloured broad jumps.

She ended up CCD AD JDX and I was so proud of her the day she blew me off to run 10 metres for an off course tunnel. She actually won a JDX class one time when all the other faster dogs had DQs.

Edited July 5, 2010 by poodlefan

[Vickie]

I think just about any dog is capable of doing it but not as many dogs have the potential to be really good at it, excel at it and get through to all the higher levels.

In saying that I see way too many people who write their dogs off because they don't know how to harness their potential and don't think the dog is capable of good work.

I see this often in dogs with higher drive and therefore dogs who can be quite easily distracted, the owners often don't know what to do with them and get stuck in the rut of thinking they need to lessen their dogs drive instead of making it work for them. I also see certain people who will write dogs off because of their breed as they simply don't know how to train them.

what she said