winpara Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 (edited) ok... so I know its school hols but I'm not a troll I promise! One of my bitches who is due on 8/7 produced a surprise pup last Wednesday (30/6) - As she was more than a week away from being due she hadn't been moved to the "birthing suite" and was still up the kennel - I found the pup still wet but almost frozen solid (it was 9pm and Perth is cold ATM!!) I was sure she would be dead but shocked when she moved slightly! Went into panic mode and shifted mum into the whelping box and pup into the oven to reheat. Mum was showing no signs of being in labour, kept an eye on her for the night and whilst initially a little distressed she soon settled and seemed totally normal. Pup thawed out after about an hour and a half. I didn't want to give her to mum as I didn't believe she was looking like having any more and I didn't want the pups suckling to release more hormones and perhaps bring on labour if she wasn't ready. One pup born 8 days early was bad enough! Luckily one of my other bitches had also whelped that morning (by the book and on time) so I introduced the pup to that litter and luckily the bitch was happy to accept her (bitch is an older daughter of mum in question). Amazingly pup is still with us and though very small has gained weight the last two days so I am hopeful she will make it. We have been to the vet Thursday and again today for ultrasound and progesterone test. The ultrasound showed that the rest of the pups appear fine, moving and with good heartrates. Prog on Thursday was 19 which means she was not in labour. Have yet to get todays results but expect them soon. The bitch is also totally normal, eating well and doing everything you would expect of a bitch in her last week of pregnancy. She had a bit of brownish (old blood) discharge Thursday and Friday but today is back to just the clear viscous mucus they usually have when pregnant. So I am wondering if anyone has had something similar happen?? Is it possible for the bitch to abort a puppy who is alive and then continue the pregnancy as normal? The vet said that late abortions like that are usually because the pup is already dead and starting to decompose - well this pup was not only alive but obviously very strong to survive not only the birth but being almost frozen to death as well. And before anyone asks (as the vet did!) - no it is absolutely not possible that the lone pup actually belongs to the other bitch! ETA - todays prog was 12 so dropping but still in the normal range to maintain pregnancy. We have an appt for another ultrasound tomorrow.... Edited July 3, 2010 by winpara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisart Dobes Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 WOW - must say I have never heard of it and though our oldest litter is only 4 1/2 yrs old, my parents bred for 30+ years and I have 3 aunties and one of my sisters who all breed and exhibit and have done for years. Hope your miracle baby survives - have you thought of possibly a different sire and earlier mating ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winpara Posted July 3, 2010 Author Share Posted July 3, 2010 Yep - I have been breeding for the past 13yrs but am a "dog person" almost by birth as my parents have bred/shown dogs since I was about 2 and this has me totally stumped! I don't think the earlier mating scenario is possible - and even if it was it would be pretty amazing odds that that pup also just happened to also be the one at the end of the horn... ? I should add that the bitch is just turned 6 yrs and this is her 4th and final litter. She does tend to have her pups a few days early (2-3 days - not 8!) but has always been a very good "by the book" whelper otherwise and is an excellent mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chocolate Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 Very interesting to read about this. The only thing that I first wondered - is it possible she was carrying maximum capacity and literally had to expel one to maintain pregnancy i.e overcrowded. Any idea how many she is carrying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winpara Posted July 3, 2010 Author Share Posted July 3, 2010 Very interesting to read about this. The only thing that I first wondered - is it possible she was carrying maximum capacity and literally had to expel one to maintain pregnancy i.e overcrowded. Any idea how many she is carrying? No she doesn't look that big really. Certainly not big enough to kick one off the island She normally has 7 - and I would think that would be about right for this time too... with 6 (or maybe 5) still in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 Have never heard of this happening but there is always a first time for everything. Hope all goes well for the the rest of the litter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 Not heard of it in dogs but it can happen with cats. One cat of mine had a kitten & then a day & half later had another 2, all fine, which is why when I do matings there are only over 2 days when I am sure & see its happening. Curious over how many days you mated your dog ? As dogs can conceive from dual sires they obviously can carry from seperate matings. I wonder if pup was conceived from 1st try & others from later try. Possible ? Whatever reason its a miracle that ended well for sure. Good luck with the rest of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkidsmum Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 One of my friends had this happen a few months ago with her poodle . Dam aborted a dead pup then went on to deliver three healthy pups over a week later ..Her vet said they would all be dead but no ..miracles do happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partipaws Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 wow - just amazing - I wish you and your girl the very best of luck from now onwards and look forward to updates and the arrival! Also good luck with the little one too definitely deserves a name like miracle or something along those lines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Has literally just happened to Cockerlover and similar circumstances too I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 It would certainly be a shock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakbelgian Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 geee I would be panicking about the rest of the litter if I was you. Good luck with the rest of your litter. Your CC may quiz you about the ttwo different birthdates when you go to register the litter. I hope they believe you. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercharged Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 A simple DNA test to confirm parentage will sort that issue out (if it becomes one) Best of luck with the rest of the babies! S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 (edited) I have also had this happen with cats. I used to breed Cornish Rexs and had a queen give birth to a small baby about a week early, the the remainder of the litter later. All survived. On a separate occasion I had a queen give birth to 3 partitally developed premature kittens mid term, and manage to stop labour and maintain the pregnancy with the others. They were born several weeks later all fine. Rats, different again. They can carry multi pregnancies at the same time, from different matings, really bizzare And successfully give birth to them all, and feed them, no problems. Makes us humans look pretty basic in comparison Edited July 4, 2010 by dyzney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winpara Posted July 4, 2010 Author Share Posted July 4, 2010 (edited) Still here and still holding tight. Lone pup continues to do well and is gaining weight, tho more slowly than her adopted littermates. Mum's temperature finally dropped early this morning to 36.9 so I am hoping things will progress normally now. Wasn't going to bother with the ultrasound this morning after seeing the temp drop but thought if something ended up going wrong I would regret it so we went in... others still appear ok - good heartrates and movement (usually turning just as the vet zooms in to check the heartrate!) - I think they are sick of being looked at! :D We also took blood for another prog test but results wont be in until this evening - depending on the result we might be looking at a ceasar tonight or definitely tomorrow morning if she doesn't go into labour by then. ok so in the time it took to get home from the vet, organise the other dogs, make a cuppa and sit down to type the above... - she has popped out a puppy... closely followed by a second! Both are strong and healthy and looking good - and she is definitely in labour this time Edited July 4, 2010 by winpara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inez Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 you havent gone mad, had a bitch deliver two pupies 2 weeks early, no chance of survival barely had fur, then stop labour. put on antibiotiocs and hope and two weeks later the rest of the litter arrived pefectly healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Ive had bitches who aborted part of a litter and then a couple of weeks later had a normal delivery with beautifully healthy pups and I would think that is relatively common but 8 days early for a dog and still surviving is something I wouldn't have thought was possible. Bitches only ovulate once and the egg can only be fertilised 3 days after ovulation for a very short window. Dog sperm can live inside waiting for this event and slip in and fertilise the egg. So regardless of how many matings or when the matings occured all of the pups are due on the same day and have the same development. There's no way around that so as I said having a pup simply pop out and live without Mum showing signs of labour and so long before she does go into labour is definitely one for the record books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winpara Posted July 4, 2010 Author Share Posted July 4, 2010 (edited) Well, seems like we are done and dusted so thought I'd update... 8 more babies arrived which makes 9 including the one who couldn't wait. Sadly one girl couldn't be revived but the other 7 born today are doing well. Interestingly all are bigger than the one who was born early. The biggest being 100g heavier and the smallest is only a couple of grams heavier (and has almost mirror image markings). - ETA - I am speaking of her weight as it is today... not her birthweight which was much less. Looking at them their registered birthdate will be today and not 30/6. As the paperwork states "date litter born" and as far as I am concerned today is the day she whelped the litter - the other little girl was just a late term abortion IMO and a total miracle she is still with us :D - she definitely needs a special name tho To answer one of the earlier questions the bitch was mated only twice - on Thursday night and then Saturday morning (~36hrs between). Normally I let them mate once a day for as long as the bitch will accept the dog (and the dog is interested) but I had limited access to the sire as he has recently moved to a pet home and I didn't want to upset him too much. Edited July 4, 2010 by winpara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 This whole pregnancy is so weird. Bitches whelp 63 from ovulation no matter when they are mated. They usually conceive if mated up to 3 days before ovulation and 3-4 days after. Border Collies usually mate 24-48 hours after ovulation, almost never before. The fact that this litter arrived 59 days post mating means that she must have ovulated 4 days before you got the first mating and 6 days before the second mating. It is very unusual for a bitch to still stand 6 days after ovulation and to conceive 9 puppies with a mating 4 days after is pretty amazing. My guess is that with 9 on board she ran out of room for the last one but who knows? The early puppy was in fact only 4 days early so that accounts for how she has survived. If she had actually been 8 days early she would not have been developed enough. Good work anyway reviving her and keeping her going. She is one very special baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 It was a while ago but a friend of my mum's had a litter of pups (small breed so 2-4 pups) then a few days later, birthed one more. all survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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