Dog Behaviourist

[koalathebear]

I've decided to email a behaviourist/trainer in Canberra - Heike Hahner to discuss the possibility working with her regarding Elbie's car woes. I'm not sure how many other people have used her services, but I saw her recommended in one of the other threads.

While I would of course like to try to work through the problems myself, I'm worried about the behaviour our puppy Elbie is displaying when in the car. He gets very excited and anxious in the car. He is calmer when not strapped in - but that's just dangerous. When we strap him in i.e. hook a strap from the seatbelt buckle through a loop on his car harness, he totally freaks out. Today, we didn't have enough treats with us in the car and he started snarling and growling, turned extremely aggressive and started trying to bite me. It was a very freaky change in personality. Once out of the car, he was calmer again although he's been a bit on edge since - biting his bedding and when we tried to end playtime, he bit at my OH's arm (albeit through a thick hoody).

We have been working with him a lot to desensitise him to his leash, his car harness etc but the car travel itself continues to be problematic because even when he's in a calm drop position, the feeling of the car turning makes him panic - he stands up, tangles himself in the harness strap, panics and then turns aggressive. As explained in the puppy thread, we realise we're not suppose to be sitting with him in the back, but we've tried two different harnesses and he can wriggle out of both despite the snug fit so we need one person in the back just to supervise him but not to comfort/baby him.

We very much want to be able to have him go around in the car with us because he's a very sociable dog and his car anxiety/aggressive is quite upsetting. When getting a puppy we factored in vet fees, traditional obedience training - but know nothing about behaviourists and what to expect. Can anyone tell me what sort of things one would expect when you ask a behaviourist to help you work through aggression/fear issues with your dog? Generally how often would you meet with the behaviourist in a week? I realise it depends on the dog, the owners and the severity of the problem, but I just have no idea what to expect.

Thanks very much in advance!

Edited July 11, 2010 by koalathebear

[poodlefan]

Why can't he be crated in the car?

Sounds to me like you've got some quite fundamental issues to work through in additon to car travel.

Edited July 2, 2010 by poodlefan

[koalathebear]

Why can't he be crated in the car?

we can't get the crate to sit flat in our car. It would be tilted on an angle even if we put the back seat down.

[~*Shell*~]

What to expect is for you to realise how little you actually know about 5 minutes into your consult

I only saw a behaviourist once - that's all it took. Steve (k9 pro) was on email every week giving me tips and updating the program we were getting maximum results. I saw Steve for Zero's dog aggression (among other things) and he's been great. I can't say enough good things about him!

Make sure that you follow through on your program. Plenty of people run into problems or don't get results because they don't commit to it.

Edited July 2, 2010 by ~*Shell*~

[poodlefan]

Why can't he be crated in the car?

we can't get the crate to sit flat in our car. It would be tilted on an angle even if we put the back seat down.

Stick a towel under one end. It won't kill him to travel on an angle anyway. Sounds to me like he's panicking or fighting when restrained and that's something that needs to be worked on outside of the vehicle.

I only know Heike from the dog club years ago but she seemed to offer practical effective advice.

[huski]

What to expect is for you to realise how little you actually know about 5 minutes into your consult

I only saw a behaviourist once - that's all it took. Steve (k9 pro) was on email every week giving me tips and updating the program we were getting maximum results. I saw Steve for Zero's dog aggression (among other things) and he's been great. I can't say enough good things about him!

Make sure that you follow through on your program. Plenty of people run into problems or don't get results because they don't commit to it.

What Shell said

[persephone]

I suggest you ask some of these questions of the behaviourist You both will be working together- understanding of each other's role is important, I think.

I hope this step is a BIG help for you in understanding/managing your little boy.

Today, we didn't have enough treats with us in the car and he started snarling and growling, turned extremely aggressive and started trying to bite me. It was a very freaky change in personality. Once out of the car, he was calmer again although he's been a bit on edge since - biting his bedding and when we tried to end playtime, he bit at my OH's arm (albeit through a thick hoody).

THis is all a worry- and I hope you can video it, or arrange for the behaviourist to actually see it happening- so she knows exactly .

Looking forward to hearing updates

[Kavik]

Which way do you have the crate facing? I had mine in the direction door - door. Crate is the easiest way if they are panicking about the harness. Kaos used to panic in the harness (didn't bite though) and the crate was easier but he got used to it after short trips and necessity after my son was born (crate and carseat don't both fit!).

[KeeshondKrazy]

While I would of course like to try to work through the problems myself, I'm worried about the behaviour our puppy Elbie is displaying when in the car. He gets very excited and anxious in the car. He is calmer when not strapped in - but that's just dangerous. When we strap him in i.e. hook a strap from the seatbelt buckle through a loop on his car harness, he totally freaks out. Today, we didn't have enough treats with us in the car and he started snarling and growling, turned extremely aggressive and started trying to bite me. It was a very freaky change in personality. Once out of the car, he was calmer again although he's been a bit on edge since - biting his bedding and when we tried to end playtime, he bit at my OH's arm (albeit through a thick hoody).

Can anyone tell me what sort of things one would expect when you ask a behaviourist to help you work through aggression/fear issues with your dog? Generally how often would you meet with the behaviourist in a week? I realise it depends on the dog, the owners and the severity of the problem, but I just have no idea what to expect.

Thanks very much in advance!

I saw a behaviourist for my dominant aggressive dachshund Bubbi. The behaviourist took his lead and almost instantly Bubbi went berserk biting squealing growling spitting and the behaviourist just kept tugging the lead and making Bubbi heel. Basically, the behaviourist let Bubbi get out all his aggression/frustration until he was calm. The dog can only stay in that state of mind for a time until he has to come back down again. So hopefully the behaviourist will pick out what is really causing the aggression/anxiety in your pooch and help him get it all out. The behaviourist will also work on your energy, maybe now you are anxious in some way when strapping him in, but you don't realise it etc... Do try and take some videos/pictures/write descriptions of tail position/words you use/voice you use/clothes you wear etc in relation to this issue to help the behaviourist figure out potential triggers. They will probably do exposure therapy (like when people have phobias) building up to the actual strapping it, or if its a problem with you, it might be as simple as him/her taking the dog up to the car and just strapping him in (the behaviourist makes a different dog happen because they are different people with different energy).

It should be an absolutely amazing experience that will help you with any future problems. You shouldn't need to go more than once or twice if they are good and you follow up on instructions. I honestly believe its about energy and a short rehabilitation is all the pooch needs to get over his fear. Maybe you should also buy a soft muzzle just in case he is a bit bity on the day.

Let us know how it goes.

BTW my behaviourist was Ravi Wasan of featheredfriends.com.au and had an amazing rate for rescue orgs.

[buggerme]

Well I am using one as well ...

I think the best thing you can do is is to have a chat (in person, via email or on the phone) enouigh times until your comfortable to commit. I spent several days finding out what I could before I spent my cash your foolish not to really, but I guess that depends on your individual experience which I have bugger all.

What did / do I expect ?

Well I only have one expectation - Results. There is zero room for error in todays society and dogs.

So far, and Im only new to all this - K9 Pro has been brillant.

Nope - Im not biased, I just trust the guy, my research and have a 1000% commitment to follow what he tells me to do - to the letter.

[sheena]

I would be trying the crate idea, but make sure you do plenty of crate training with him & make the crate a real fun place to be. The crate has to become his place of sanctuary, somewhere where he can feel safe from all those things flying past the window....before you put it in the car. Cover it over (maybe just leave one end out) & just make small trips to start with. Susan Garret puts out a really good dvd called Crate Games.

Travelling in a car can be really scary for some animals...imagine all those things outside wizzing past...trees, fences, poles, animals, not to mention cars & trucks.

Edited July 7, 2010 by sheena

[koalathebear]

missposted

Edited July 9, 2010 by koalathebear

[koalathebear]

I suggest you ask some of these questions of the behaviourist :D You both will be working together- understanding of each other's role is important, I think. I hope this step is a BIG help for you in understanding/managing your little boy.

Thanks persephone - you've always been very sweet and supportive with your comments. It was a surreal day. The trainers at our obedience club (two specialising in border collies and one specialising in kelpies) have spent quite a lot of time with Elbie after hearing about our problems with him and they all assured us that Elbie was entirely normal, just behaving like a puppy, tht he was only 5 and a half months old, that we shouldn't 'freak out', that his behaviour was 'normal', that we were going to have a lot of fun with him and that he would be a great agility or obedience trial dog if we so chose.

Conversely, we had our visit today from the behaviourist for about two and a half hours - almost 3 and it was very illuminating. I think what she emphasised the most to us was the difference between obedience training and 'good manners'. The success that Elbie had had with obedience had given us a misperception of 'control' over our dog and an overstated perception of his progress. Along the way, we had let things slip like eating meals after the dog and going through doors after the dog and while that wouldn't be a big deal for some dogs - it has apparently reinforced some undesirable behaviours in our dog. She said that he was as very clever and lovable dog but that he was submissive and a bit timid and that with such dogs, it was important to handle them carefully because if they were put in a stressful situation - they would bite. She said that with such dogs it was very important to have structure and respect in place.

Thus, we have a lot of 'respect' work to do in the weeks ahead. My OH is in a much better position than I am because apparently Elbie has absolutely no respect for me whatsoever whereas he appears to have gained a degree of respect for my OH, although we were told that Elbie has very much manipulated things to his benefit.

We are to make him do more things for free, cut back on praise and treats and use body language to give the more critical commands rather than using voice/hand gestures. I felt as though I had been run over by a herd of Tibetan Mastiffs after the session because even she conceded that we had really tried to do everything right but not all things were entirely suitable for a dog like Elbie who has been bred to work, to take advantage, to manipulate the situation and to stay on top of things. I feel extremely upset with myself for having inadvertently created or at least contributed to the situation through my conduct but her view was that Elbie's still young, very smart and very trainable.

Anyway - as you mentioned, it was extremely illuminating and we did learn a lot about our puppy and ourselves and we have a lot of work ahead of us.

[Genabee]

Don't beat yourself up! You're a good puppy parent!!

Like children, all dogs come with their own personalities and as parents, we generally make the best decision we can on the day. It isn't always the best one when we look back on them.... but you live and learn.

You did the right thing by calling in help when you thought you needed it. If more people did that, there would be less scary dogs around!

[persephone]

I am glad you got some help :D

Hoping that it is help which will enable you to understand, and work better with, Elbie.

Did you get any clear explanation as to his specific behaviour in the car- and any way of stopping./managing it?

[K9Nev]

Don't beat yourself up! You're a good puppy parent!!

Like children, all dogs come with their own personalities and as parents, we generally make the best decision we can on the day. It isn't always the best one when we look back on them.... but you live and learn.

You did the right thing by calling in help when you thought you needed it. If more people did that, there would be less scary dogs around!

I was about to say the same thing ............don't blame yourself, you have identified an issue and have sought help which is all you can do and move forward from there :D You have a dog with some drive along with nerve issues which even for experienced and accomplished trainers is a difficult temperament to handle and takes special care which the behaviourist will teach you how to address. It's easy to blame incorrect handling being the cause of poor behaviour, but nerve issues isn't normal dog behaviour for the average owner to address with basic training practices.

Once you have learned how to address a difficult temperament, at the end of the day, the situation provides the experience to make you a better trainer. Anyone with basic knowledge can train an easy dog, but the good trainers are the one's who can rehabilitate the more difficult dogs

Cheers

Nev

[koalathebear]

Thanks for everyone's kind words.

I felt very exhausted and disappointed with myself on Sunday and was blaming myself for not knowing that Elbie needed more structure - but given that the negativity is a bad thing in itself which Elbie can pick up on, I've shaken myself out of it.

Also we've been working diligently with Elbie on the respect issues - we are making him give us space at meal times and around doorways - all without treats/praise or any form of visual/vocal cues. He's doing very well with food space. He has always been good about waiting for his food but that's with verbal cues from us, so now he's just doing it automatically with us being silent.

He's much better around doors and stairs - although he's still quite excitable around the front door and has habit of dashing up stairs first. His progress has been very encouraging - he's a smart little boy and he seems to be picking things up quickly - holding back and giving us space and only coming through the door when invited. Doing everything non-verbally is very difficult for me

persephone - the car issue was very baffling to the behaviourist. She thinks it's a tantrum and something that Elbie's putting on rather than real stress. She popped him in the backyard and he calmed down immediately, which is apparently something that he wouldn't do if he was genuinely stressed. We're going to continue working on desensitisation of the car and car travel but if that still doesn't work - we'll try a crate given that she says with working breeds, the motion of the car can overstimulate them.

She picked correctly that the things that Elbie chooses to be naughty about (harness, leash, towels etc) are the things that we place a high value on so we're working at making those things look worthless - at the same time, we're pumping up the value of his toys so that they're more attractive and able to distract/entice him when needed.

We're also holding back on the treats and the praise right now and making him do things for free - except for 'tricks'. His 'punishment' for inappropriate behaviour is a time-out which consists of tying him up for a couple of minutes. We don't want to use the crate as his sin-bin, nor do we want to pop him outside so the 'punishment' he seems to understand is that we tether him to the kitchen railing. It's only for 1-2 minutes and under our supervision - although we have to avoid making direct eye contact. He seems very aware that it's because he has been naughty. It's still very early days but we are very hopeful that we'll be able to work through it.

Edited July 13, 2010 by koalathebear

[Kavik]

With things like harnesses and leads - could it be more about restraint? That was one of my issues with Kaos. He didn't like when I first put the collar on him and tried to attack it. The harness was fine (he was older by then and used to straps and stuff) but the restraint in the car was the issue. Because the seat belt can be stretched by the dog he managed to get himself into a nice tangle. Now that I have a different strap for the car which he cannot make longer, he no longer gets tangled or panics. Nail clipping was also an issue, he used to try to bite me. We have resolved all of those issues with time, work and patience. And he is a top agility dog

[koalathebear]

kavik: This sounds so wrong but I'm so glad that you've also experienced a situation where your dog has tried to bite you because sometimes I've felt like there was something really weird/strange and extra horrible about the fact that Elbie tried to bite us/bit us even if it wasn't a very hard bite Sometimes I read posts and I marvel at and envy people with totally non-bitey dogs and wonder why I ended up with a mouthy puppy ...

I think the restraint thing is definitely a factor. He didn't like his collar at first but is now pretty chilled about having the collar put on him and never attacks it. The leash he's fine about us putting on him but when you walk him with it and he notices it, especially if he gets tangled - he starts attacking it and growling like a demon. Dog obedience trainer said it was a tug desire and we should use it, behaviourist said no tug games for Elbie were recommended.

The harness is mixed. He'll sit or stand very quietly to have the harness put on him now but you can tell he doesn't like it and because the harness loops over his right leg, the longer it takes to put on, the more likely he's going to squirm. Still, we put the harness and leash on him every meal time so he is letting us put it on him without too much fuss.

We also put the leash on him and take him out the front door and then bring him right back in in an attempt to minomise his excitement levels. Sometimes I'll walk with him in and out the front door four times and then head back into the yard. The problem is, Elbie generally knows when it's 'for real' because I'll bring my bag/jacket/keys etc I might have to make my acting more convincing

We had the same issue as you about tangling. The first harness had a strap that was too long and Elbie would fall down the footwell, the second looped into the seatbelt and he grew very tanged and upset and then wriggled out of it. Worse, Elbie learned how to press his paw on the seat belt release to let himself out

My OH has now modified that harness so that Elbie doesn't get tangled anymore, he can't release himself and he won't fall down the footwell. So now the only thing is getting him calm in the back - which I think is going to take a lot of "sitting in the car going nowhere" and treating him to getin and sit quietly.

Edited July 13, 2010 by koalathebear

[Kavik]

Don't worry, Kaos was quite the little terror at times when he was a puppy

I haven't met Elbie so can't say whether tug games would be good or not dependent on temperament, but I am working hard to try to get Kaos more comfortable tugging when out, and am determined my next dog will tug if I can't get Kaos to! However I'm not sure I would have really encouraged Zoe's tug (she has heaps of drive but not as good nerves) - as when she does tug it is noisy and I'm not sure about it with her. Kaos is not noisy and obviously happy when he does tug.