Where Does The Buck Stop

[inez]

hypathetical question. but i have seen a few instances and always wondered, why the breeder of a faulty pup is held automatically responsible but no mention of the breeder or breeders of the parents.

for example a friend bought two dogs from the same breeder, lovely looking dogs, bred from them, over half the litter developed HD and friend besieged with angry puppy buyers. had bought them as adult, already bred from, suspect the seller had already had the same result.

ended the friends dabble into the breeding scene, but always wondered, can the breeders of fault producing dogs also be appraoched for replacement or refund when dogs sold as breeding quality turn out to be genetic disasters?

where do others think the buck should stop?

[persephone]

I guess the breeder. It was their doing that the litter came into being. It is their responsibilty to research previous generations/ litters / have the breeding stock they own xrayed, blood tested....and then make the decision to mate the two dogs.

[MolassesLass]

I think the buck stops with the breeder of the "faulty" pup - the breeder of the parents has no say in what happens (unless they still own the dog) so it is not fair to blame them for anything.

In your example, if the dogs were sold with hip score results that are under the breed average and the litter turned out badly, then I would say "bad luck - such is breeding". If the dogs were bought with no hip scores or with bad hip scores then that was a really silly thing to do.

Also, if it was known that these two dogs had previously had a litter, did your friend ask for the details of how that litter turned out? Not asking this would be silly too.

[inez]

i agree, but i dont know the answer in the case of that scenario.

Another I watched unfold was another friend who has successive show bought puppies and ran on, hopfully to do well in the ring and later with the intention of starting their own kennel, fail their hip scores and rehomed for free so significant loss there, then decided to import a what she was told was a top quality pup and pay the breeder for the pup to be run on,shown by the breeder overseas, then be imported to australia. yes passed hip scores, show career cut short when accidental mating occured, the breeder of the dog in question then sold all the resulting pups and pocketed the money nothing was paid to the actual owner. I am talking over 10,000 dollars made from the "accidental' litter.

Finally decided maybe a better idea to give up on leaving her with her breeder so has it shipped to Australia without the showing part of the contract finished, mind u this dog was winning best in breeds before the accident so she did expect to be getting a nice sound dog?

One look at her on arrival and has entropian in both eyes, straight to the vet, desexed, eyes fixed and pet homed,

Surely this poor person should have had some recourse instead of losses by the thousands??? Well last count tens of thousands.

Edited July 2, 2010 by inez

[inez]

forgot to add, finally did have two nice girls passed all testing and did well in the ring. many years down the track two pups did develop HD scores by which time the dam had been retired.

now the breeder is a mess wondering how many others are going to come knocking. and yes both bitches have been desexed and no longer breeding that breed.

but why arent the breeders of the dogs supplied equally responsible? they were purchased in good faith, passed all tests yet as the breeder of the affected pups is wearing the guilt and the accusation of breeding faulty dogs? yet did not breed the parents of these two pups, their breeders are off the hook, i can understand the despair anyway.

Edited July 2, 2010 by inez

[Dogsfevr]

When you decide to breed you take on the issues that go with it plain & simple.

WE as breeders decide what we think is worthy of being breed from & take on the role of testing ,researching & asking questions fully aware of the issue's that are in the breed .

Breeders can either be very smart or there own worse enemy .

As for importing again that is a risk you take,our $8000 import is traveling Australia in a pet home.

[inez]

When you decide to breed you take on the issues that go with it plain & simple.

WE as breeders decide what we think is worthy of being breed from & take on the role of testing ,researching & asking questions fully aware of the issue's that are in the breed .

Breeders can either be very smart or there own worse enemy .

As for importing again that is a risk you take,our $8000 import is traveling Australia in a pet home.

sorry to laugh, (I hope your meaning it as read to raise a laugh) but maybe my friend might feel a little less lonely ill pass that on.

Edited July 2, 2010 by inez

[ShesaLikeableBiBear]

inez, I am finding your posts rather hard to understand and follow.

Am sorry I don't know how to quote from a previous post but perhaps you may enlighten us as to your statements?.

e.g. "another i watched unfold was another friend who has successive show bought" and "to be run on shown overseas then come".

As a breeder of over 25 years, as your avatar claims, please can you try and explain yourself a little better and perhaps check your spelling and grammar before posting.

YES I am being bitchy here

[fifi]

Hesap, I'm finding Inez's post difficult to follow as well, and wondering if English is not her/his first language ?

fifi

[ShesaLikeableBiBear]

Thanks, fifi, thought it may have been me being bitchy, but absolutely loathe people who post on here and can't be bothered checking their spelling and/or grammar.

[WreckitWhippet]

So far all I've seen is what looks like some good old fashioned breeder bashing and nothing but complaints.

[Dogsfevr]

So far all I've seen is what looks like some good old fashioned breeder bashing and nothing but complaints.

Actually when you look at all the posts by the OP there complaints

[inez]

i agree, but i dont know the answer in the case of that scenario.

Another I watched unfold was another friend who has successive show bought puppies and ran on, hopfully to do well in the ring and later with the intention of starting their own kennel, fail their hip scores and rehomed for free so significant loss there, then decided to import a what she was told was a top quality pup and pay the breeder for the pup to be run on,shown by the breeder overseas, then be imported to australia. yes passed hip scores, show career cut short when accidental mating occured, the breeder of the dog in question then sold all the resulting pups and pocketed the money nothing was paid to the actual owner. I am talking over 10,000 dollars made from the "accidental' litter.

Finally decided maybe a better idea to give up on leaving her with her breeder so has it shipped to Australia without the showing part of the contract finished, mind u this dog was winning best in breeds before the accident so she did expect to be getting a nice sound dog?

One look at her on arrival and has entropian in both eyes, straight to the vet, desexed, eyes fixed and pet homed,

Surely this poor person should have had some recourse instead of losses by the thousands??? Well last count tens of thousands.

Hopefully edited to make sense?

Did not realise that asking any question was deemed as having lodged a "complaint" ? Yes,I am (well I was) curious, watching the puppy thread unfold, the puppy buyer was told by all and sundry, if it cannot win then your entitled to your money back. The breeder has offered to take the pup back and all agreed this was the only ethical thing the breeder could do. (Have to admit did find myself wondering what if the breeder might have been expected to suppy a third replacement pup, and found myself wondering how many replacements was a buyer entitled to)

Yet looking back at the two who gave up their dream of founding a family of good dogs, for the reasons listed above you say that such sad outcome is "complaining" that in their case they bought with the intention of becoming a breeder of quality pups. In neither case did the dogs come up to scratch yet they are not entitled to the same curtesy as the pet/show pup owner?

Either way, as was commented above. all I said is complaints? No I rarely post. It is safer to read and say nothing. That way you do not attract attack.

Perhaps i was wrong to ask. The first question began me thinking about the case of the two i just mentioned. Apologies for making the mistake of asking.

Why bother wondering why show entries are down then?

Thats two that I know (and now you also know as well) why they are gone.

Goodness and Light or nothing.

You can rest in peace, lesson learnt. No more questions.

Edited July 2, 2010 by inez

[t-time]

I get it.

The buck has to stop with the breeder of the litter and the only recourse may possibly be if the previous generations had falsified Hip score paperwork.

HD is a funny disease and your friend who bred the litter should have been very specific when offering health guarantees on the pups. 2 parents with 0/0 scores can still produce HD affected pups and all he/she could do was to guarantee that that the the dogs she bred together had low hip scores *hopefully* ensuring a low incidence of HD in the litter. There is also the nature vs nurture component in HD where the new owners may have over-exercised or over-fed the pup creating the perfect environment for the issue to raise its ugly head. ;)

Unfortunately in your friends' case - it's just the (un)luck of the draw.

Entropian something else altogether but if the dog was winning BOB O/S, I have to question how bad was the entropian? Once again, surely after spending $$$ to import, the dog was also going to be eye-tested???

BUYER BEWARE.

[peaceful]

Can win BOB without beating another dog you know

Same as here

[BJean]

Can win BOB without beating another dog you know

Same as here

Yes that's right you can.

Are you inferring that an exhibit with very bad entropion would still get its championship or BOB?

Should there be a minimum number of entries before a breed can compete for BOB?

Do you think ANKC judges incompetent to be unable to assess a dog if it is the only entry for its breed?

[peaceful]

No

No

and No

Have you ever seen a dog become a champion that is a pet quality?

You cant tell me that it doesn't happen?

[supercharged]

I agree Peaceful, it happens more than you think.....I used to own one! Bought my girl as a pet (but on main papers) did obedience with her then thought " I'll give this showing thing a go..." titled her and she never had to beat another dog on the way. After a few years and more learning I realised she was not show quality nor breeding quality so had her desexed.

But surely on photos prior to purchase entropian would be seen? Or is it something more difficult to ascertain? Its not something I am familiar with....

S

[BJean]

No

No

and No

Have you ever seen a dog become a champion that is a pet quality?

You cant tell me that it doesn't happen?

Commenting on my breeds only:

yes I have seen a dog become champion that is not IMO breed quality

however

being breed quality or not is subjective

and what I deem breed qualty is through the lense my own bias and my interpretation of the ideal.

Just because I think a dog/bitch is substandard for my breeding program does not mean that the dog is not deserving of its championship title and of breed quality for another breeder with a different interpretation of the ideal.

On the OP topic ie: entropion

When looking at import prospects imo it is buyer beware and in some countries

entropion is accepted by some breeders, and in some countries dogs with entropion are shown and do well.

However I'd expect an importer of these breeds to know this and to take caution about what they import

ie buyer beware.

Any import prospect I look at video, high resolution photos of the dogs eyes

and the eyes of the parents etc