Behaviour Problem - Fighting Of An Evening...

[RedStafford]

Hi Everyone,

I have a bit of an issue with my two dogs I would like some help with - if possible even a point in the direction of a professional who might be able to help.

The dogs in question are,

An 8 year old shi-zu x Maltese desexed bitch. (Indy)

A 3.5 year old pure bred staffy bitch - still entire. (Cayenne)

The problem is when they are around inside and around us if we are relaxing (say sitting relaxing and watching tv) and the dogs are inside, Indy will be sitting on one lounge Cayenne might be on the other or just cruising around. Then Indy will growl at Cayenne just a little growl but this will set cayenne off and she will charge toward indy - in what might be rough play or possibly not playing at all and it takes human intervention to stop it - i.e we don't let them meet to see what will happen.

I don't know why Indy growls in the first place - if she senses a change in cayenne's energy or feels threatened?

Sometimes cayenne will ignore her and when she does she gets rewarded right away with praise and affection, this is working somewhat.

With Indy I was trying to correct her growling, if I intervene she just continue's growling, if I pick her up she growls a little more until she is in my arms properly. Any extra growling always carry's the possibility of setting cayenne off again!

I am not sure what to do. Tonight Indy was on the end of the lounge I was sitting on, Cayenne came past indy growled, Cayenne looked at me I say "good girl cayenne" as she ignored, she walked a couple of steps past indy, Indy growled again and cayenned turned and went her this is the first time they have come togeher. I pulled Cayenne away and some of indy's hair came with. Indy has a small scratch on her bottom eyelid also.

Now (25 mins later) they are both sleeping on the lounge with me - cayenne was up first and indy joined her later - if it happens this way (cayenne first then indy comes) there is never a problem. They also sleep out in the back verandah area and even though they have their own crates they more often than not are in one together come the morning.

The only time there seems to be a problem is when indy is laying around usually near one of us and cayenne comes into the vacinity.

Things I have been doing to try to help the issue.

*Walking them together

*rewarding cayenne for her correct behaviour (ignoring) and punishing her for incorrect - she goes outside for a couple of minutes if she arcs up. Sometimes I have moved her away and made her go into a down position and stay there until she calms down.

*I tried putting indy out if she growls but this didn't appear to make it better, infact in someways worse because indy would growl when in my arms and then cay would arc up while I was holding indy.

*we have made the house a quite space for the dogs - no playing and trying to correct over energetic bahaviour - thinking if we keep it calm it might help... but doesn't seem to have done much - usually the energy is calm when the growl and escalation happens...

My thoughts,

I have 2 things to correct I need indy to stop growling. but also I want to know cayenne is solid enough to ignore such behaviour.

not sure where to go from here...

bit of a long post i know, I don't want to have to only allow 1 dog in each part of the house at a time..... or worse.

Since starting to write this Indy has gotten off the lounge, had a drink gotten back on sniffed in cayennes ear and gone back to sleep...

IF cayenne had of got off to have a drink when she came thru the back door indy would have growled and from there who knows.....

Thanks for your help and time

[percyk]

our older bitch can be like this...she is 10 and the head of the dog household

she will growl when she is eating and the boys respect her

thats the key difference here i think

we have all our dogs desexed and the younger ones are boys who fall in line with this top bitch

in your situation you have an entire younger bitch who may well start to take umbrage at your swf telling her off and sometimes staffies can get really rough and unforgiving

then of course your littley is at serious risk

these situations can escalate

so please be very careful

dogs dont usually fight without a reason but the reasons can seem so trite from our point of view and sometimes we cant see the signals either

be careful not to leave food or toys and watch the lounge situation

as your indy grows older..your staffy could start to take her on more and more

there is a behaviourist in the southern subs of sydney...if you look in the yellow pages youll find him...the girls there will give you preliminary advice

many charge exorbitant fees just to speak on the phone with you but this guy's establishment seems pretty fair ...you can then choose to have a consultation or not

definitely is a job for a behaviourist

swf has no chance against a staffy..theyre the ones that often start the mischief but the staffy wont say no to finishing it

id not be leaving the two of them together alone

i dont know that desexing at this stage will do much cos even desexed bitches fight and i think i read here that entire bitches might be a bit more stable...hard to believe but i dont have any experience in that so i wont really comment

i wish you all the best

it is so scary to have this happening in your household and very disheartening but youre doing the right thing getting help early in the piece

[juice]

i'm sure more qualified dolers will be here soon to help , but sounds like you are punishing ,and rewarding the wrong way round.

indy is up with you, and telling cayene to go away, you are endorsing her behavoir by punishing cayane, and picking indy up.

[tdierikx]

It sounds like Indy is laying claim to you and/or the top position on the couch... Cayenne is reacting because she is now an adult and probably doesn't like being dictated to by Indy like she would have tolerated as a puppy.

Possible solution is to make both of them beds on the floor to snuggle on in the evening instead of allowing them on the lounge - that way they are both lowered to the same level and Indy won't be "protecting" her prime position on the couch. Cayenne doesn't seem to have quite the protective urge about the couch, which is why she allows Indy on after her with no issues. Future issues could be resolved by not having them on the couches at all if they are going to behave badly about it...

Another possibility is to have their own couch that only they are allowed on - and they aren't allowed on yours. I have a couch for my dogs, and they aren't allowed on mine - there are no issues because it is "their" couch, not a special place to be defended.

T.

[sas]

I'd be booting them both off the couch because they don't deserve to be there and implement NILIF 100% consistently whilst you wait for your appointment with a Behaviourist to show you how to manage your pack that doesn't see you as the Leader anymore.

[Kirty]

I was going to say the same this as sas. Don't pick up Indy, boot her naughty butt off the couch!

[Raelene]

As those above have said - Indy needs off the couch....

Why don't you PM Cosmolo on here - she could also likely provide some details for recommended behaviourists near you.

Is there any reason why Cayenne isn't desexed? Although not the answer to this issue, it may help a bit also.

Good luck

Raelene

[RedStafford]

Thanks for all of the replies. Much appreciated.

I think keeping them of the lounges and other furniture altogether could be a good idea, although I suspect if we use one dog bed for them inside if Indy is on first she won't let cayenne on... but 2 will sort it out... Just to address a couple of points raised in the replies :

I was going to say the same this as sas. Don't pick up Indy, boot her naughty butt off the couch!

I fully understand the reason behind this and I agree 100%. How am I to do this though if Indy is growling and cayenne is on the floor wanting to get it on... If simply push/move indy off the lounge onto the floor cayenne would get to her - that would solve the problem but not in an appropriate manor... (this is why I am thinking not letting them on the lounges is a good idea.)

ETA if I sort cayenne out by putting her out and then move indy off the lounge then indies punishment wouldn't be to long from the crime...

As those above have said - Indy needs off the couch....

Why don't you PM Cosmolo on here - she could also likely provide some details for recommended behaviourists near you.

Is there any reason why Cayenne isn't desexed? Although not the answer to this issue, it may help a bit also.

Good luck

Raelene

Cayenne isn't desexed because she was shown as a pup and still could be, but now I really don't see myself having time in the near future so the time has probably come to do it. Although I need to look into it further I wouldn't want to do it if it could bring about any other behavoural changes. Up until this point she has been perfectly behaved.

thanks again.

Edited June 29, 2010 by RedStafford

[Dogsfevr]

With Indy I was trying to correct her growling, if I intervene she just continue's growling, if I pick her up she growls a little more until she is in my arms properly. Any extra growling always carry's the possibility of setting cayenne off again!

Indy has you well trained,her reward for the behaviour is to be picked up by you,the crucial time to discipline is lost in the fact she got the human & won.

You need to outsmart her habit which is wanting you,if she growls she gets picked up ,like already mentioned no couch if she can't share

[wolfgirl]

I'd be booting them both off the couch because they don't deserve to be there and implement NILIF 100% consistently whilst you wait for your appointment with a Behaviourist to show you how to manage your pack that doesn't see you as the Leader anymore.

Fully agree with this advice.

Thanks for all of the replies. Much appreciated.

I think keeping them of the lounges and other furniture altogether could be a good idea, although I suspect if we use one dog bed for them inside if Indy is on first she won't let cayenne on... but 2 will sort it out... Just to address a couple of points raised in the replies :

I was going to say the same this as sas. Don't pick up Indy, boot her naughty butt off the couch!

I fully understand the reason behind this and I agree 100%. How am I to do this though if Indy is growling and cayenne is on the floor wanting to get it on... If simply push/move indy off the lounge onto the floor cayenne would get to her - that would solve the problem but not in an appropriate manor... (this is why I am thinking not letting them on the lounges is a good idea.)

ETA if I sort cayenne out by putting her out and then move indy off the lounge then indies punishment wouldn't be to long from the crime...

As those above have said - Indy needs off the couch....

Why don't you PM Cosmolo on here - she could also likely provide some details for recommended behaviourists near you.

Is there any reason why Cayenne isn't desexed? Although not the answer to this issue, it may help a bit also.

Good luck

Raelene

Cayenne isn't desexed because she was shown as a pup and still could be, but now I really don't see myself having time in the near future so the time has probably come to do it. Although I need to look into it further I wouldn't want to do it if it could bring about any other behavoural changes. Up until this point she has been perfectly behaved.

thanks again.

If you don't allow either dog on the couch that would be a very good start as it is this behaviour that sets off the incident, you need to show them you are the leader atm one is taking that position for you

[Aidan]

I agree with those who have said don't allow either dog on the couch and I am a "dog on the couch" kind of guy. Whatever the motivation (I won't speculate) from what you have described it is an antecedent for trouble and it certainly isn't setting you up for success in dealing with the problem.

However, I wouldn't boot Indy off the couch when she growls. Other dogs are often MORE than happy to finish off a disciplining job for you, which is not abnormal but could be a disaster. So it's better not to be going down that path, if she isn't on the couch in the first place half your battle is won before it starts.

Here is an exercise which is fantastic for multiple dog homes and it fits in well with your excellent policy of the house being a quiet, calm place: tether both dogs somewhere where they can't get to each other but not too far apart, make sure the tethers are good (e.g a staffy would be able to pull a couch by the leg if that is your tether point). Have mats down for both dogs. Ask the dogs to drop, but don't insist on a formal obedience drop. We want a relaxed, sleepy drop. Walk away a very short distance, if the dogs are down, return to each of them and reward with some attention. Never return to or pay attention to a dog who isn't staying dropped on the bed. Build up the distance, duration and distractions so that your dogs are bomb-proof and cannot be fooled into getting up (unless you ask them to). This doesn't take long with a tether and neither dog is likely to start anything, although it can be a lot easier to begin training each dog separately if it proves difficult for you. Later you would remove the tethers, then build up the behaviour again.

In the short term, both dogs will be safe from each other and in the long term they will have bomb-proof "long downs".

[RedStafford]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all the previous responses.

3 days of keeping the dogs off the lounges, they are slowly getting it - Cayenne the staffy can be quite stubourne somtimes, but gives up eventually...

I was just discussing with the OH whether we should have their beds together or apart on the floor? She thinks we should have them together to encourage them to be together. My concern is if they are together and indy decides to growl are when any better off than we were when they were alowed on the lounges?

What do you think?

Also should they be placed by our lounges or should we place them away (say on an adjacent wall) for a while? I would like them to be close to the lounges - there's a corner where we could put both beds together that is right inbetween the 2 lounges but is this the best place... or does it not really matter the fact they are on the floor should be enough?

I like the teahtering idea put forward by Aiden, I don't have a single object inside I could tether cayenne to though, she could pull a small car - probably a medium one! lol...

Thanks again.

[Rebanne]

seperate beds is what I would do, your smaller/older dog is the instigator in all of this, instead of the couch she will most likely try and guard both beds.

[tdierikx]

I'd be putting the beds a bit of distance away from the couch until your girls have the idea that they need to behave and lie on their own beds. Indy is growling because she is near you on the couch - so don't give her the opportunity to growl because her bed is near you either...

Try starting with the beds some distance from the couch, and slowly over a period of time you can move them a little closer to the couch if that's where you want them to be - if the girls are getting the idea that the beds are for them and the couch (and you) are not something to be guarded.

Aidan has some very good advice about the "long down" - I'd be working on that as well, so that if/when you move the beds closer to the couch, they will stay on them.

T.

[Christina]

Have they always done this ? Or is it a new thing ?

If its a new thing get Indy vet checked. On 2 occasions in the past I have had a younger dog fight with an old dog when they had lived together for years with no prior problems.

I seperated them totally but both older dogs did have health problems which surfaced some time after but would have been underlying / starting at the time.

[RedStafford]

Have they always done this ? Or is it a new thing ?

If its a new thing get Indy vet checked. On 2 occasions in the past I have had a younger dog fight with an old dog when they had lived together for years with no prior problems.

I seperated them totally but both older dogs did have health problems which surfaced some time after but would have been underlying / starting at the time.

It's a new thing, they are both going to the vets this week, its time for their checkups and we had already been wondering if she might be feeling poorly.

[Christina]

Ok, hope all is well but please have blood tests done on Indy your older girl too.

Vet did not find a problem on 1 of my dogs it surfaced 6 months later however if I had done the blood tests it would have been found but I just got a general check up not suspecting anything really I was just puzzled at the change in temperament & thought she may be sore somewhere I didn't know about. It was cancer, however don't think the worst.

2nd dog was starting with some scoleosis in his back which was making it sore. Not serious life threatening, He lived another 3 years before going downhill from other things.

[Snowysal]

Weve had this problem in the past but ours was primarily hormonaly induced with a phantom pregnancy - it has never been completly elliminated but we have adjusted our household accordingly. this was necessary for both the dogs and our own safety since we live out of town and an accidental bite needing medical attention is not quite so easy to to attend to.

Anyway we used the opportunity to introduce crates into our home and now they feature in our lounge. We keep our dogs seperate 98% of the time but also together because they are only in crates - this is rotated every couple of hours and the dogs are in the lounge with us 2 in crates and 2 out the ones who are out have access to the doggy door in the laundry and then the large dog yard out the back.

Necessary because they are mostly big dogs with plenty of power and they live with us as a pack and we have to retain pack leadership under our rules.I will add that the three big dogs are all bitches - the youngest is the only undesexed for showing purposes and the only small (JRT) is the male and he growls the most(failed rescue) so he has to be kept safe from the girls who are not in to taking too much lip from him.

I loved that comment ealier about most dogs being only too happy to finish off a disiplining for you - how true. Weve had dgs over my life that have been born house police - dobbing others in for misdemenours whenever they can - hilarious.

[RedStafford]

great this evening indy has decided to growl when being moved off the lounge... which sets the whole situation off again!

Off to the vet tomorrow.

[Aidan]

Get some big eye bolts and screw them into the floor or skirtings, you can usually hide them away a little, say behind a curtain or under the lounge. Skirtings often aren't very well attached, so you want to go through the skirting and into the framework behind.