Teaching A Seekback

[leopuppy04]

Hi all

Well I made a royal mess of teaching Leo how to do a seeckback. Seeing as it took him so long and also not wanting to stuff kinta up, I'm looking for some input on how you taught your dog to do a formal seekback.

We do heaps of hide and seek games around the house and now I want to begin making It more formal.

I'd love any ideas And suggestions :D

feel free to make it As idiot proof as possible!!

thanks!!

[shoemonster]

I'm no expert at all, but Mollys started doing hers, and we started (after the hide n seek games at home) on grass, with a few steps at a time, getting longer as she got the picture, making sure she was using her nose, and we've gotten up to a bit of a heel pattern with some turns with success

Sometimes I get someone else to drop the article, but other times I just drop it down my leg as we heel

How did you do it with Leo?

[The Spotted Devil]

Well I can't guarantee anything I suggest will work as we haven't pushed hard on this yet but Zig is a tough nut to crack.

After the hide and seek games in the house I took half a dozen items outside (wood, leather but not metal as he really struggles holding it although he tries hard!) and threw them one by one into the long grass to ensure he was using his nose. He really struggled with the nose bit so this was a good way to switch on that "find" means use your nose. I didn't worry about anything formal but let him see me throw them in the grass (had to wait until we had mastered fetch - that was a whole other story ) and as his enthusiasm started to build I gently restrained him by the collar and released him to "find" when he started pulling eagerly on the collar....like the restrained recall I guess. When he was super keen and happily finding the article, I would toss the article into the long grass then heel him in a small circle back to where we started and send him. Then I put him in a sit stay facing away from the long grass before throwing the toy, about turn and send. Just so he realised that no matter what, he had to put that nose to the ground and find it. When we progressed to straight lines on the grass it was nearly back to square one - Zig is normally really quick to generalise an exercise but this doesn't come naturally to him at all. I have tried on the forrest track in the middle of our walk and he nailed it - although it was a simple straight line, the distractions were huge and he was clearly scenting. We did it the other day for some friends and their 3 kids who were visiting and their presence (and cheering!) didn't affect him at all which is promising. When the local parks aren't quite so soggy I'll take this a bit further and we'll see where we're at.

[leopuppy04]

I'm no expert at all, but Mollys started doing hers, and we started (after the hide n seek games at home) on grass, with a few steps at a time, getting longer as she got the picture, making sure she was using her nose, and we've gotten up to a bit of a heel pattern with some turns with success

Sometimes I get someone else to drop the article, but other times I just drop it down my leg as we heel

How did you do it with Leo?

Pretty much like you did although the first few time I let him see where I put it.

Did you start with heeling stright off sm?

TSD interesting.... So you basically started as you would for the articles exercise??? How did you find he coped once you started adding turns etc???

[Staranais]

I only just started teaching seekback when I lost my last boy, but was working on it the way one trialler suggested to me, which is to backchain it.

I'm presuming your seekback is the same as ours - basically dog walks at heel, you drop item behind your back, you stop, turn & send dog off to backtrack & retrieve the item? All done in a nice tall grassy field so the dog has to use his nose to find the item, not his eyes?

So, this is the way it was explained to me:

Start with a dog that can already track reasonably well.

Get your dog used to running a short seekback-style track, but do it just like you normally would run a track, with you following behind on a line & big party when he finds the item.

Then work on removing the line & having him track off leash.

Then add the retrieve element, so you stay where you are & ask him to return with the item to you before the party happens.

Once you have the seekback/retrieve bit down, then work on it from the other end & add the formal heeling before you turn round & cue the dog to track.

Like I say, we didn't have time to train more than step #1 before I lost my old boy, but if I do seekback with my new girl, this is the way I'll train it (unless I hear any better ideas in this thread)!

Edited June 29, 2010 by Staranais

[Seita]

Hey LP, I too had a lot of difficulty teaching Ella this but what ended up working reallly well for us was to always use a start peg. And to begin with drop the article at the start peg so the dog sees you drop it then step over it and heel a few meters before turning around and sending your dog. Increase distance until dog is reliably going back to the peg to find it, then start dropping it without the dog seeing it still at the start peg. Again when dog is consistently finding it you start occasionally dropping it a step or 2 from the peg. Still in a straight line at this stage, I didn't add corners until Ella was reliably going back to the peg to find it and then tracking towards me. Then added a corner but dropped the article at the peg again and again built this up till I could drop it before, on or after the corner (both left and right corners) and then repeated until I could do a full heel pattern!

I tested her out the other night and did a heel pattern where the article was dropped in the far back corner behind the box and I walked back to the start peg end of the ring. She went straight to the peg and searched loosely along the track till she found it!

Before I retrained the seekback I had her looking all over the place and while she usually found it, she took an age to find it! I gave this method a shot and was pleased with how it went! Thanks to Ptolomy for sharing it with me!

[The Spotted Devil]

TSD interesting.... So you basically started as you would for the articles exercise??? How did you find he coped once you started adding turns etc???

I figured that if we are going to use the same word as quite a few people on here suggested that we do - then find just means use your nose, if that makes sense. I guess that was my biggest hurdle - he relies heavily on his eyes unless it involves someone's @r$e

When I started heeling in a straight line and dropping the article, oh my goodness, but he completely fell apart but I tried to keep it light and fun and supported him a lot as he would give up really quickly. Once he realised that there was ALWAYS an article there for him to find (and ALWAYS a bloody good reward at the other end) he came on in leaps and bounds and his persistence really increased. I've only just started to add turns and you can see the penny hasn't quite dropped but he never gives up until he's found it because he's learned that it's ALWAYS there. Sorry - I'm really crap at explaining these things because I'm always experimenting with Zig! He's a dog that ultimately needs to be really confident in what I'm asking and what he's doing which is why I'm loathe to enter him in a trial 'just to see how he goes' - he just wouldn't cope.

[shoemonster]

Yeah I started with heeling, but Id heel forward, drop it without her seeing after 2 or 3 steps and then take another 2 or 3 and send her to find it

At home with hide and seek Id make her wait in a different room to me so she was used to waiting and not seeing me with the article and where it was put

Once she was reliably finding it with a short heel, I would put one turn in, say 6 steps drop, 3 steps turn 3 steps send, I kept it really short and built it up slowly

Talking about it now I need to get back into it!

ETA same as TSD, wanted her to know that find means use your nose too, so used that at home and out

Edited June 29, 2010 by shoemonster

[leopuppy04]

Hey LP, I too had a lot of difficulty teaching Ella this but what ended up working reallly well for us was to always use a start peg. And to begin with drop the article at the start peg so the dog sees you drop it then step over it and heel a few meters before turning around and sending your dog. Increase distance until dog is reliably going back to the peg to find it, then start dropping it without the dog seeing it still at the start peg. Again when dog is consistently finding it you start occasionally dropping it a step or 2 from the peg. Still in a straight line at this stage, I didn't add corners until Ella was reliably going back to the peg to find it and then tracking towards me. Then added a corner but dropped the article at the peg again and again built this up till I could drop it before, on or after the corner (both left and right corners) and then repeated until I could do a full heel pattern!

I tested her out the other night and did a heel pattern where the article was dropped in the far back corner behind the box and I walked back to the start peg end of the ring. She went straight to the peg and searched loosely along the track till she found it!

Before I retrained the seekback I had her looking all over the place and while she usually found it, she took an age to find it! I gave this method a shot and was pleased with how it went! Thanks to Ptolomy for sharing it with me!

Sieta - this is one that appeals to me after talking to a few people also. I have a few questions:

1) what do you use as a start peg?

2) did you find the dog took a long time to connect the 'go back to start' peg with 'start to use your nose'

3) Did you find the dog quickly picked up on the visual/ meaning of the start peg?

[shoemonster]

Just thinking, Ive been lucky with molly cos she scented my track pretty quickly, I think Ed will be a different story when he learns

[superminty]

Perfect timing LP, I need some help on this too!

I trained it initially the way shoemonster did but 99 times out a hundred she would know where I had dropped it. Then all she would do is hare back to the place where she thought it was. And she was usually right.

If by some miracle she doesn't see/hear/sense me drop it, she uses her nose and while she eventually finds it, she is all over the place. If I get someone else to place the article (straight lines only), she goes back to where I handed the article over and starts her search there but doesnt really seem to be following the track. She is certainly using her nose, but I think really has no idea about the tracking bit. It's like she can pick up my track but doesn't know what to do with it.

So I am going to teach her to track first, then give Staranais's way a go - sounds good to me.

[kathq]

Sieta - this is one that appeals to me after talking to a few people also. I have a few questions:

1) what do you use as a start peg?

Dont do what I did the other day. Used her rolled up gloves as the start point. I can be an idiot sometimes she tracked back of course found the gloves and brought them to me.

I found it helpful to train quite regularly with ropes up. The dog learns the limit of the search area and is less likely to back track out the gate in a trial. (Not that I've trialled much)

[leopuppy04]

Perfect timing LP, I need some help on this too!

I trained it initially the way shoemonster did but 99 times out a hundred she would know where I had dropped it. Then all she would do is hare back to the place where she thought it was. And she was usually right.

If by some miracle she doesn't see/hear/sense me drop it, she uses her nose and while she eventually finds it, she is all over the place. If I get someone else to place the article (straight lines only), she goes back to where I handed the article over and starts her search there but doesnt really seem to be following the track. She is certainly using her nose, but I think really has no idea about the tracking bit. It's like she can pick up my track but doesn't know what to do with it.

So I am going to teach her to track first, then give Staranais's way a go - sounds good to me.

yup this is my issue with Leo too!!! So while K is a different dog, I don't want to go through all the issues I had with him and thinking 'he's got it, oh wait no he doesn't!"

I think L understands the point of the exercise but it really was his confidence levels (too mainy failed attempts) and the lack of the 'tracking' that caused so much heartache.

for me, I'm a fan of Sieta's theory as I've heard from many that this is quite effective. I guess I want a bit more clarification and understandin before we begin. Until then, it's 'hide and seek' at home!

[ness]

I have posted previously what I was shown and Ness has a very reliable seekback and was doing full length patterns inside a fortnight.

LP I have used an assorted variety of things for start pegs but mostly I just use a cone. I haven't had to many issues with variation in the peg.

Basically what I was told to do was drop it at the start peg and heel off like Seita. I would then very quickly add a left turn or a right turn. Making sure I went both directions equally. Then I quickly kept adding turns and eventually got out to a full length pattern and then started dropping it behind my back. Only at that point did I then start varying where I was dropping the article.

I will use a similar method when I teach Kenzie . Ness has only ever missed 1 seekback in her life and that would be both training and trialling and she was once the only dog to find the seekback in the ring.

[Seita]

Hey LP, I too had a lot of difficulty teaching Ella this but what ended up working reallly well for us was to always use a start peg. And to begin with drop the article at the start peg so the dog sees you drop it then step over it and heel a few meters before turning around and sending your dog. Increase distance until dog is reliably going back to the peg to find it, then start dropping it without the dog seeing it still at the start peg. Again when dog is consistently finding it you start occasionally dropping it a step or 2 from the peg. Still in a straight line at this stage, I didn't add corners until Ella was reliably going back to the peg to find it and then tracking towards me. Then added a corner but dropped the article at the peg again and again built this up till I could drop it before, on or after the corner (both left and right corners) and then repeated until I could do a full heel pattern!

I tested her out the other night and did a heel pattern where the article was dropped in the far back corner behind the box and I walked back to the start peg end of the ring. She went straight to the peg and searched loosely along the track till she found it!

Before I retrained the seekback I had her looking all over the place and while she usually found it, she took an age to find it! I gave this method a shot and was pleased with how it went! Thanks to Ptolomy for sharing it with me!

Sieta - this is one that appeals to me after talking to a few people also. I have a few questions:

1) what do you use as a start peg?

2) did you find the dog took a long time to connect the 'go back to start' peg with 'start to use your nose'

3) Did you find the dog quickly picked up on the visual/ meaning of the start peg?

1 - I use a small white plant pot cos it's small to carry with me when I'm out at the park but I try and use a variety of objects (jump bars, witches hats etc) so she learns to generalise what the start peg actually is.

2 - Ella got the go back to the peg idea pretty quickly and then when I started dropping it away from the start peg she immediately went to using her nose as I'd done alot of find it games and I use the same command as my scent work so she knows she has to use her nose

3 - Yep, once I varied the object she clued on very quickly. For a while I was using the plant pot and then took her to training and used a witches hat and she had no concept of that being the start peg. But after mixing it up a bit she quickly got it! I was using a brown pot to start with and she had trouble with that so switched a white one so she could actually see it!

[leopuppy04]

So at the moment what I'm using for a start peg is an equivalent of a bamboo stake painted white. Do you think this is effective seeing that we mostly have pigs tails for a start peg, or is a cone better???

[ness]

LP I had a short bit of 15mm PVC pipe with a screw in the bottom of it that I used for ages as my start peg with very little hassle. I used that as it fitted in my bumbag when I'd go to the park to train. It was probably only about as long as a seekback if a fraction longer.

We have always had cones at training.

Edited June 29, 2010 by ness

[bedazzledx2]

Interesting what the different states use for the start peg. Some just have a disc on the ground, others have a cone or a post. WA have a figure 8 post which is quite visible. I'm always concerned when I see a disc on the ground but so far we've had no problems (touch wood!)

LP I had a short bit of 15mm PVC pipe with a screw in the bottom of it that I used for ages as my start peg with very little hassle. I used that as it fitted in my bumbag when I'd go to the park to train. It was probably only about as long as a seekback if a fraction longer.

We have always had cones at training.

[Staranais]

Interesting what the different states use for the start peg. Some just have a disc on the ground, others have a cone or a post. WA have a figure 8 post which is quite visible. I'm always concerned when I see a disc on the ground but so far we've had no problems (touch wood!)

LP I had a short bit of 15mm PVC pipe with a screw in the bottom of it that I used for ages as my start peg with very little hassle. I used that as it fitted in my bumbag when I'd go to the park to train. It was probably only about as long as a seekback if a fraction longer.

We have always had cones at training.

I don't think we even use a start peg, in the trials I've watched the handler & dog have just been sent over the fence into the paddock & told to start walking.

[Seita]

Interesting what the different states use for the start peg. Some just have a disc on the ground, others have a cone or a post. WA have a figure 8 post which is quite visible. I'm always concerned when I see a disc on the ground but so far we've had no problems (touch wood!)

LP I had a short bit of 15mm PVC pipe with a screw in the bottom of it that I used for ages as my start peg with very little hassle. I used that as it fitted in my bumbag when I'd go to the park to train. It was probably only about as long as a seekback if a fraction longer.

We have always had cones at training.

Wow I've never seen a disk, we use a white post, sometimes they have a sign that says start on top but for most clubs it's a stake/post thingy that's about hip height. I'd be worried too if I encountered a disk but I trust that Ella would figure it out eventually! LOL

LP - my plant pot is only about 15cm tall so it's not very big but cos it's white it's enough for Ella to see, but I'd definitely mix it up as often as you can so your dog learns to generalise what the start peg actually is!