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[inez]

Ive a friend recently bought a puppy to show, it was assessed before purchase by not only its breeder as promising to be show quality. my friend also had it looked at by a number of judges as well. She was told it should do quite well, looked a very nice pup, correct bite for its breed etc.

Now its 6 months old has been told its going off type, the teeth are going out and has been dudded by the breeder and to get her money back? How can so many people have been so wrong when she was thinking of getting it in the first place. Didnt just ask the breeders opinion before taking the pup.

How often does this happen. My friend is devestated as she loves the puppy dearly but she wanted to be able to show and naturally win

Is or isnt the sale of a puppy on main register a guarantee the puppy will mature to be show quality, and if not she can return it and get a refund?

My friend is just devestated to be told the breeder must have known the puppy was not up to the standard she thought she was getting.

Is there a cut off date that a refund can be to be asked for by, or is it once it is known the puppy is not turning out as it should be?

This is such a sad time for my friend who was so excited to begin showing. Does this sort of thing happen very often

Edited June 28, 2010 by inez

[pixie_meg]

is or isnt the sale of a puppy on main register a guarantee the puppy will mature to be show quality, and if not she can return it and get a refund?

I'm pretty sure selling a pup as a show pup can only be a guess. How can one seriously guarantee how a pup will grow. And even if it was correct type theres no guarantee it would become a champion. Its a gamble. No fault of the breeder or judges, just bad luck. why be bitter. Its like children. the cutest baby can become an ugly adult. and vice versa.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

There are no guaruntees, you'll note the breeder used the word "promising". Plenty of dogs on main don't fulfil their potential.

It may be a breed that goes through the "uglies". She should be careful not to jump to conclusions about what is going on, the dog may yet turn out to be a nice example of the breed.

Edited to put in a missing verb.

Edited June 28, 2010 by SkySoaringMagpie

[lappiemum]

Ive a friend recently bought a puppy to show, it was assessed before purchase by not only its breeder as promising to be show quality. my friend also had it looked at by a number of judges as well. she was told it should do quite well, looked a very nice pup, correct bite for its breed etc.

now its 6 months old has been told its going off type, the teeth are going out and has been dudded by the breeder and to get her money back? how can so many people have been so wrong when she was thinking of getting it in the first place. didnt just ask the breeders opinion before taking the pup.

ho often does this happen. my friend is devestated as she loves the puppy dearly but she wanted to be able to show and naturally win

is or isnt the sale of a puppy on main register a guarantee the puppy will mature to be show quality, and if not she can return it and get a refund?

my friend is just devestated to be told the breeder must have known the puppy was not up to the standard she thought she was getting.

First thing is that there are no guarantees with a show prospect - if the breeder genuinely thought at the time of sale that the puppy was show quality, and there were not vetrinary reasons to say otherwise, than it is difficult to prove otherwise. This is one reason that I wouldn't sell at a different price for pet to show - that infers a guarentee that you just can't make.

The next thing I would say, however, is that I know in my breed, puppies at 6 months can be rather unproportional and be going what we affectionatly refer to as the 'uglies'. They usually come out the otherside lovely, but its this awkward in between bit that's rather startling. I have an 8month old girl who has half her puppy coat and is arse high - still wondering were my beautifully proportioned 3 month old went! - but I can also see where she is developing nicely. This is a rather nervous time if you show - you never quite know what is happening with these growth spurts, and ofcourse, its also those fun 'teenage' years where they do silly things, like bark at ballons!

As you have said teeth, though, it would be unusual for the bite to suddenly go off - has your friend seen a vet specialist on this? And what does the puppy's breeder say?

Finally, I would say that there are some rather unpleasent people out there in the show world (or who may not show, but be rival breeders) who would like nothing better than to see a potentially successful show prospect from a competitor not make it to the ring. The advice given to your friend may be correct and accurate, or it may be malicious - I would certainly get other opinions, and give the pup more time to mature.

[ellz]

As you have said teeth, though, it would be unusual for the bite to suddenly go off -

I would say this is a very much a breed dependent thing. I've seen bites in a few breeds go wrong after 6 months of age, even to as old as 18 months of age.

As for the rest. A breeder doesn't have a crystal ball on which to depend. They can place a puppy in a show home as a "show prospect" or as they told your friend, as a "promising puppy". That doesn't mean that Mother Nature is going to play ball and that the puppy will ultimately turn out as a show dog which is really a very subjective term anyway. I think every breeder/exhibitor will tell you about the dogs they see in the show ring which they wouldn't be seen on the end of the lead with.

I would think it wouldn't be fair to completely discount the puppy until it has reached the end of the "usual" growth and development period for the breed and the individual bloodlines (some lines in Staffords for example bloom early, yet others look like nothing on earth until they are 12 - 18 months old or even later sometimes) and that the breeder should hopefully be a resource that would be useful with this type of information.

[SparkyTansy]

inez, if you are a breeder over 25 years, surely you would have seen this yourself?

There is no guarantee for any puppy with potential to be shown, unless you have a crystal ball!

as a breeder you can only do so much and the rest is a gamble...

Two dogs with good hip scores might still produce a pup with HD

A puppy might not have both testicals descend

Feet, coat, pigment, ears, eyes can all change - nothing is a guarantee!

[mirawee]

Dogs sold on main register are generally shown as show potential not as a show dog. However some breeders may allow you to return the pup and get another show potential puppy - that doesn't mean it will turn out any better and they are by no means obligated to do so. Why do you think so many pups are run on by breeders and then rehomed into a pet home?

And as has been said, 6 month old puppies can look absolutely shocking One of the biggest winning Group 5 dogs in WA did very badly as a youngster. What has the breeder said?

[Bilbo Baggins]

The teeeth in Cavs can definetly go off. But usually fix once the head matures.

What breed is this pup.???

[lappiemum]

As you have said teeth, though, it would be unusual for the bite to suddenly go off -

I would say this is a very much a breed dependent thing. I've seen bites in a few breeds go wrong after 6 months of age, even to as old as 18 months of age.

As for the rest. A breeder doesn't have a crystal ball on which to depend. They can place a puppy in a show home as a "show prospect" or as they told your friend, as a "promising puppy". That doesn't mean that Mother Nature is going to play ball and that the puppy will ultimately turn out as a show dog which is really a very subjective term anyway. I think every breeder/exhibitor will tell you about the dogs they see in the show ring which they wouldn't be seen on the end of the lead with.

I would think it wouldn't be fair to completely discount the puppy until it has reached the end of the "usual" growth and development period for the breed and the individual bloodlines (some lines in Staffords for example bloom early, yet others look like nothing on earth until they are 12 - 18 months old or even later sometimes) and that the breeder should hopefully be a resource that would be useful with this type of information.

I take that point - and agree that its better to wait a bit. I know of some Lappie lines that aren't fully mature until they are between 3 and 5 years!

[Keshwar]

I may be being a tad cynical here but who are the people saying this stuff?

Has your friend gone back to the original people and asked their opinion again?

How has the pup been going in the ring? Has it been winning?

[whippets]

I don't understand how the topic heading relates to the post.

Anyway, keep hold of the puppy, he/she could be going through the uglies. I know with my whippet dam line they don't even blossom till 3 years of age. That's a hell of a time to wait but worth it.

You need patience breeding dogs and owners of potential show pups should exercise that same patience. Unfortunately there are some who think that buying a show prospect entitles them to a group sash every weekend and a guaranteed champion.

[oakway]

Yes we all suffer from this.

Best Baby Puppy In Show one month and a pet in someones back yard the next.

[Tansy]

Why is the opinion of the people commenting on the pup now worth more than the opinion of the people who commented before she bought the pup? Unless the puppy has a disqualifying fault (for example, unaccepted colour or undescended testicle in a male), then what is 'show quality' is really quite subjective.

This topic reminded me to check the mouth of a girl I have here who is 15 months old - her mouth wasn't correct 2 months ago, but lo and behold, it is now. Not impossible for teeth to change up to 2yo in my breed. I does depend on the headshape and quite how 'wrong' the bite is, but ours can go from reverse scissor to level to scissor. By the way, I know some breeds take bite extremely seriously, but even if it is incorrect, it is only one aspect of the dog.

As others have said, a lovely baby does not necessarily make a lovely adult. We often joke if a baby has a sucessful Baby Puppy career, "well, that one won't make it". LOL

If your friend has trust in the breeder I would be asking their honest opinion, but without getting their back up. The breeder might be able to see the potential that others are missing, or might even suggest leaving the baby at home to mature a bit more. Also, genetics aren't the only thing that makes a good dog - dn't forget diet, exercise, training and socialisation.

[Rysup]

I have not read all the replies.

When I pick a puppy at 8 or 9 weeks, I then close my eyes, and do not look again until the dog is 18 months old. Many, many, many nice dogs go "off" somewhere in the middle, and its just not fair on yourself or the dog to pick them apart until they have finished growing.

I would never throw out a 6 month old puppy. Leave them at home to grow up some, sure, but time can often bring things right. If they get to 18 months old and still no signs of improvement, then yes I would find the dog a pet home and try again.

[Aziah]

I have not read all the replies.

When I pick a puppy at 8 or 9 weeks, I then close my eyes, and do not look again until the dog is 18 months old. Many, many, many nice dogs go "off" somewhere in the middle, and its just not fair on yourself or the dog to pick them apart until they have finished growing.

I would never throw out a 6 month old puppy. Leave them at home to grow up some, sure, but time can often bring things right. If they get to 18 months old and still no signs of improvement, then yes I would find the dog a pet home and try again.

:D

ETA: too many people make decisions on pups they've run on at less than appropriate ages...if you see lots of potential at 8 weeks run them on and allow them the time to grow through all those growth spurts and changes before making a decision.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Aziah

[ellz]

Oh doG! Tell me about it.

Can you imagine what we thought when we realised that we owned THIS at 6 months of age?

Thankfully, 4 months later....he looked like THIS!!

[oakway]

Oh doG! Tell me about it.

Can you imagine what we thought when we realised that we owned THIS at 6 months of age?

Thankfully, 4 months later....he looked like THIS!!

Holey shmoly, I think I would have had heart failure.

With my breed the only ones I let go early are the over sized ones. Every thing else I run on.

They can go off badly but come back later on.

[ellz]

Holey shmoly, I think I would have had heart failure.

I was very thankful that the ANKC computer was down and I decided not to show him as a Baby I can tell you! :D

That over there

<<<<<<<<<<< is the same dog about 3 years later! He came out of the uglies very nicely!

[-Megz-]

I had some fun finding some very nice Whippet's in the kennels the other day. They are 3 now - just long enough I thing

[WreckitWhippet]

There is no " show quality" in a baby puppy, just "show potential" and there's a hell of a lot of uglyness between 3 and 18 months of age, sometimes longer.

Some people need to be more patient and forget about the winning.